“Everything is terrible”


“I never put anything worth seeing on Facebook they don’t know that much about me”

Bitch Facebook can show you a picture ask you 20 questions about it and based on those questions they can probably tell you where your wedding ceremony was.

“I won’t be affected by advertisments”

Good luck! No I’m not talking to you I’m talking to your parents. Hopefully they got you sterilized.

“Every language has advantages and disadvantages”

Right but not the same amount. For the sake of brevity I’m still going to go with wrong. Unless you care to name some
Visual Basic advantages?

“If it gets the job done it’s good enough”

Wrong. Unless you have to maintain your own code and you never quit your job. Then make my day.

“C# fixes the problems in c++”

Sounds to me like you don’t understand a whole lot about c++.

“It’s easier to write java code than c code”

Yeah it’s also easier to walk than it is to run what’s your point? You want to be fat forever?

“Why don’t you respect other people’s choices?”

Some people choose Windows, and some people choose heroin. Are we splitting hairs?

“There are things you can do in C# that you can’t do in c++”


“C++ is missing features”

Yeah because if it wasn’t then they’d be running the risk of shit stained ass wipes like you using them and fucking up your designs.

“Windows has gotten better”


“Every text editor can be good if you learn how to use it”

I dare you to pit 10 average vim users against 10 average vscode users and see who finished first on average. Not the same.

“I don’t have time for projects”

But you have time to whack off once a day and watch tv.

“I’m under so much stress”

Me too.

“I want to be a game dev”

It takes a very unique type of person to be a game dev without losing your enthusiasm for games forever after about a year of work.

“I want to make more of an impact”

Said every generation of young people ever. Just fucking do something you like.

“I like C#”

I had to design a custom compiler for c# once and the language spec would horrify you once you understand what’s really happening with all these useless party tricks. You don’t know what you are talking about and should leave.

“Functional programming is the future”


“Gmail is the best”

Why? Because it’s free? I can kick you in the nuts for free if you want.

“The internet is the future”

Yeah we figured that out in 1996 grandpa, and darpa figured it out in 1982.

“Netflix is the best bang for the buck”

Great! Sign me up I want to pay them so I can subconsciously be more glued to my tv. Having no idea how I’m really paying for entertainment is good.

“Got any questions about propane?”

Or propane accessories?

  • 7
    "Every text editor can be good if you learn how to use it" πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘
  • 8
    Quality rant πŸ‘Œ
  • 13
    I agree with about half. Im under the impression that c++ has absolutely every feature a language can have. C is a lot easier than java. You still sound like my friend who drools over c++ but cant write a quicksort. Nobody watches tv anymore.
  • 2
    However your last two points kind of conflict, one being about how bad TV is and one being a reference to an amazing TV show
  • 0
  • 4
    Favorited πŸ™‚
  • 1
  • 2
    The amount of frustration this rant conveys is tasty.
  • 16
    O come on, half of this shit is self-contradictory or demonstrably incorrect πŸ˜‘
  • 0
    taste the meat, not the heat
  • 1
    Just exactly what I think of when it comes to Netflix, people always tell me get out of your cave and watch Netflix πŸ˜’πŸ–•
  • 6
    Your c# things actually are possibly in c++:

    LINQ: https://cpplinq.codeplex.com

    Extension Methods: Syntax sugar the living hell out of function pointer and lambdas.
    Not to say that doing any of this in c++ is a good idear.

    Anonymous Objects: Probably possible with a map of names and void*. Maybe write a get Method to do the typecasting.

    In this case, I mean syntax sugar as using Macros.
  • 6
    @Batburger correct. C# pretends to be able to do extra crap but really it’s just runtime implementations masked by a compiler. If you want to do something in c++ you can. It’s fully static and doesn’t give overly dynamic shit for free.

    @AndSoWeCode lol at the show you a Linux distro part, honestly sounds like you’re being sarcastic. “Show me a Linux distribution that lets me use Microsoft word haha lol”

    These things you have listed are more or less c# party tricks, my friends who work in c# spend half their time undoing code that uses that and writing it out properly LINQ, reflection) for a living. That’s how poor the performance is, there’s also huge design problems though.

    Nice try with visualbasic by the way. I used to work with vb6 and while there’s some truth to what you say, there are a lot of other languages that are easier to read imo.

    And holy fuck it was slow. Could literally see the screen draw.
  • 3
    @Kodnot then demonstrate.
  • 3
    @jeeper there are no tv references that I’m aware of in this rant.
  • 4
    @BindView no, c++ some very specific things were left out. It’s structured and working within the confines of strong types is strictly enforced, no reflection, etc. But that’s what you want. None of the fluff features that sell undergrad students on it.
  • 3
    To be fair tho, people who use reflection in anything enterprise usually get fired the day after
  • 1
  • 0
    @BindView i can attest to this.
  • 1
    @BindView hopefully I made it clear that the stuff in quotation marks was idiots speaking and the stuff out of quotes was my response, I do believe c is easier than java personally.
  • 5
    Though I do find gmail fitter to my usage. Maybe it's not the best, but it's good for me.

    I do find windows 10 better for daily use and for gaming. The fact they are in my pants now doesn't affect the quality of day to day usage, which to my experience is good.

    I use sublime over vim, because vim is too hard for me to get use to, and sublime is blazing fast.
    I write js and clojure alongside node python and rails.
    Yes, clojure is the best for me and I think data driven coding is better for most.

    But? I'm not arguing with you, just sharing my experience
  • 3
    @Batburger the thing is that most of the features you describe don't work as well on C++, and are just workarounds that are hard to implement.

    I could argue that there is full OOP in JS. Just because I can make it, doesn't mean that it exists.
  • 5
    @FrodoSwaggins "“Show me a Linux distribution that lets me use Microsoft word haha lol”" - way to completely miss my point.

    There is professional software, REQUIRED in the industry, that are not supported on Linux. If you had any trace of objectivity in you, you would've acknowledge that, and recognized that there are OSes good for different stuff. Unfortunately you are a stuck-up fundamentalist who will physically not be able to understand anything that is contrary to your own personally held beliefs.
  • 3
    @FrodoSwaggins "my friends who work in c# spend half their time undoing code" - I couldn't give a damn about your supposed friends whom I cannot challenge right now and can't ask for details. What you said is basically 100% bullshit. And that says I, a direct participant in this discussion, with a good idea about what I'm talking about. Not he-said she-said.

    As for VB - it exists today as either VB for Applications (automation in OpenOffice, MS Office, and even some online office with free email hosting that I forgot the name of), or as VB.NET. The first - it's automation. Great performance is not expected. Have you seen JS in Google Sheets? It's just beyond horrible. As for VB.NET, the performance is just as good as in C#.NET, which is on-par with Go, OpenJDK, and much, much faster than any scripting language, including Python with numba.jit.
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode full OOP isn’t the goal it’s the enemy. When you get to the point when we can use reflection to work on objects we know nothing about (or worse, dynamically loading dlls a la VB and literally deciding at runtime if symbols exist) you’re off the rails.

    If you find yourself working around c++ that’s a major clue that you have a serious design problem.

    “A stuck up Fundamentalist who will physically not be able to understand anything contrary to your own personally held beliefs”

    Funny you seem to be having a lot of trouble swallowing something contrary to your beliefs as well. In fact you seem quite angry about the fact that I have a different idea about what makes great software. I once said as you do, and have learned over and over again. There are os’ good for other things. Windows is not one of them, and that fact alone does not redeem it in anyway. Grow up.

    Google “LINQ performance” and prepare to be amazed. Or spend a year working on code where the previous developer uses reflection when it was clearly not needed and then come back and tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about.

    And news flash: VB.NET and C# are LITERALLY the same language. I never thought I’d be teaching someone else about c#... they’re just different compiler frontends. Visual C++.NET is also the same language. VB and VB.net are not related. And don’t worry... lord as my witness I virulently detest JavaScript. “Beyond horrible” doesn’t even begin to describe it.

    You sound like a Windows and .NET fan. That’s how you’re coming across.
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins This is way off topic, but I find that you're a huge fan of C++ and C. I have a hard time to get started with C. I really really want to end up doing embedded software engineering, but I have a hard time getting my hands dirty on this particular subject as I simply don't know where the fuck to begin. Any advice? It seems like you have way more experience than I have, so anything that can point me in the direction will be much appreciated :)
  • 4
    "Functional Programming is the future"


    Instant ++.
  • 0
    @aaxa that depends on what you want. What kind of embedded developing? I spent a lot of time implementing CLI tools and DSP in the beginning.
  • 1
    @FrodoSwaggins Hmm.. Maybe you won't be able to answer then. But you're welcome to give it a shot :D
    I want to end up in the car industry making critical embedded systems (like electronic steering and so on). But to begin with I'm imagining more simple stuff like thermostats and stuff like that.
  • 1
    @aaxa get a raspberry pi and a neopixel strip. Much fun to be had.
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins Haha, that could be a start :)
  • 1
    @aaxa if i can butt in, arduino (and my favorite, digispark) is a lot closer to this kinda stuff and they are both easily embeddable so you can make cool iot stuff
  • 1
    @BindView Cool, thanks! I actually think I have an Arduino somewhere in my huge audio project mess πŸ˜‚
  • 0

    "VB.NET and C# are LITERALLY the same language" - ....
    I gotta ask...

    Do you have even the slightest idea about what you're talking about?
  • 1
    @AndSoWeCode Do you? No.
  • 0
    @Root what? you too are too fanatically inclined to look at plain facts?

    Do I need to slap you in the face with them?

    since you obviously don't know what each one is, I'll give you the short tour:


    "C# and VB.NET are syntactically very different languages with very different histories."

    Now PLEASE, both of you, get a clue before making a complete fool out of yourselves.
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    They run on the same vm have the same calling convention, use the same binaries to the same library assemblies. Their syntaxes although visually very different are more or less isometric. They are different frontends.

    People pretend this isn’t the case but that’s just not true. I will say this, C# is the most natural frontend for .NET. VB.NET was more or less developed to ease old school VB guys.

    They are the same language.
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode slap slap.

    Next time be sure to look past the surface, lest you continue looking like a fool. 😞
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins "They run on the same vm" - so platform is the same. What does that have to do with language?

    PHP can run on that vm as well, as can many other languages.

    Does this make them "LITERALLY the same language"?

    You have driven this point to absurdity. I'm surprised you're still defending this lost cause. It's a good testament of how fanatical your convictions are. I will not continue, because there is no point. If C# and VB.NET are the same languages, literally, then you're gone further than chemtrail experts. Sad...
  • 0
    @Root congratulations! You've demonstrated that you're a fanatic with zero knowledge.

  • 3
    @AndSoWeCode they’re all meant to be different stntaxes for the same language. Isomorphic means the same. Just telling it like it is. please leave. Adults talking.
  • 3
    @AndSoWeCode You argue just like an American liberal: someone who is emotional instead of logical, who is overly aggressive and insulting, who won't look past or beneath the surface of things, and who refuses to see any information contradictory to their viewpoint. The parallels between this and psychotic behavior is striking. If you must, make a conscious effort not to act in this way.

    Onto your actual argument:
    Frodo isn't referring to a win10 VM. He's referring to e.g. the Java VM that executes Java bytecode. PHP can not run on such a VM.

    As for the "literally the same language" contention, imagine a kiosk. This same model kiosk is used at both Burger King and McDonald's, and each displays that venue's branding and menu, and related cabinet decor. You're arguing that these two are vastly different kiosks because their frontend and venue differ, while underneath they are, in fact, identical. The same is true with these two languages. How they work internally is identical.

    And before you bring up Assembly as a counter, that would be saying all languages are identical.
  • 0
    @Root don’t get me wrong I’m not perfect either.
  • 1
    @Root "You argue just like an American liberal: someone who is emotional instead of logical, " - stop it right there.

    How many arguments have you presented to your position?

    How many?

    How DARE you accuse me of that which you have done exclusively here?
  • 5
    @AndSoWeCode I'm sorry, I feel a sudden urge to barge in here... You need to chill out man. @Root might agree with Frodo, but she only tried to elaborate to make you understand where Frodo is coming from and what his points are. That she agrees doesn't need any arguments. She haven't at any point been emotional.
  • 2
    First of all... Hats offπŸ‘πŸ‘

    ... but c# is still better than c++ (just personal preference)
  • 2
    @meretan /strongly/ disagree
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins well, in build stupid little games with unity. C# works better for thatπŸ˜…
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins “Got any questions about propane” is a reference to Hank Hill on King of the Hill
  • 1
    @jeeper it’s a reference to starcraft
  • 2
    @FrodoSwaggins @jeeper I think King of the Hill was referencing StarCraft and its audience completely missed it. Different demographic.
  • 0
    @aaxa the problem is that she did not elaborate, but stuck to him and gave out smart-ass-like rhetoric.

    I don't care that people have opinions about languages and stuff - that's fine. But to say, without a single strong argument, that people are bad because of that opinion (which he basically did), is crossing a line, which is why I used the exact same rhetoric in response.
  • 0
    @Root @FrodoSwaggins I must know the true origin!
  • 0
    @AndSoWeCode hm. At least yo see it when someone else does it.
  • 0
    @jeeper play Starcraft and click on a firebat like a hundred times.
  • 2
    @FrodoSwaggins @AndSoWeCode I don't need to make the same argument someone else makes in literally the comment above mine. Similarly, if someone else can word things better, I will let them.

    @AndSoWeCode Also, accusing me of something I haven't done is nothing short of infuriating, especially when you're the only one in the thread actually guilty of it. Quit arguing with a friggin mirror. 😧
  • 1
    @Root I was being snarky. I didn’t see any problem whatsoever with anything you wrote personally.
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode with all due respect, windows 8 and windows 10 are the worst releases, so the OS didn't become any better lately. Compared to Win7 it became much worse.

    Also gaming isn't working in Linux mainly because the GPU manufacturers don't produce drivers for Linux.
  • 1
    @Noob amd is and it’s better than the windows version. Nvidia does and it’s proprietary. Intel does and it’s free

    There’s excellent drivers for literally everything in Linux.
  • 1
    @FrodoSwaggins Is there anything Windows does better than linux in your opinion?

    I think I know the answer, but I'm curious what you have to say πŸ™‚
  • 3
    @Root I actually had an infuriating Windows experience today. Almost blew my lid. Couldn’t change the IP address on a virtual net adaptor, and the device on the other end keptnserving up dhcp leases and then changing its own ip to be out of the subnet. For some reason, I couldn’t change to static ips in this one device. I could in every other device. Can’t even fucking be a driver problem, because ip is software, but I spent five hours and screamed myself hoarse.

    And a quick online search shows many others had the same problem with this device. This is a problem that should not exist.

    I could make it work in Linux, but the web socket that was open require Microsoft silverlight. It’s just for updating firmware. That’s like writing a text editor in flash. I blew my lid at that point, been trying to calm down ever since. Blood pressure off the charts.
  • 1
    @FrodoSwaggins So, Windows is a better user stress test, then? 😊
  • 1
    @FrodoSwaggins @Root King of the Hill first aired 1997-01-12 Starcraft released 1998-03-31 looks like Starcraft was referencing KOTH.
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins true, true, but for some reason nvidia drivers still seem to be working poorly on Linux. Or maybe there are just other things I don't know.
  • 1
    @gitpush lol, that's a funny irony.

    Get out of your cave?
    You mean stay in the cave and continue to watch crap TV.
  • 1
    @iSwimInTheC for them yes unfortunately :/
    Im ok watching TV if I end up learning something and not wasting my free time watching people acting (to me it is lying to get paid)
  • 1
    @FrodoSwaggins dude I've been dealing with shit like that forever. You're not alone
  • 1
    @gitpush wouldn't it be "paying to get lied to"
  • 1
    @Noob been using them for years they work fine.


    lsmod | grep nouveau


    lsmod | grep nvidia


    cat /var/log/X11.0.log | grep nvidia
  • 1
    @iSwimInTheC oh ya lol minor typo 🀣
  • 0
    @Noob OS lighter on resources, faster on startup, with many more integrated features, including Linux subsystem. Also better at high performance tasks like gaming, rendering, etc. How can it be worse?

    As for drivers on Linux not being made by manufacturers - could you please explain how the f*ck am I looking at "NVIDIA X Server Settings" right now?
    No. It's game developers who prefer using DirectX and a more standard platform that's more easy to maintain (as opposed to crazy different Linux distributions). Even multiplatform games such as Kerbal Space Program works much worse on Linux.
  • -1
    @Root "Also, accusing me of something I haven't done is nothing short of infuriating" - quit projecting. Read your own comments. Buzz off.
  • 4
  • -1
    @FrodoSwaggins you started the hate. Now you can't handle replies?
    So pathetic.
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode did that feel good? I’m happy to continue this conversation if being outraged and screaming at people is helping you with your issues.
  • -1
    @FrodoSwaggins read your #0 comment. Then read your :-1 comment.
    Ironic, isn't it?
  • 4
    @AndSoWeCode I have no idea what you’re talking about but definitely it would help your case a lot if I was the one being ironic here.

    Seriously in this entire thread less than 50% if your posts have something that isn’t just you taking shots at other users, and of the 50% of your posts that do have technical content, less than 50% of them are correct.

    I don’t know why you’re surprised that your narcissistic drone is making other people not want to talk to you. It really doesn’t have anything to do with the validity of your arguments.
  • -1
    @FrodoSwaggins your entire thread is taking shots at other users.
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode keep telling yourself that if it makes it easier
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode Are you still arguing with a mirror?

    To explain: you seem to confuse your own actions with those of others. This is not a good thing, as it does not reflect reality.
  • -1
    @Root your first response to me, after I've highlighted an obvious piece of bullshit, asking if he has any idea what he's talking about, was

    "@AndSoWeCode Do you? No."

    You just broke this site's records for the level of cluelessness.
  • 3
    @AndSoWeCode look, those statements sound like they are from the back of the Windows 10 Home Edition CD.

    Facts are:
    * Windows10 is heavy as hell. It consumes lots of ram and is never normalized - can spike to higher consumption rates for no apparent reason.
    * It's startup, even with the laptop hybernation "shutdown", is slower than Windows 7, XP and all Linux distributions that I've tried.
    * New features are the failure of us as humanity. They completely ignore the best practices of UI/UX, they are useless in their core and they do not work overall.
    * Linux subsystem is actually ok.
    * The performance for real-time 3D graphics is still much better on Windows 7. Both for gaming and especially for rendering (rip Maya on Win10).

    Then you have these extra features on Win10:
    * Built-in spyware
    * Mandatory updates
    * Incompatibility with some popular hardware
    * Tons of bugs
    * Dozens of glitches
    * Bad maintenance team that will never resolve the issues

    So yeah, Windows became worse lately.
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode do you work in Microsoft's sales department? Because that's how you sound like.

    I especially like how you make up a consensus that is the complete opposite of the real situation.

    The entire internet is, at best, laughing at Windows 10 for being as slow, as broken and as clumsy as it is. Yet you dare to try and turn it 180 degrees.

    You are as brave as Internet Explorer asking to become my default browser.
  • -1
    @Noob "do you work in Microsoft's sales department? Because that's how you sound like." - nice one. That's what I usually get for bringing facts into a discussion. When you can't reply - accuse of having a conflict interest or something.

    And now you accuse me of making up a consensus. All you have to do is search. With a neutral search ("x vs y"), here is the only non-MS article that is a comprehensive benchmark of NOT a test version (the rest actually say pretty much the same - Win10 is marginally better):
    says it's basically the same in performance but offers new APIs. It also shows Win10 being fastest on resume from sleep/hibernation (contrary to your statements).

    What entire internet? Where is that internet? Only idiot edgy teenagers compare apples to oranges and pin Windows against Linux when they basically do different things.
  • 3
    @AndSoWeCode lol yeah. Linux is making a profit off of being spyware.

    Pretty much every one of your “facts” in the last two comments is just wrong. You need to leave, before somebody else points this out and you have to say “how DARE you” again.

    At least when it’s from me you’re used to it.
  • 3
    @AndSoWeCode I don't need to point out the obvious, that's why I simply asked you why you're saying such nonsense.

    Also the fact that you are getting emotional while trying to prove a wrong fact to be right only proves the rotten basis of it.
  • 3
    “Spyware - Windows just caught up with it. Every other OS made by a pro profit company has even more of it”

    Linux is made by open source developers but also Microsoft, Apple, red hat, oracle, hp, ibm, Intel, amd/ati, and like a million other for-profit organizations. There’s about as much for-profit contribution to the kernel as there is volunteer.

    Microsoft Windows pioneered spyware as a service. They are not playing catch up.
  • 3
    @AndSoWeCode no most of what you’re saying is not backed up by evidence. Case and point your claim about Windows hardware compatibility, Linux supports way more hardware than windows does, only a few rare exceptions (usually ancient devices) have made it anything but a strict inclusion.
  • 3
    @AndSoWeCode you also cite 4gb of ram usage using gnome in Linux. Get us a ps aux output if you’re claiming that. At idle my system uses 80 megs of ram and I severely doubt that this claim is anything other than utter hokum.
  • 3
    I can’t believe you’re going with “you’ve brought no evidence” the level of irony is astounding.
  • 3
    @AndSoWeCode that’s actually true. Congratulations.

    FWIW though I was pointing out more than one wrong thing with your comment “just caught up” what an opinion presented as fact. Wow.

    So intel having contributed an enormous amount of code for drivers and processor compatibility doesn’t get to count as having made it?
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode is the fact that my views are idiotic your opinion or a fact? Are you the one conducting a civil conversation here and withholding profanities? Is the fact that win 10 is “faster” than win7 (which is very likely a conclusion based on cherry picked results) the only thing that makes one os better than another? Do you have a concrete understanding of what constitutes extreme effort? Are we really still having this conversation?

    Congratulations on finding a link that incorrectly states that VB.net and c# are the same languages. Very impressive.

    Heres proof that Elvis was alive after http://empirenews.net/shocking-dna-...
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode I tried not to dignify this but here we go.


    “In implementation, all .NET programming languages share the same runtime engine, uniform abstract syntax tree, and Common Intermediate Language”

    Now I’m a compiler and OS engineer and you clearly are not so I’m going to spell this out in a way you understand.

    The uniform abstract syntax tree being common among all these languages means that after the surface layer of ascii is interpreted for basic keywords and put into a format that the computer can understand, these languages are identical. This step happens before symbol references are marked, before it is converted into a middle language, before optimization’s, before code generation, before library linking.

    In lame persons terms, this means they’re the same fucking language.

    In even more lame terms this means you are wrong and so is your stupid link.


    Another source.


    “Every language in the .NET Framework must adhere to the rules established by the Common Language Infrastructure: a language could have its own keywords, but the main idea of the .NET Framework (the interoperability between the languages) makes them able to do the same things. The choice is up to the developer, according to his/her experience and skills and to the program's requirements”

    Short for there are some syntactical differences but they are interpreted the same way.

    Some features have been left out of various frontends because thy don’t make sense with the syntax the language presents.
  • -1
    @itsnameless I am on Debian. Why would I try xfce or lxde? I like the experience of Gnome3, I like that it doesn't take a lot of maintenance to customize it how I want. I am not short on RAM, I have 32GB and most of it is used by running computations when they run. 1GB isn't gonna make even a dent in that.

    I use lxde only on VMs where I need a GUI (for when I have to use RDP through a proprietary VPN software). For the rest, I'm completely fine with even KDE. Except that I don't like it.
  • 1
    @AndSoWeCode at first glance it looks like your memory is getting used by your web browser... get me your corresponding

    cat /proc/meminfo

    And here’s a cool command that should coalesce the information better that I found;

    ps -eo size,pid,user,command --sort -size | awk '{ hr=$1/1024 ; printf("%13.2f Mb ",hr) } { for ( x=4 ; x<=NF ; x++ ) { printf("%s ",$x) } print "" }'
  • 1
    @Root I think of myself as a teacher. Learning is painful sometimes.
  • -1
    @FrodoSwaggins "In implementation, all .NET programming languages share the same runtime engine, uniform abstract syntax tree, and Common Intermediate Language" - right. Now read again what it says.
    Same engine - sure.
    "Compiled" to the same CIL - yes.

    But where does it say that it's the same language?

    There is IronPython, which is Python, that compiles to CIL. By your "logic", Python is the same as C#?

    For you see, you are one, very untrustworthy, extremely obnoxious and arrogant person. If you want your exotic claim to bear ANY weight, you need to either prove that you're the expert that you claim to be, by, say, providing a nice language that you authored. THEN, maybe, you will have a voice, that is strong enough to counter other experienced people, who made a strong CONSENSUS, claiming that C# and VB.NET are completely different languages.

    Now don't get me wrong, I'm no fan on Wikipedia and know well how bad they are at accepting some truths. But you have no ground to sand on.
  • 1
    @AndSoWeCode they are the same language in the sense that British English and American English are the same language. It’s like pig Latin. Just a different encoding. If you want to claim that pig Latin and English are different you can but it is a meaningless statement.
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode no, you have no ground to stand on. I gave you links that are correct, and do this for a living and can confirm what they say. You are wrong, and that’s ok. I don’t think you’re stupid I just think you are tying in whether or not you’re correct into your self worth.
  • -1
    @FrodoSwaggins I am a firm believer in evidence. I have drastically changed my mind many times before, when good evidence was provided.

    But this is not the case.
    You went directly at completely obnoxious claims, insults towards the community, from the very beginning. And all you had to offer for it is "I am an expert".

    Dude. You're a nickname of FrodoSwaggins. For all I know, you could be an 8 year old who just learned how to code and went directly to call a big chunk of the community idiots just because they don't follow the same hype as you do.

    Now, your own sources, that you have just provided, places them as DISTINCT languages, which is already contradictory to your claim that they are "IDENTICAL".

    And then you went to shifting the goal posts, and saying "there are syntactical differences" - well that would mean that they are NOT IDENTICAL, captain. Wouldn't it?

    So what if they are interpreted the same way? Every language in the end is interpreted in machine code.
  • 2
    Idk why you people are still arguing with him. Arguing with a liberal is a pointless waste of time that only infuriates everyone involved. They're often simply incapable of intelligent discourse fueled by independent thought, instead relying upon feelings, and choosing to believe and enthusiastically argue for what they believe they're supposed to because of accepted "experts" or authority figures/groups (see: collectivism). Most have a victim mentality; anyone arguing with them is doing so aggressively. They also willfully ignore anything that contradicts their worldview, and see the world through a mirror: others are guilty of the liberal's own faults and mistakes, and they often take credit for others' actions. If they cannot win an argument with opinions and emotion, they resort to logical fallacies, and from there, insults and character assassination (racist, sexist, xenophobic, pedophile, etc.). The larger their number, the quicker this progression, and the further towards hysteria and violence it goes. (See: collectivism again)

    In my experience thus far, it is quite literally impossible to have a rational discussion with these individuals. I've given up trying.
  • -1
    @FrodoSwaggins so continuing this talk of evidence:
    You have made extraordinary claims. Your claims basically say that anything but C++ is garbage.

    Now please, describe a world where there was no higher level language. Imagine a world where every web app is written in C++. Where DevRant can't be written in JS. Why don't you ask the authors if they'd even consider trying if there was not a shitty language such as JS to start with.
    With no Java you basically have no apps on Android, because no sane developer would code maps entirely on NDK.
    Without C#, there would be no KeePass2 for Windows, no Paint.NET, no Stackoverflow, everybody would stick to ExpertSexChange.com for many more months or years.
    Lots of very useful proprietary software used it to, including Autocad. Also without C#, you would have to code game logic in Unity using JS, which sucks balls. I did game development in C++, without Unity to help. It's EXTREMELY difficult and time-consuming compared to using, say, Unity.
  • -1
    @Root "Arguing with a liberal" - lol.


    Why are you even here?
  • -1
    @Root I had to look at your profile.

    Ruby? JS you say?

    Do you realize that you're also among the "idiots" described by OP?

    This is just marvelous... You work with technologies that are OBJECTIVELY shittier (slower, more prone to bugs, fewer features), than the language that he called slow and shitty.


    I almost asked a very inappropriate question, but decided to leave it here.

    I am sorry for you...
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode history lesson:

    In the beginning there was win32, the way that Microsoft wanted people to develop for Windows. You could use C to do this as it was a C Api. When c++ came around you could use that too.

    Microsoft’s beginnings were in basic. They’ve developed a hoard of basic interpreters, and developed this thing called Visual Basic. So they had a vision to try to get Windows developers to use VB for Windows to write all their code. It was safer, controlled by them, and easy to read/write, very simple. They invented windows COM objects and registry to make it so you could have dlls scattered around and registered in the system and called up dynamically so you have one coherent codebase.

    Of course, that vision didn’t really pan out. VB turned out to be preposterously slow, and COM turned out to be a disaster later to be known as DLL hell and the basic concepts of COM made code very unmaintainable. But thy were stuck with it because Microsoft is a big believer in maintainability.

    So now you have some people developing for COM and some people developing for win32. Microsoft still had a vision to have a unified developer base, so that’s when they dreamed up buying java from sun. When sun reused, thy dreamed up .NET. In order to get people to adopt .NET, they had to make the library insanely rich, at the cost of good design, and they had to deal with developer bases still using c++ and VB. And so along with c# (the real .net language) they developed alternative syntaxes to try to tempt VB and c++ developers to use .net.

    So in order to do that, you have to produce a slightly altered syntax of VB that is close enough to c# that they can easily apply the same tricks in the compiler to them. Then it allows VB developers to take advantage of .NET without having to maintain three different APIs for Windows.

    That is the point of .NET. To give you lots of ways that are in all actuality the same to develop for Windows.
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode now onto your next thing: I did not say anything but c++ is terrible. I said c# and java are terrible and there are some pretty extraordinary technical reasons supporting this claim, most of them to do with how these languages have taken a very extreme approach to OOP which violates most of the principals of it.

    You’re putting words in my mouth by saying I don’t believe in high level languages, I have developed asome languages that my company is currently using that I think are excellent, they can be used to implement DSP algorithms and compile into C or Verilog. Very cool.

    You’re also wrong in suggesting that things would not have existed without certain techs. If JS didn’t exist another language that offers the same use case would. Very obvious.

    Your unity argument is terrible. That’s obviously not how things would be. That’s like saying you can go back in time and change the outcome of the American revolution and the timeline would otherwise be exactly as it is today. Just not the case.

    And I understand what @Root meant when she says you argue like a liberal. The similarity is uncanny. You state very basic facts and avoid exploring consequences in order to be able to make bold claims, but your logic really doesn’t check out.

    Case and point the unity thing. “If c# wasn’t there you’d have to write in JS” when obviously if c# wasn’t there I can almost guarantee they would have developed an API for c++ or java.
  • 3
    @AndSoWeCode another history lesson; I worked as an engineer for a game studio that developed their own engine in house from scratch out of c++. It was indeed not fun, but your chain of logic saying that game engines are hard to make => we need to use unity => we need c# is just wrong.

    Unreal uses c++.

    There are other game engines

    There are other languages.

    That studio actually ended up going under. The concept for the game engine was so cutting edge that there were all sorts of problems with float precision, basic hardware limitations, graphics architecture. Yeah. It’s hard. I just don’t see what your point is.
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode c++ was pre standard in 1985, much like c was before 1989. People didn’t start seriously writing code in c++ until way later. There was a much greater performance fear back in the old days. I don’t think I ever wrote c++ code until 1998 or 1999.

    Re: your Spotify issues, sounds like you just don’t know how to handle shared objects.

    The VB API is not win32, it was pushed to be used in the place of win32, not sure where you got that from out of what I wrote.

    So if you read my post correctly the VB thing is correct. Why would they have pushed for a replacement for win32 before that api was popularized? That’s clearly not what I said.

    Well I’ve used Linuxs dynamic linking for
    Years without issues while I suffered under COM for two years in a job I had 15 years ago, so there’s my experience probably worth about the same as yours.

    I have used the term performance several times in recent comments, but actually if you read the sentences I’ve used it in, I have never actually said anywhere in this thread that “I hate language x because it’s slower than c++”

    The reason I hate VB, .net, and java is because of how they are designed. Yes they are slower, but so is using an operating system vs writing ring interrupt free code. The language, the ABI, the frameworks, the specification, the conventions, etc. That’s really where it begins and ends for me. And also, compiled code from gcc is usually faster than the average programmer can write in assembler. Yeah, the compilers are that good. I could go into why but I don’t believe you’ll understand it and it’s like half a book worth of text.

    It really seems like you’re doing the best you can to misunderstand me so I think I’m done with you for the day. Sad.
  • 2
    @AndSoWeCode again, I bashed c# solely on design. And I do so on a regular basis. Don’t know where you’re getting that from.
  • 3
    @AndSoWeCode “you clearly have some serious psychological issues”

    Lol. Must suck to get your arguments smacked down by someone with psychological issues. It’s going to be a great year for you, thanks for the wishes!
  • 1
    @itsnameless frankly I’m not the right person to ask. I’m pretty biased against most web frontend techs, and really the current state of both android/iOS developments. Until something with some serious advantages comes around, I still recommend c++. I personally like qt and gtk development for GUI.

    Rust might be a viable alternative.
  • 1
    @FrodoSwaggins @AndSoWeCode Well this was an entertaining conversation to read lol. The most hilarious part of the discussion was probably you two arguing for fuck knows how long over a definition. What makes up a language? I'd stand with @AndSoWeCode here and say that syntax is, indeed, part of what defines a language, else half of european languages would be "the same language" (as a lot of them have the same ancestry => the same underlying structure). Thus, VB.NET and C# are not "the same language", despite the fact that they work almost identically.

    However, @FrodoSwaggins obviously did not mean "identical" in that sense, he meant what he later argued for - that the underlying mechanics of the languages are identical. Thus, half of this conversation was pointless fighting over semantics πŸ™„
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins Also, you do bash C# mostly for its performance. If not in this thread, then in our previous conversation. But we've already talked about that.
  • 0
    @Root Finally, your comments about arguing with liberals are kind of out of place. Yes, liberals are annoying, but I wouldn't say @AndSoWeCode displayed particularly many signs of being and arguing like a liberal, his comments were mostly, at the very least, at the same level as Frodo's. Just sayin' πŸ™„
  • 0
    @Kodnot I do think c#s performance is bad but it’s definitely not why I hate working with it. I would still say I mostly bash it for its design but I understand why people would think I’m bashing it for its performance.

    Well we were all dragged down in rhetoric sorry to say, this guy blew his lid and took it out on us, and I’ve always been one to respond with more of the same. (This was happening in two threads at once for context)
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins If I understood correctly, you bashed C#'s design because it encourages practices that lead to bad performance, therefore the motivation still boils down to performance.

    And come on, admit it, this whole post of yours was purposefully inflamatory. Nothing wrong with that, but I'd say you cannot claim that you were the one to respond "with more of the same" πŸ™„
  • 0
    @Kodnot i wont deny that I’m out trolling for butthurt .net devs... that’s just how I get down.

    Still don’t think you quite have it with performance though, I hate it from a language design engineering perspective. The more c# is made like a scripting language the more people seem to like it and I’m just allergic to that mentality.

    More static = more betterer
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins Care to elaborate why more static = more better, besides better performance :?
  • 1
    @Kodnot has to do with management of assumptions from a programmers point of view. When the code is guaranteed by the language to be called with a certain type it eliminates whole classes of mistakes, generates cleaner and more concise code that is safe to interpret one type, requires no metadata hidden from the user (read programmer) and eliminates all kinds of error handling (which people usually don’t have enough of anyway) when used improperly.

    First and foremost though, it breaks the purpose of OOP. Generally speaking, if an object inherits from a type, it should be the authority on how it distinguished itself, not the onlooker. That’s the point of OOP. But over time people have come up with all sorts of clever design patterns that ignore this, and rather than change their thinking to fit more inside the paradigm of OOP they’ve opted to put hacks into the language to bend it more to their will.

    It’s like mixing c#s imperative with LINQ. Somebody just said one day “c# should be more like sql because it has its advantages”

    Everything in life has advantages but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t use discretion when designing a language. Just throwing everything you can get your hands on in leads to chaos.

    Generally any time you are trying to use something that is not well defined by definition I look at that as pretty bad practice. Especially when there’s so many great ways to go about ensuring that everything is well defined. I feel the devs in our company have written some stupendously comprehensive functionality without ever having to rely on goofy things like this, and the code is very readable and maintainable, and makes specific assumptions that can be managed.

    I’m sure i could probably expand on all of these things, but that’s the long and short of it.
  • 1
    @Kodnot as far as performance, I still only mean that partially.

    frim a compiler engineers perspective, giving the programmer one more degree of freedom takes away ten degrees of freedom from the compiler engineer, and means that more and more often you are dealing with things that the runtime needs to understand more about actively in order to deal with effectively. Definitely leads to worse performance, but also leads to a less general model of programming.

    Stupid example, but I once worked in a language called MUMPS many moons ago, and functions could look up variables by name at runtime that were defined in a previous stack frame without being passed to this function. So depending on who called you that variable may or may not even exist. Nuts right? This is real though I assure you. The consequence of this? No uniform way to access variables in any given stack frame. The “elegant” way to do this is always look up variables out of a table by string. Well that’s obviously the worst possible implementation, so We did our best to write compilers that had multiple ways to access variables so that you could do a fast access via a static stack offset when they were declared, but then the language spec goes to shit and the compiler generates awful code, and the word elegance loses all meaning. All to support a feature that actually was making the programmers life harder at the end of the day.

    and that’s exactly the issue. C# devs, having only done things their way don’t usually realize how much more complex bloated and fragile these “shortcuts and tricks” are actually making their designs. They hurt the programmer and thy hurt the language specification.

    Whenever I argue against c# usage, this is primarily where I’m coming from but I can see why people would think it’s about performance. In a lot of ways it is.
  • 3
    @Kodnot Perhaps a little towards the end, but they're spot-on with the beginning.
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins Isn't the C++ that you love so much as guilty of "throwing in everything you can get your hands on" as C# is? As far as I can remember, C++11/14 and C#6/7 changelogs had A Lot in common. Both included new features ripped off from functional languages. Examples: Tuples and automatic tuple unpacking, better lambdas (full-auto lambdas in C++) etc. And C++17 has even more completely new features thrown in.

    Besides, C++ is a multi-paradigm language. Shouldn't you dislike it for that? And you said +1 degrees of freedom for the user is -10 degrees of freedom for the compiler writer. Isn't C++ notorious for letting you shoot yourself in the foot as much as you desire (aka giving you all the freedom possible)?

    P.s. sorry if you've already adressed any of these claims in your comment, tbh I didn't quite understand around half of what you said. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by static?
  • 2
    @Kodnot C++ is guilty of some of this. Google now is pretty much driving the bus as far as c++ standards go, so pretty much if they want it they get it. They actually gave me an offer to work with their team that decides what c++ gets and what it doesn’t, and I said no. There are other companies/individuals/organizations that have say still, but nobody has the balls to say no any more. So yeah, you’re right.

    It’s still nowhere near the level of java and c# though, and the standard libraries are excellent.

    There are still many things that c++ mercifully doesn’t let you do though, reflection being a prime example.

    You can always implement things poorly in any language.
  • 3
    @Kodnot so static means a lot of things.

    In most languages that implement a stack (pretty much every imperative language) variables have constant offset from the stack read head, functions have constant symbols (because the application is always loaded to the same virtual location). Basically in as many ways as possible, the binary is stateless (obviously the programmed logic is not, just the binary code existing in memory).

    When you get into shared objects, this already changes. Because they can be loaded into different virtual locations, meaning they need a base address and an offset for functions. This is called position independent code. A little more dynamic.

    Now if you look up a function through reflection in c# and call it, it’s sort of already one level of indirection, because there’s support code to launch a new stack frame with a programmatically determined location for the program counter. One level of indirection. And it goes from there. Control flow based on the types of objects, when one could have designed the code to assume those things.

    With casting, in c++ an object can always be interpreted by its superclass because the pointer location is the same (the child class is offset by the size of the super class and those offsets can still be constant in the code.) but going the other way you now have to ask yourself the question of what type this object really is. And you have problems.c# is famous for its library abusing this intensely, and there’s enough metadata in the object to just ask reflection what it is. C++ has a sort of class Id value that can be used to identify it. It’s really the same abuse. I avoid it in either case. Why check something when you can design it to not need to be checked?

    Basically static code is about how the compiler can boil down your source into a very fixed thing that is very inflexible, but yet accomplished a very flexible task.
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins And what new scripting language-like features in C# make the code "less static"?
  • 1
    @Kodnot reflection for one. It’s basically the definition of non-static. Although I definitely don’t like casting things to “object” or handling control flow based on type of an object (GetType) or the like.
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins But neither of these are new, nor are these scripting language-like, right?
  • 2
    @Kodnot no I just meant that as a figure of speech, scripting languages have very loose rules. Static languages have strict rules, so it seems people favor major loosening of the rules even though it usually has negative consequences for their code design.
  • 1
    @FrodoSwaggins Oh, got it. Thank you for the explanation^^
  • 0
    @Batburger you can also do all those things in binary. The point of programming languages is to provide convenience.
  • 1
    "Some people chose Windows, and some chose Heroin"
    Oh, crap, I didn't know my choices were limited THAT much!
    (I'm still taking heroin over Windows)
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