38
2Large
260d

ladies on devrant: can you explain how you are feeling oppressed coz of gender in the tech industry?

Because i seem to find more examples of using gender as an opportunity card than anything else.

Every tech industry in the 21st century , that i know of, has been gender neutral since their formation. this gender question is not even asked in any interview. All they want is your skills and never cared weather you are a male, female or a bot. Yet i see more and more women only groups, #womenEmpowerment posts, women only organisations, women only jobs , women only scholarship programs , etc going on , and i need to know why.

I have female friends who are actually dumber than other people but gaining big advantage due to this gender bias.

Its okay and even worth it to have so many support going on if you are finding an oppression, but if women are getting employed and other gaining more opportunities solely because of being women, then you are nothing but a strong cult oppressing other worthy people

Comments
  • 32
    Shots fired, *grabs a chair and 🍿 *
  • 24
    This is the other side of sexism that no one seems to talk about.
  • 3
  • 10
    🍿
  • 31
    - Post is addressed to women ("Ladies on devrant: can you...")
    - So far only 5 replies
    - All the 5 replies are from men

    So far so good! :D
  • 21
    @netikras and you know this kind of thing goes into twitter news as oppression: "a devrant post requesting healthy debate got crowded by male watchers , women could not talk" xD
  • 8
    In no particular order, and by no ways to "force your opinion", you know... coz some twitter crazy folk is going to come after me with a pitch fork for this, but for the women of devRant I can think off, of the top of my head right now. Do you have any thoughts or opinions on the matter at hand?

    @Root
    @jennytengsonm
    @scor
    @voxera
    @devtea
    @bluenutterfly
    @alice

    Oh, and if you're not actually a women, or gender inclined as such, just ignore me 🙃

    Some how it's hard to ask for a women's opinion in 2019x and not sound like a dick.
  • 6
    I remember one line: Men jobless, women most affected.
    Anyway, I saw, talked, worked with capable women. I can't say any wrong word about them. But shitfest on Twitter or other place about women not enough represented and so on, driving me nuts.
  • 12
    @jennytengsonM People like you and your wwc's director are the reason I haven't completely given up on modern society (yet).
  • 2
    @jennytengsonM I too find your director's philosophy very valid but this still doesn't feel like a convincing point. what she is saying is that "All girls/women/lgbtq/whoever feels racism-sexism against themselves is a scared person too afraid to come in tech as they find tech as just another place where they will be discriminated. so we are encouraging them by giving them huge opportunities for free which others would have worked hard to get"
    (Ok, here comes a funny discrimination point. i just assumed since males are not participating, it would be easy for you guys. apologies but look at it from the other way, the majority participants are out. would it be sexist of me or logical of me to presume it would be easy?)

    So do you also think tech is same as every other industry? where you would feel oppressed and are scared to come forward. if a company says"we have 0 tolerance policy against racism/sexism" is it not enough and you still need reserved $5500 scholarships?
  • 9
    @C0D4 *stares* I'll allow it...

    @netikras I identify as a Linux process.
  • 7
    I don't feel oppressed at all.
    I won't work for a company that recruits women just because.
  • 2
  • 3
    @351483773 Doesn't sound like him, besides, his age seems different too.
  • 3
  • 2
    @jennytengsonM I am not saying that i know that director nor my comment was made directly towards women who code organisation. I am just saying that's how i interpret that comment from her and other people who would give the same explanation for their scholarships.

    checkout this para from outreachy website:
    "We expressly invite women (both cis and trans), trans men, and genderqueer people to apply. We also expressly invite applications from residents and nationals of the United States of any gender who are Black/African American, Hispanic/Latin@, Native American/American Indian, Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific Islander. Anyone who faces under-representation, systemic bias, or discrimination in the technology industry of their country is invited to apply."
  • 2
    this either means "hey we have opened a scholarship. and we would like to invite all of you to participate. yes even you girls, hispanics, african american,....<all the under represented people> . if you don't fall into any of those categories then you can also apply, but we will be heavily biased"

    or simply
    "we have opened this scholarship. only people mentioned below can apply"
  • 2
    @jennytengsonM I am just obsessing over it because i never considered tech industry to be a place where gender bias or race bias to be present even in the first place. we are worth our code and code quality, then why look outside the screen and into people's color,cast or gender?
  • 2
    i think i missed some part of your previous comment or you updated it just now. Yes , as i said , i too feel that gender discrimination is horrible, yes i am a man nd feeling discriminated against in many twitter snowflakes and good opportunities and while i know there are many companies that isn't interested in this gender clauses, i don't want to end this discussion simply on " you don't like it, then don't go for it" .
  • 6
    @SparkyTD

    > This is the other side of sexism that

    > no one seems to talk about.

    That's because:

    If you are male, in an ever increasing number of countries, if you do talk about it, it will be labelled a hate crime, and you will go to prison for the rest of your life !

    I'm reminded when I went to college and was told there was grants for the poor.

    Being how I was poorer than everyone else, I thought getting one of those would be easy !

    But I was told by staff, it was pointless even applying as males never got any grants..

    That was one of my early introductions to all this malarkey.

    Reminds me of:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
  • 1
    @351483773 i am not alex de large
  • 3
    @Nanos can't completely agree. i am currently talking about male rights and(i hope) no one is labelling me as a female hater.

    And what you experienced in the college was an actual example of sexism which is rarely found in tech industry but very commonly found in other areas.

    Their mentality is "hehe female student , let's support her , free marketting and promotion"

    Actually now that i think of , i am feeling that this and the one the jenny's director said , these are the actual two mentalities that must exist in today's companies.

    For your case its just the stupid mentality of that staff. i found jenny's one interesting though still unconvincing
  • 2
    I think i look to these organisations (outreachy, grace hoppers) as something specially made for oppressed or underrepresented, like a police or something.

    We really want organisations like that , if today you don't find racism, then someday it will creep in.

    We also really don't want to worry about those grants. If you are worthy , some other organisation would give you. Try gsoc.

    Its only bad if these organisations are bad judges of whom to give the scholarship, and even in that case , why bother? Someone won a lottery, you didn't . Don't be a cry baby about it
  • 3
    I actually have to disagree. I don't know in which part of the world you work in, but sexism is still a large part of the tech industry. But in the middle east it's vastly different, women still do not get the same chances or opportunities as men do. If you're a woman you're generally believed to be inferior to men. Not that I subscribe to such ideologies.
  • 7
    No, I don't feel oppressed, I feel lonely.
    Have you ever been in a class/events where 90% of the people there are of opposite gender?
    There are only 2 other people with the same gender as you.
    Yes I can be friends with the guys, but I will be more comfortable hanging out with the women.

    Even with all those women-only support whatever, the rate of women joining tech is still low.

    You should try sex reassignment surgery, dress and behave like a woman for a year, then we'll see if you still have that opinion.
    😒
  • 3
    @jennytengsonM 10/10 points on the pro scale! :-)
  • 3
    @cho-uc you totally bullshitted your half good comment with your last line.

    Its not men's fault women do not join tech . that does not means their is bias in tech industry. My school years were totally like the classes having 1:6 female majority till 10th . and when we had to decide our choice of subjects, 90% of girls chose medical. We had 3 girls in a computer science class.

    Did we bullied them? no. were they treated as superior class gems of our class? yes ? did they felt lonely? maybe . was it our fault? fucking no. Did they felt underRepesented ? hell no. if a girl didn't did any homework, the male teachers use to even think twice before giving them the same punishments as men( nd most of the times, they didnt got 1)
  • 2
    @TitanLannister I think you have a good point . Well that's a good and different point of view: looking towards them as NGOs.

    Just a joke, but i wish we had some men's only organisations too , where "the bros"/"the dudes"/"The guys" would hang out and be supported .

    Bet that even their taglines would be considered racist or sexist xD
  • 4
    I will wait for 24 more hours before calling off from this debate and considering @jennytengsonM 's points as the general thoughts of all women. So far , here's what i have got:

    - Most of the women DO NOT feel oppressed in the tech industry but believe that female oppression exists

    - Most of the women believe that they are in the tech industry due to their own hard work and efforts , like men are.

    - Organisations( and people) which support oppressed people by providing "oppressed people only" scholarships/grants/jobs are doing so because they just like supporting them even when they don't need it (yes, i am still unconvinced for any other reason) or doing for some benefit (eye candies/publicity/promotion/etc)

    - Most people believe that its okay for such organisations to continue doing so, not because their motives are right, but just because they prevent oppression from becoming mainstream
    .
    - Their are instances available when these oppressed people misused this power
  • 5
    Oh boy. That's definitely an interesting discussion. I will follow it.
  • 7
    I want to respond, but I just woke up and that's too much reading for this early.
  • 3
    @Root devrant is definitely not the platform for a megathread like this
  • 3
    talking in general terms, not about anyone specific, but you said it yourself: all these industries care about(or at least used to care about) is skills. and to people who were brought up being advantaged and taken into special consideration purely due to their gender (because that's how social dynamics in dimorphic species naturally works - the gender that carries children is taken into special consideration), suddenly getting into environment where they are treated based only on their skill, very much feels like oppression and discrimination, because it's percieved by them as a downgrade compared to what they were taught and got used to being the normal.
  • 2
    so then them organizing all these women only groups and scholarships and advantages, they percieve as "equalizing the space" and "getting rid of oppression", since they add the gynocentric advantages (that they are used to percieve as the norm, the standard) into spaces that were equal, which is why they didn't have them.

    it's all about the relativity of human perception. men get off-balance by getting a compliment, because it's something significantly "above average" within the context of treatment they're used to consider being normal. if women started getting compliments and kindness with the same (in)frequency as men do, they would very quickly get clinically depressed, since within what they percieve as the normal, it would be as if world suddenly dropped into cold uncaring cruelty.

    same principle.
  • 3
    @2Large @Nanos @SparkyTD @TitanLannister

    you made me remember this, btw

    http://academicrightswatch.com//...

    @Mosesrocks

    in middle east it's not about sexism being part of "the industry" (or any industry), rather about sexism being part of the culture. so please don't try to pretend it's the fault of the industry.
  • 2
    This discussion makes me think of functional programming:

    monads vs lessnads
  • 0
    @Midnigh-shcode
    >> because that's how social dynamics in dimorphic species naturally works - the gender that carries children is taken into special consideration

    I am apologizing to anyone who gets offended in advance, but are you saying that:

    1. women in tech wants a special status just because they are children carrying gender, and we always did so in other industries?
    My opinion: well, i half agree to that . i fully support maternal leaves and a company's support to a girl employee during menstruation cycle an other female stuff. but other than that, aren't they just equal?
  • 0
    2.
    >> suddenly getting into environment where they are treated based only on their skill, very much feels like oppression and discrimination
    >> all these women only groups, they perceive as "equalizing the space" and "getting rid of oppression", since they add the gynocentric advantages
    >> as if world suddenly dropped into cold uncaring cruelty

    2. just because they are now being judged based on their skills and not getting any points for gender, they feel oppressed and this is all just an illusion?
    ...
  • 0
    ...My 2$: well i can't say anything anymore. what you are essentially saying is that "tech as an industry is open to everyone irrespective of cast/color/gender. But since women as a gender is biologically more complex(able to produce child, less muscular, mensturation, etc), their complexity should be considered as a compensation factor, &not getting one will make them feel oppressed.
    if this is what you wan to say, then i think i got my ans & i find it very logical for these organisations to support and demand for women rights. But they should not claim it as "Women Equality rights", but rather "Women Speciality Rights", because equalism would consider everyone as equal, regardless of biological limitations
  • 1
    ...But here's something : while trying to find a gender neutral word, i came across this article in which google fires an employee for saying similar thoughts in a memo : https://nytimes.com/2017/08/...

    Sadly this ideology to justify their special status is also not tolerated
  • 1
    I want to remind everyone that i am neither a female hater nor a sexist . i am just a curious person trying to learn about a situation/ a believe/ social laws/ (i don't even know what will you call it), just like i would try to learn about anything else

    My motives here are not to hurt anyone's sentiments or promote any hate, just have a small discussion and gather opinions
  • 1
    @jennytengsonM I am not alex de large, why do you want to know me so much :P . And as i said i am just here curious to know why those gender/race bias opportunities exist in an industry i thought to be completely skill driven.
    don't worry i am near to my answers and going to end this debacle today. And what i know of devrant's algo, it will be dead soon
  • 1
    @SparkyTD Because those whot mention it get branded as sexist trolls and nothing gets solved.

    SNAFU
  • 3
    I'd like to quickly add my two cents. I do get a bit bothered by the fact that it's harder to get places as a white male. Especially in school when I couldn't find any scholarships having to do with my background. Everything had to be 100% merit based.

    But I also want to point out. My team is all white men... I don't think that discrimination played a part. But it's a problem. We dont have unique perspectives that we would get from other backgrounds. We are building this application for white men I guess.

    I don't think the current issue is with the system itself. And the hard rules set by companies and lawmakers. I think our issues now are with society and our industries past. There are a lot less women getting into CS and that's a problem. Not with the rules themselves but instead on the ideals we pass to our daughter and what type of work they are 'allowed' to do.
    I've also read some rants on here from women who were told they couldn't be part of meetings cause they were women.
  • 4
    Devrant should add a controversial tab for discussions like this...
  • 1
    @2Large

    "1. women in tech wants a special status just because they are children carrying gender, and we always did so in other industries?"

    no. women in general EXPECT special treatment, because they are by default GIVEN special treatment, so that's their baseline, that's what they consider to be the standard.

    so then when, in some area, they don't get the special treatment which they think is the standard normal treatment, it feels to them, and they think, that it's sexism or discrimination.

    I would like to point out that none of this is conscious, it's all just instincts and subconscious stuff.

    https://washingtonpost.com/news/...

    especially the "It now feels as though I'm on my own" section is relevant for our current discussion.
  • 1
    @2Large

    "2. just because they are now being judged based on their skills and not getting any points for gender, they feel oppressed and this is all just an illusion?"

    ...basically.

    of course, not always in all cases, there's also legitimate sexism out there (directed at both sides), but it seems the most significant culprit is this effect. again, i recommend reading the article that I linked, and also this woman is an interesting case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    The wiki is pretty sparse, but from what I know, a (former) feminist who decided to live disguised as a man for a year to explore "male privilege and toxic masculinity".

    After the experiment, she needed to be treated for mental health issues, mainly deppression, and from what I know, it wasn't because of the "toxic masculinity".
  • 1
    @2Large basically all the info I've ever come across relating to this, if it wasn't stained and manipulated by feminist cult, points pretty clearly to the same thing - the thing I've just described to you.
  • 1
    @andpeterson

    "Devrant should add a controversial tab for discussions like this..."

    i very strongly disagree. the whole site is overrun by all kinds of strong emotions, and nobody has an issue with that, so why should there be an issue, or, you might say, *special consideration* for topics regarding women? i mean, any other reason besides homo sapiens being naturally a gynocentric species.

    ( @2Large wink wink, nudge nudge )
  • 7
    "I have female friends who are actually dumber than other people but gaining big advantage due to this gender bias"

    Because women can't be mediocre without being called dumb or singled out. I also have seen many dumb as fuck men who got where they are because of the "bro culture". How is that fair?

    I was asked in an interview if I have any issue working with a team full of guys. Or if I was "easily offended". Mind you, I don't see myself as "feminine" or "womanly" but my cup F tits are apparently a big obstacle for recruitment. I have also tested this theory: if I put ANY makeup on for interview, I'll get turned down for the job right after. Idk how that's not sexist in your view.

    And I don't know about real oppression, (because my male colleagues have always backed me up) but equality is when a mediocre woman dev is not singled out, not when women are technically "allowed" to do things.

    It's just like the oppression for male nurses or male pre-school teachers.
  • 5
    But here's the thing : like any other normal person, I go where the money is. If they're giving me free scholarship, even if it is because it says so on my birth certificate that I've got a vajayjay, I'm taking the fucking scholarship. Anyone who's jealous, can go fucking complain but as long as they're giving me free money, I'm taking it. (even if it means I'll study computers instead of liberal arts)
  • 1
    > "oppressed people only"

    > scholarships/grants/jobs

    I'm reminded of a place once where the IT department had 99.9% of one type of person, and 0.01% of the other type of people.

    Someone decided they should have 90% and 10% as a target in 2 years time.

    The only way to meet that target would be that every new hiring from now till 2 years, was someone from that 10%..

    Yet building 2, where folk earned twice as much as folk in IT, had things the other way around, 0.01% of one type of person, and 99.9% of the other type.

    Yet no one made noises there about how they should address the balance !

    The problem is when every place is like that, and if you suddenly find yourself in the wrong group, getting hired will suddenly be, oddly difficult to impossible !

    I'm reminded of someone I knew who was in the right group and got a job simply because they was the right religion, that was the only question they asked in the interview !
  • 1
    > i am just a curious person

    Me 2 !

    But my experience of asking any sort of question about anything, no matter how amazingly fantastically you aren't X, people will start calling you X simply because you mention the subject.

    This is why 98% of people in groups never say anything !
  • 0
    I'm reminded of:

    https://youtube.com/watch/...

    > Hjernevask (Brainwash) 1/7 - The Gender

    > Equality Paradox – (Eng. sub - HQ)
  • 0
    I diverse design team is both a good thing and a bad thing.

    It can be a good thing because issues can be spotted by one person that no one else spots, and solutions offered in the same way.

    It can be a bad thing if someone bullies the team into making a product with a bad political aim.

    An example of that would be say left and right handed products.

    Many products are right-handed only.

    It would be sensible to make a product also available in left-handed design.

    It would be politically motivated to change a product from right-handed to left-handed only..
  • 4
    Sexism is prevelant in the industry. We'd like to believe everything is based on meritocracy but that is not the ground reality. Sexism, favoritism and racism is there. Just because it's happening behind closed doors doesn't mean it ain't happening.

    You might want to read the investigative report about the bro culture of Riot Games.
  • 1
    I think that this might play a role in certain situations, yet I haven't come across one yet.

    At my previous job (hosting company, mostly linux engineers), we were accused of only hiring men once. This accusation was wiped off the table when my boss said this (true): oh I'd definitely hire a woman/female. But then we'd first need to get female candidates for Linux engineering positions, which we haven't had yet, at all.

    So, I think there would be woman who'd do this to have an advantage, but then, there are probably guys who do this in other contexts and the percentage is probably near fucking zero.

    Just fucking hire someone based on their skills, simple as that.

    And don't accuse people of something when you don't have a base/the evidence for it (like with this post, correct me if I'm wrong)
  • 2
    Yo, sorry I’m late, but I have some insight on this.

    Your post is reasonable, and I used to feel exactly like you do. Until I actually became a female developer and the reality hit me square in the face when I was least expecting it.

    You’re right that in tech interviews, nobody asks about your gender. That would be overt and weird. And typically, the vast majority of people you run into have no overt gender bias that makes you wanna run the other way.

    What does happen though, is you meet one manager or one coworker, usually the first one to tell you “I don’t see gender” out of nowhere. Sounds reassuring, right? I thought so too.

    My first manager asked me a weird question in my interview: “Can you handle... obscenities? Because my guys are pretty rough around the edges.” I was actually relieved at this question bc I enjoy that kind of humor and I told him so. He looked strangely concerned but I stayed professional, figured I misread him and brushed it off.

    Over the next few weeks, when the guys would make a dirty joke and I’d join in at the same level of enthusiasm, the boss would make a loud sighing noise from his office. At one point, the boss came up to my desk and told me it’s not very ladylike of me to participate in these jokes.
  • 3
    After that, we had an emergency meeting about security and he assigned everyone a response task. I asked what my task was and he told me to “research some solutions, I guess?” I had years of experience in managing macOS security so I came back same day with a presentation and a firm recommendation for one particular service. He called my colleague in and told him my presentation was “surprisingly okay,” but he was handing the project over to him. My colleague said he didn’t really have any experience in this and he told him “just take it from here, don’t let Ashley call the vendor herself.” I was left out of the meeting to present the solution to the execs, but I figured maybe it was because I was new.

    A few weeks later, he assigned us each a task meant to teach us some server infrastructure. I had some background in this so I offered help to the guys who struggled, but when it came time for my turn, the manager announced “I don’t expect Ashley to be able to do this, so I’m not timing you.”

    Every time something like this happened I tried to excuse it. Maybe my personality just didn’t fit with his, whatever. But stuff like this was happening constantly. My boyfriend was actually telling me “your boss is sexist,” and I would fight him on it. “Not everything is sexism dude.”

    Soon I was accepted into an acceleration program that took me from IT to native development with a decent pay bump. My manager called me into his office and he was openly furious. He told me “we had these programs when I worked at Microsoft, but they were usually reserved for people who EXCEL at their job.” I was like wow this dude just does not like me, glad I’m getting out of here. His assistant pulled me into the server room and said “He’s really mad and I have to be honest... he’s jealous. You did nothing wrong. Just go home and don’t let him see you. You can have the rest of the week off.”
  • 4
    My replacement came in and I was asked to train her. Yeah, her. So how can this guy be sexist, see? She had years of cross-platform experience and she was a little more polite than me so the personality seemed like a match for the boss as well. Training was a little rocky because the boss was still mad at me, but she seemed to be doing great and I had no doubt she’d handle the job well.

    I went to my next role and while I was in a lecture, she started texting me about the boss. He was doing the exact same things to her. The mentions of “that’s not very ladylike” were returning. Still not convinced, I pulled out a notebook and started writing down every time he had singled me out and disenfranchised me specifically, not expecting to go beyond 3 or 4 bulletpoints.

    I am ashamed to say I filled 5 notebook pages front and back, and it took me less than 30 minutes. It all just flooded out and I felt like an asshole for allowing this to happen to someone else instead of doing something about it. So I did something about it, they interviewed his other employees to confirm and he was gone in a week. But not before firing my replacement for being in the hospital with a broken rib instead of the office, for “lack of dedication.”

    Was it sexism? I still can’t know this for sure, there’s no way for me to know. I’m not going to run around yelling “SEE? THAT’S PROOF!” But I can tell you that after this happened, a few of his non-IT female employees reached out and told me they had been treated differently from their male colleagues as well and they were glad I said something.

    End of part 1. Get ready for part 2, which features my first same-level colleague teaching me a new lesson on the same topic.
  • 3
    I’m gonna call this guy Jason. My first job out of the program was a native iOS Objective-C role. My boss, let’s call him Greg, really liked my enthusiasm for low level code and was happy to hire me after just two trial months.

    Jason was a mid-level dev who sat next to me. His eagerness to teach me the tenants of obj c was really cool at first. I learned a lot from him and appreciated his impromptu lessons. “Let’s meet at lunch and I’ll teach you exactly when to use a pointer versus a memory address,” stuff like that.

    You know that point when you’re new to a codebase where you start to really get the hang of things and feel pretty confident you can figure most tasks out? I hit that point and I was closing tickets left and right. I even got a shoutout from the PM for my velocity which felt really nice. But then something happened.

    Jason started refusing to approve my PRs until I completed the random homework exercises he assigned me. We only had 3 devs on our team so I needed his cooperation. I told him I appreciated his help but I’m gonna try to focus on my actual job for a while and he needs to either comment or approve so I can close my tickets. He refused.

    In my one on one with my manager, I brought up my stale PRs and told him the bogus deal Jason tried to make. He told me, “that’s just Jason. You can just ignore him.” I told him I tried but I needed those PRs to move. Maybe he could talk to Jason. He told me he’d rather not, since he was so hard to talk to.
  • 4
    So I tried talking to him. He told me he’s just looking out for my best interests and I should just do the extra homework to become the best dev I can possibly be. I told him his homework isn’t my job and my velocity is suffering because of his made up rules. He told me that maybe Greg was my boss on paper, but he was the one who really decided my salary, hiring status, etc. and that Greg just does whatever he says. He said that even the decision to hire me was really his decision since our boss was remote. (I actually checked on this and he had absolutely no connection to that meeting or decision, but sometimes people brag. Whatever.) I was destined to get this sorted out but I really needed my manager’s cooperation.

    I had no choice but to do the homework to get my tickets closed. I hated giving in but my manager was starting to get pissed off that I kept bringing this up. When Jason saw he’d won this one, he started adding new rules. “Be in your chair for 8 hours a day.” Greg told me I was free to work from wherever, whenever, including home whenever I wanted. But Jason told me the other people in the office were starting to dislike me because I didn’t sit at my desk enough, and for team dynamic reasons I should just do what he says. This sounded reasonable so I did it. I also didn’t see any other choice.

    Finally, a female colleague took notice of my changed behavior. She noticed I was suddenly quiet and complacent and wanted to get coffee to ask me why. Once we were out of earshot, she said “this is Jason, isn’t it? He does this to every girl to see if he can have power. Please don’t listen to him, it just makes it worse.” I told her about all the ways I tried to solve it and she got up and called our boss. He called me and yelled at me for doing what Jason told me to do. He had never told me to do that, and I should have emphasized with him how serious Jason’s claims had gotten. I had brought this on myself.
  • 3
    @BrokeTheInteger Wow, this is fucked up shit. They allow that manipulative fuck Jason to do this shit to new employees? And your manager doesn't support you? There are 2 fucks at that place, Jason and the enabling manager. Is this a current place of employment? I would find another job if possible.
  • 3
    I was mad, dawg. I had brought it up so many times my boss had asked me to drop it. But it’s my fault because I didn’t make it sound serious enough?

    My meetings with my manager started including incensed phrases like “How about you do your job and MANAGE?” He would say things like “well I’m trying but you know how hard it is to get Jason to cooperate!” He just didn’t want to get involved in this.

    An executive I spent some time with started noticing this and asked if I had gone to HR yet. Ruin this guy’s life because my manager sucks? That seems a little over the top. I asked her to please leave HR out of this and I’d handle it.

    Jason really wanted my friendship. So I wrote him a letter explaining that we can’t be friends if he continues to try to take a parental role in my life. He needed to learn to treat me as an equal and not a child who needs his guidance. Until then, we are colleagues at best and that’s it. I thought it would help him understand what was wrong with his behavior, but he still didn’t fully get it. Still, he took a few weeks off after I sent it, maybe to think about stuff.

    While he was gone, coworkers started asking me at lunch what the deal was with us. I gave a few examples of his threats and what I’d tried, and they were astounded that our boss had let this go on. In retrospect, I regret sharing this info, but I genuinely felt like I had no resources available to help and I felt like I was drowning. I was willing to give anyone who asked a brief once-over in case they were the one who had the one solution that might work.
  • 4
    The executive eventually brought this to HR because I did not, and I got in equal trouble for sharing the story with others. The HR rep said I had harmed his reputation at the company and the damage couldn’t be undone. Jason was moved to a different team, one that had been asking to poach him for two years, so I think he ended up in a pretty good place and honestly I’m happy for him. He got a title bump and his friends are now his coworkers. What he did was shitty, but I could also see clearly that he didn’t think so, and he thought he was helping. It’s just unfortunate that there are some dudes out there who think of women as taller children who need their help and guidance whether they know it or not.

    After this, my relationship with Greg was terrible. I knew he was mad so I made a point to be very chill and kind to him in our meetings. He had promised to promote me up from junior, but after this happened it “slipped his mind.” Our one on ones became me asking how I can improve, and him saying “oh, I have no criticism for you! You’re doing great, I’m proud of your work” followed by him asking our new lead not to give me any important tickets while he continued forgetting to promote me. The lead gave me the important tickets anyway, I did well, and Greg still reamed him for disobedience. It was a rough time for us all and I sure as hell felt like I’d caused it.

    I have the same lead now on a different team, and we still talk about the strange requests Greg made to not give me any tickets of value for the rest of my time on his team. He gives me all the important tickets now, and the higher ups are noticing my work. It takes a strong ally to undo the work of an unconsciously biased manager or colleague, but that’s why these groups exist. To undo the damage.

    I know this was long as fuck. Thanks for reading.
  • 4
    @BrokeTheInteger that was a roller coaster of me sitting here wanting to hunt this guy down and hit him one the more I read, and I'm not a violent guy.

    There really is some sad pieces of shit out there 😞
  • 0
    @BrokeTheInteger Yeah, that was a shitty manager. Wonder if Jason was related to someone.
  • 2
    @Demolishun I know a lot about his background actually since he wanted to be friends at first. He was a talented dev with a “strange personality,” but generally easy for those before me to brush off. But I was the first female dev ever on his immediate team and this was the first time he had actually refused to approve someone’s PR for arbitrary reasons, made up fake rules, etc. Losing him would mean we lose a lot of our best work, and that was something I tried to add into the balance while it was happening. I didn’t want him gone, I just wanted him to stop hurting my career.

    My manager, who was remote, was hoping all the while that this problem would solve itself. It was no secret that his talent as a dev let him get away with behavioral issues.
  • 1
    @BrokeTheInteger I get where you are coming from, but manipulators are really good about seeming like a nice person. I get the feeling he was able to make you think he was a "nice guy with a quirky personality" when manipulation is his game. This points to a dual nature. I would not be surprised that in the future something more serious could happen. He also learned this behavior from someone. Most likely a parent manipulating another parent or he was the target.
  • 1
    @Demolishun He learned it from his dad. He had that fun quality of a military dad who never showed approval so everything he ever does is to impress his dad subconsciously.

    Wanna clarify I never thought he was a nice harmless quirky guy while this was happening, but his vibe around the office was “smart weirdo” before I arrived.
  • 1
    @BrokeTheInteger wow, that was worth the wait
Add Comment