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C0D44681518dShots fired, *grabs a chair and 🍿 *
SparkyTD236018dThis is the other side of sexism that no one seems to talk about.
netikras1790918d- Post is addressed to women ("Ladies on devrant: can you...")
- So far only 5 replies
- All the 5 replies are from men
So far so good! :D
C0D44681518dIn no particular order, and by no ways to "force your opinion", you know... coz some twitter crazy folk is going to come after me with a pitch fork for this, but for the women of devRant I can think off, of the top of my head right now. Do you have any thoughts or opinions on the matter at hand?
Oh, and if you're not actually a women, or gender inclined as such, just ignore me 🙃
Some how it's hard to ask for a women's opinion in 2019x and not sound like a dick.
nonsleep113218dI remember one line: Men jobless, women most affected.
Anyway, I saw, talked, worked with capable women. I can't say any wrong word about them. But shitfest on Twitter or other place about women not enough represented and so on, driving me nuts.
I am a real woman. I do not feel oppressed. In fact I feel empowered, but that is only because people believe I can code my weight in gold. Both male and female coworkers praise my skills and they cite my tech takes. When I have a bad tech take I get chastised for it by both men and women, and that how I know that I am not oppressed by the patriarchy in tech.
Gender has no role why recruiters flood my inboxes. Gender played no role why my ex-tech lead hired me. I was the only woman in the team. I know this much because recruitment in my country does not care about gender. Otherwise I would have as many women coworkers in nearly all of my jobs as the men.
Even my local Women Who Code (Manila) lets men participate fully in their study groups and talks. They do not have exclusive women events nor do they plan to. I asked their Director why they retained the "Women" despite letting men and LGBTQ+ into their events freely. I am amazed by her answer:
"We do not seek equal representation. We do not care for gender quotas and ratios. That's just retarded. We just want women to code as well as men. But if it comes at the cost of excluding other genders, it will be the death of our movement.
"Equal gender representation at work will come as a result of women being truly good at the craft, not because some social justice doctrine demands companies to.
"You cannot have good Women Who Code if you do not have good Men Who Code."
In my country at least, the only times I see gender-specific job openings is at the following is on strip clubs. They are looking for a male stripper, a gay stripper, or a female stripper. Gender is always specified in those.
Now for my thoughts about unequal opportunities against men.
They exist. Just because my country does not care about gender quotas doesn't mean that I deny their existence.
And I think the same way as the Director of Women Who Code Manila. Gender discrimination is retarded.
@jennytengsonM I too find your director's philosophy very valid but this still doesn't feel like a convincing point. what she is saying is that "All girls/women/lgbtq/whoever feels racism-sexism against themselves is a scared person too afraid to come in tech as they find tech as just another place where they will be discriminated. so we are encouraging them by giving them huge opportunities for free which others would have worked hard to get"
(Ok, here comes a funny discrimination point. i just assumed since males are not participating, it would be easy for you guys. apologies but look at it from the other way, the majority participants are out. would it be sexist of me or logical of me to presume it would be easy?)
So do you also think tech is same as every other industry? where you would feel oppressed and are scared to come forward. if a company says"we have 0 tolerance policy against racism/sexism" is it not enough and you still need reserved $5500 scholarships?
Lyniven446918dI don't feel oppressed at all.
I won't work for a company that recruits women just because.
@2Large How dare you. You do not know the Director of Women Who Code Manila. She is not sexist. I told you that they offer opportunities equally in all genders. I know because I hang out with them often. Some members bring their boyfriends, their husbands, and their little boys to their meetups. So don't give me that shit.
Do I think tech is the same as any other industry? Of course not. Even individual companies of the same industry are very much different from each other. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that.
Where would I feel scared to come forward? I never felt scared. I just look at life this way: If an institution doesn't want me, then I don't care, I'll just find another institution that will take me in.
If a company says they have zero tolerance for sexism then that's good enough for me. I'm not a feminist, Alex, even if my hair is blue. I don't need to get a women-only scholarship for them to prove that.
I don't obsess over why some people or companies discriminate against me. That's their problem not mine.
Honestly, while gender discrimination is real and horrible, and both your feelings (you presumably being a man and discriminated against) and the feelings of discriminated women and LGBTQ+ are valid, I think it's not the end of the careers of anyone who experienced this. You can always find a job whose recruiters don't obsess over gender quotas. You can always get grants and scholarships from orgs that don't care if you're a man. You can join fraternities if that is your thing. You can even found an all-men tech club and nobody can stop you and your bros even if all of the Twitter snowflakes come at you.
There's opportunities everywhere.
@jennytengsonM I am not saying that i know that director nor my comment was made directly towards women who code organisation. I am just saying that's how i interpret that comment from her and other people who would give the same explanation for their scholarships.
checkout this para from outreachy website:
"We expressly invite women (both cis and trans), trans men, and genderqueer people to apply. We also expressly invite applications from residents and nationals of the United States of any gender who are Black/African American, Hispanic/Latin@, Native American/American Indian, Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific Islander. Anyone who faces under-representation, systemic bias, or discrimination in the technology industry of their country is invited to apply."
this either means "hey we have opened a scholarship. and we would like to invite all of you to participate. yes even you girls, hispanics, african american,....<all the under represented people> . if you don't fall into any of those categories then you can also apply, but we will be heavily biased"
"we have opened this scholarship. only people mentioned below can apply"
@2Large You presumed that the Director of Women Who Code Manila has biases against non-women people in one of your answers to me. I'm gonna have to call you on that.
Also so what if a company/person/school has a hidden gender bias? Everyone has biases. Even the ones that don't claim that they do. A bank didn't hire me because I got a failing grade in my transcript of records. One of the leads who interviewed me just thought I was a pretty face and a good tumble in the bed, and when he couldn't convince me subtly to have sex with him, I was not shortlisted.
Honestly stop obsessing over people's tendency to discriminate against other people's groups because there's always an opposite clique out there willing to take the "defective" people in. Better yet, there's always gems of companies and orgs out there that looks out for genuine merit regardless of gender. Ignore the trash and seek out the ones worth your while.
i think i missed some part of your previous comment or you updated it just now. Yes , as i said , i too feel that gender discrimination is horrible, yes i am a man nd feeling discriminated against in many twitter snowflakes and good opportunities and while i know there are many companies that isn't interested in this gender clauses, i don't want to end this discussion simply on " you don't like it, then don't go for it" .
> This is the other side of sexism that
> no one seems to talk about.
If you are male, in an ever increasing number of countries, if you do talk about it, it will be labelled a hate crime, and you will go to prison for the rest of your life !
I'm reminded when I went to college and was told there was grants for the poor.
Being how I was poorer than everyone else, I thought getting one of those would be easy !
But I was told by staff, it was pointless even applying as males never got any grants..
That was one of my early introductions to all this malarkey.
Reminds me of:
@Nanos can't completely agree. i am currently talking about male rights and(i hope) no one is labelling me as a female hater.
And what you experienced in the college was an actual example of sexism which is rarely found in tech industry but very commonly found in other areas.
Their mentality is "hehe female student , let's support her , free marketting and promotion"
Actually now that i think of , i am feeling that this and the one the jenny's director said , these are the actual two mentalities that must exist in today's companies.
For your case its just the stupid mentality of that staff. i found jenny's one interesting though still unconvincing
I think i look to these organisations (outreachy, grace hoppers) as something specially made for oppressed or underrepresented, like a police or something.
We really want organisations like that , if today you don't find racism, then someday it will creep in.
We also really don't want to worry about those grants. If you are worthy , some other organisation would give you. Try gsoc.
Its only bad if these organisations are bad judges of whom to give the scholarship, and even in that case , why bother? Someone won a lottery, you didn't . Don't be a cry baby about it
Mosesrocks65817dI actually have to disagree. I don't know in which part of the world you work in, but sexism is still a large part of the tech industry. But in the middle east it's vastly different, women still do not get the same chances or opportunities as men do. If you're a woman you're generally believed to be inferior to men. Not that I subscribe to such ideologies.
cho-uc74717dNo, I don't feel oppressed, I feel lonely.
Have you ever been in a class/events where 90% of the people there are of opposite gender?
There are only 2 other people with the same gender as you.
Yes I can be friends with the guys, but I will be more comfortable hanging out with the women.
Even with all those women-only support whatever, the rate of women joining tech is still low.
You should try sex reassignment surgery, dress and behave like a woman for a year, then we'll see if you still have that opinion.
@cho-uc you totally bullshitted your half good comment with your last line.
Its not men's fault women do not join tech . that does not means their is bias in tech industry. My school years were totally like the classes having 1:6 female majority till 10th . and when we had to decide our choice of subjects, 90% of girls chose medical. We had 3 girls in a computer science class.
Did we bullied them? no. were they treated as superior class gems of our class? yes ? did they felt lonely? maybe . was it our fault? fucking no. Did they felt underRepesented ? hell no. if a girl didn't did any homework, the male teachers use to even think twice before giving them the same punishments as men( nd most of the times, they didnt got 1)
@TitanLannister I think you have a good point . Well that's a good and different point of view: looking towards them as NGOs.
Just a joke, but i wish we had some men's only organisations too , where "the bros"/"the dudes"/"The guys" would hang out and be supported .
Bet that even their taglines would be considered racist or sexist xD
I will wait for 24 more hours before calling off from this debate and considering @jennytengsonM 's points as the general thoughts of all women. So far , here's what i have got:
- Most of the women DO NOT feel oppressed in the tech industry but believe that female oppression exists
- Most of the women believe that they are in the tech industry due to their own hard work and efforts , like men are.
- Organisations( and people) which support oppressed people by providing "oppressed people only" scholarships/grants/jobs are doing so because they just like supporting them even when they don't need it (yes, i am still unconvinced for any other reason) or doing for some benefit (eye candies/publicity/promotion/etc)
- Most people believe that its okay for such organisations to continue doing so, not because their motives are right, but just because they prevent oppression from becoming mainstream
- Their are instances available when these oppressed people misused this power
Oh boy. That's definitely an interesting discussion. I will follow it.
@2Large you can obsess over the minutiae of gender issues all day, but it will not make you a great developer, nor great at anything for that matter. Gender-agnostic opportunities, however few they may be, will escape your notice, and you will go on with your life never having coded anything worth a damn.
Root5597017dI want to respond, but I just woke up and that's too much reading for this early.
talking in general terms, not about anyone specific, but you said it yourself: all these industries care about(or at least used to care about) is skills. and to people who were brought up being advantaged and taken into special consideration purely due to their gender (because that's how social dynamics in dimorphic species naturally works - the gender that carries children is taken into special consideration), suddenly getting into environment where they are treated based only on their skill, very much feels like oppression and discrimination, because it's percieved by them as a downgrade compared to what they were taught and got used to being the normal.
so then them organizing all these women only groups and scholarships and advantages, they percieve as "equalizing the space" and "getting rid of oppression", since they add the gynocentric advantages (that they are used to percieve as the norm, the standard) into spaces that were equal, which is why they didn't have them.
it's all about the relativity of human perception. men get off-balance by getting a compliment, because it's something significantly "above average" within the context of treatment they're used to consider being normal. if women started getting compliments and kindness with the same (in)frequency as men do, they would very quickly get clinically depressed, since within what they percieve as the normal, it would be as if world suddenly dropped into cold uncaring cruelty.
@2Large @Nanos @SparkyTD @TitanLannister
you made me remember this, btw
in middle east it's not about sexism being part of "the industry" (or any industry), rather about sexism being part of the culture. so please don't try to pretend it's the fault of the industry.
Demolishun333517dThis discussion makes me think of functional programming:
monads vs lessnads
>> because that's how social dynamics in dimorphic species naturally works - the gender that carries children is taken into special consideration
I am apologizing to anyone who gets offended in advance, but are you saying that:
1. women in tech wants a special status just because they are children carrying gender, and we always did so in other industries?
My opinion: well, i half agree to that . i fully support maternal leaves and a company's support to a girl employee during menstruation cycle an other female stuff. but other than that, aren't they just equal?
>> suddenly getting into environment where they are treated based only on their skill, very much feels like oppression and discrimination
>> all these women only groups, they perceive as "equalizing the space" and "getting rid of oppression", since they add the gynocentric advantages
>> as if world suddenly dropped into cold uncaring cruelty
2. just because they are now being judged based on their skills and not getting any points for gender, they feel oppressed and this is all just an illusion?
...My 2$: well i can't say anything anymore. what you are essentially saying is that "tech as an industry is open to everyone irrespective of cast/color/gender. But since women as a gender is biologically more complex(able to produce child, less muscular, mensturation, etc), their complexity should be considered as a compensation factor, ¬ getting one will make them feel oppressed.
if this is what you wan to say, then i think i got my ans & i find it very logical for these organisations to support and demand for women rights. But they should not claim it as "Women Equality rights", but rather "Women Speciality Rights", because equalism would consider everyone as equal, regardless of biological limitations
I want to remind everyone that i am neither a female hater nor a sexist . i am just a curious person trying to learn about a situation/ a believe/ social laws/ (i don't even know what will you call it), just like i would try to learn about anything else
My motives here are not to hurt anyone's sentiments or promote any hate, just have a small discussion and gather opinions
@jennytengsonM I am not alex de large, why do you want to know me so much :P . And as i said i am just here curious to know why those gender/race bias opportunities exist in an industry i thought to be completely skill driven.
don't worry i am near to my answers and going to end this debacle today. And what i know of devrant's algo, it will be dead soon
andpeterson40816dI'd like to quickly add my two cents. I do get a bit bothered by the fact that it's harder to get places as a white male. Especially in school when I couldn't find any scholarships having to do with my background. Everything had to be 100% merit based.
But I also want to point out. My team is all white men... I don't think that discrimination played a part. But it's a problem. We dont have unique perspectives that we would get from other backgrounds. We are building this application for white men I guess.
I don't think the current issue is with the system itself. And the hard rules set by companies and lawmakers. I think our issues now are with society and our industries past. There are a lot less women getting into CS and that's a problem. Not with the rules themselves but instead on the ideals we pass to our daughter and what type of work they are 'allowed' to do.
I've also read some rants on here from women who were told they couldn't be part of meetings cause they were women.
andpeterson40816dDevrant should add a controversial tab for discussions like this...
"1. women in tech wants a special status just because they are children carrying gender, and we always did so in other industries?"
no. women in general EXPECT special treatment, because they are by default GIVEN special treatment, so that's their baseline, that's what they consider to be the standard.
so then when, in some area, they don't get the special treatment which they think is the standard normal treatment, it feels to them, and they think, that it's sexism or discrimination.
I would like to point out that none of this is conscious, it's all just instincts and subconscious stuff.
especially the "It now feels as though I'm on my own" section is relevant for our current discussion.
"2. just because they are now being judged based on their skills and not getting any points for gender, they feel oppressed and this is all just an illusion?"
of course, not always in all cases, there's also legitimate sexism out there (directed at both sides), but it seems the most significant culprit is this effect. again, i recommend reading the article that I linked, and also this woman is an interesting case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
The wiki is pretty sparse, but from what I know, a (former) feminist who decided to live disguised as a man for a year to explore "male privilege and toxic masculinity".
After the experiment, she needed to be treated for mental health issues, mainly deppression, and from what I know, it wasn't because of the "toxic masculinity".
"Devrant should add a controversial tab for discussions like this..."
i very strongly disagree. the whole site is overrun by all kinds of strong emotions, and nobody has an issue with that, so why should there be an issue, or, you might say, *special consideration* for topics regarding women? i mean, any other reason besides homo sapiens being naturally a gynocentric species.
( @2Large wink wink, nudge nudge )
NoMad11916d"I have female friends who are actually dumber than other people but gaining big advantage due to this gender bias"
Because women can't be mediocre without being called dumb or singled out. I also have seen many dumb as fuck men who got where they are because of the "bro culture". How is that fair?
I was asked in an interview if I have any issue working with a team full of guys. Or if I was "easily offended". Mind you, I don't see myself as "feminine" or "womanly" but my cup F tits are apparently a big obstacle for recruitment. I have also tested this theory: if I put ANY makeup on for interview, I'll get turned down for the job right after. Idk how that's not sexist in your view.
And I don't know about real oppression, (because my male colleagues have always backed me up) but equality is when a mediocre woman dev is not singled out, not when women are technically "allowed" to do things.
It's just like the oppression for male nurses or male pre-school teachers.
NoMad11916dBut here's the thing : like any other normal person, I go where the money is. If they're giving me free scholarship, even if it is because it says so on my birth certificate that I've got a vajayjay, I'm taking the fucking scholarship. Anyone who's jealous, can go fucking complain but as long as they're giving me free money, I'm taking it. (even if it means I'll study computers instead of liberal arts)
> "oppressed people only"
I'm reminded of a place once where the IT department had 99.9% of one type of person, and 0.01% of the other type of people.
Someone decided they should have 90% and 10% as a target in 2 years time.
The only way to meet that target would be that every new hiring from now till 2 years, was someone from that 10%..
Yet building 2, where folk earned twice as much as folk in IT, had things the other way around, 0.01% of one type of person, and 99.9% of the other type.
Yet no one made noises there about how they should address the balance !
The problem is when every place is like that, and if you suddenly find yourself in the wrong group, getting hired will suddenly be, oddly difficult to impossible !
I'm reminded of someone I knew who was in the right group and got a job simply because they was the right religion, that was the only question they asked in the interview !
> i am just a curious person
Me 2 !
But my experience of asking any sort of question about anything, no matter how amazingly fantastically you aren't X, people will start calling you X simply because you mention the subject.
This is why 98% of people in groups never say anything !
I diverse design team is both a good thing and a bad thing.
It can be a good thing because issues can be spotted by one person that no one else spots, and solutions offered in the same way.
It can be a bad thing if someone bullies the team into making a product with a bad political aim.
An example of that would be say left and right handed products.
Many products are right-handed only.
It would be sensible to make a product also available in left-handed design.
It would be politically motivated to change a product from right-handed to left-handed only..
Sexism is prevelant in the industry. We'd like to believe everything is based on meritocracy but that is not the ground reality. Sexism, favoritism and racism is there. Just because it's happening behind closed doors doesn't mean it ain't happening.
You might want to read the investigative report about the bro culture of Riot Games.