That I'm going to be the oldest person in every stack of "junior" applicants anywhere I apply.

Worse, "its working" is rarely enough for me to be satisfied with something i've done to the point of publicly displaying it, so it's liable to be next year or the year after before my portfolio has enough projects in it to even be considered.

If that's the case I'll be pushing forty before I actually find a job. Hopefully my code won't look like a junior's by then and I'll advance fairly quickly but Im not naive enough to believe that I could just skip over that rung of the ladder entirely. Generally, practice only gets you so far in any field, the rest comes after you've actually worked in it.

Part of me is saying to just go the freelance route but that just involves a whole new list of insecurities based on no production and very little backend experience, so it's liable to be just as long before I'm comfortable taking on everything that a client would require me to do.

Even then I'll still have to figure out how to not rip myself off when I try to make them a quote. Judging from how it went with the mechanic service, that part will take a while to get right all on its own. I was so bad at quoting repair tickets that first year, people were routinely paying me more than what I asked them for because they knew I couldn't be charging enough. And I had worked in that field for several years already 🀦🏻‍♂️

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    My response is to get that insecurity out of the way now. Straight up BEFORE you are ready.

    Go in unprepared so you know what the *worst* is. Get comfortable with "no" and "not what we are looking for."

    You are NEVER going to FEEL like you know everything you need to know to be "qualified."

    That's not even up to you to decide. That's up to the hiring managers.

    So get it out of the way now like ripping off a bandaid.

    The way I do things is I go in like im going for coffee with someone I just met. I'm not there to be hired. Im there to ask them about their work, what they do, what they like, as well as what I do and enjoy and relate it back to their own experience.

    A lot like discovering a new acquaintance likes the same band as you, but they know way more of the bands back history than you do!

    Do that. Don't go for an interview. Go to talk to someone one on one without any further motivation than to see if you like each other first.

    All interviews are really just foreplay.
  • 1
    @Wisecrack that's another issue. There aren't many dev jobs near here so everything I'm applying for is remote. Face to face interviews I've never had a problem bullshitting my way through, qualified or not, but I have no idea how I'll do in a remote interview. If it's conducted by phone I don't have a prayer.

    Not that I haven't been applying anyway, but so far it doesn't seem like anyone is interested. One person did take the time to send an email saying check back in 6 months when I have more "experience," which was nice of them but also somewhat annoying because I actually met most of the requirements, they just couldn't tell glancing over the 3 or 4 things that I've put on my web page. For all they knew I started learning 3 months ago, not three years.
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    @M1sf3t it might be a way of them saving face because they want to hire you but can't right now.

    It's putting you on the backburner.

    Maybe a couple mock interviews can help you in this.

    Do you ever talk to people on line in chat or someshit? Thats the approach I would take. It's just talking to someone online, not a potential employer.

    Also email, don't call. Studies show male managers are as comfortable making decisions based on email as they are face to face.

    I usually ask things like "Hey I wont hold you to any commitments and I'm not asking for a referal or anything, but between you and me, do you thnk I have a shot getting hired with your company? Heres my qualifications (short and sweet). Do you know if your company happens to be looking for these skills?"

    That changes it from a judgement about YOU, to a 'simple and professional question' which is a matter of courtesy and easy to answer. Either "not that I know of." , or "yeah, actually. matter of fact."
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    It also takes you out of the job-openings circuit and into the semicasual corporate circuit which is much more trusted, informal, and less bureaucratic, where people "know a guy who knows a guy whos looking for those skills."

    Specifying beforehand that you're a junior is a *plus* not a *negative* because 1. it's true so it changes expectations, and 2. some manager whos looking for cheap labor and isn't too picky might think you're an easy score and give you the time of day. 3. it lets them know beforehand what to expect from you, instead of getting to an interview and them expecting the world.

    There will still be plenty that do but people can be very forgiving when prompted in the right way.

    Another one when they turn you down is 'Well thanks for taking the time of day anyway. I appreciate it. Will you keep me in mind if anything changes on your end and you need a warm body?"

    Because a lot of managers are hiring, just NOT at any given moment. Circumstances change, you know?
  • 0
    By the way, I take it you have a github account?
  • 2
    @Wisecrack just on the svelte discord. For as much as I have to say sometimes I really suck at idle small talk so I generally have to stick to habitats relevant to what Im working with.

    And networking on the svelte discord only accomplishes so much. There aren't many companies using it yet and everyone there is itching to drop whatever framework they're stuck working with for an opportunity to develop with that. I'd have to wait for them to sign on to a senior role and then get enough of the project started to warrant hiring the less experienced.

    I've got a github but its only for the login. I use gitlab for my repo.

  • 0
    @M1sf3t actually thats sounds like a hireable opportunity.

    If people want to leave something, it comes down to them convincing their bosses to do a port.

    "Well who here knows how to do that?"

    "Well no one boss, but I know a guy."

    Might be tough with the current hiring environment, like you said.

    Maybe you can get in on a meeting via an invite by an acquaintance, seeing as everything is online now anyway.

    You're gonna have to show employers anyway, might as well show others while you're at it.

    On that note, what exactly am I looking at? Are these templates you branched and customized or something else? Tell me what it is.

    You have somewhere where you're hosting the portfolio so it's accessible as a webpage?

    Help me out here, I'm tired and it's late where I'm at.
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    one is a svelte frontend that i was using at one point but I think everything there has been added to the portfolio already. Thats built with sapper.

    The hosted page is at m1sf3t.gitlab.io/Portfolio
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    the template is one that somebody modified from the original to work with the gitlab pages pipeline. The guy forgot to add the new route to the manifest and the build and dev environments weren't working, so that simple fix is like my one and only commit pulled to someone else's repo. πŸ˜…
  • 0
    @M1sf3t looks competent enough.

    You got to remember something about entry level.

    Something like FIVE PERCENT of people can even write a for loop to solve a basic word problem.

    It's that low.

    "Everybody can code" is a fucking joke.

    I understand now why entry level programming jobs don't hire based on portfolio. They give these simple shit tests like "write fibonacci" because maybe a tenth of the people who come actually can.

    No I am not joking.

    They say "we dont train people", well if by that they mean even being able to use the language *at all* then yes, they don't.

    But in reality if you can write a for loop, or build a website, you are qualified.

    Isn't that fucking sad?

    Not that you're qualified but that the bar is that low.

    Your website looks fine. Go start applying for front end. If theres no jobs for svelte, and you don't want to learn react, pick up something like vue. Maybe fill out the design and add a little content.

    Ignore all detractors.
  • 2
    @Wisecrack thanks. I tell myself exactly that, just get a bunch of stuff up and working and then worry about what the code looks like later becaise noone is going to care when looking for a junior. But I still go back and start fucking with shit thats already been done every time I finish something new. Like last night I spent trying to figure out how to write my whole animation request into a store so I'd quit having to start and stop it in each new route. wasn't really necessary but I did it anyway for convenience later.

    I get a few more things done I probably will start looking into vue. Everyone that comes to svelte from there says the two are really similar. I've tried react already and felt like it was overly complicated for the benefit it brought. Angular has never looked all that appealing either, tho I've only glanced at a few projects made with it.
  • 1
    @M1sf3t I'd just focus on who's hirng for what.

    Svelte is nice and level-headed and really smart, but ultimately the jobs aren't there for it (yet).
  • 2
    @Wisecrack yea i was hopin that would change when I started messing with it last year. I still needed to brush up on es6 and svelte let me do that without tossing in a bunch of boilerplate that made me question what was just js and what was specific to the framework. That wasn't case with react, I never knew what docs to turn to when I ran into a question.

    But it never occurred to me that, even if it did catch on, the initial jobs would be for seniors that could trusted to setup a brand new project, which seems to be the case for most except for a few ppl that are taking advantage of being able to import svelte components into their existing frameworks. That'll prob be what I start workin on next, a portable component library
  • 1
    @M1sf3t good, it could really use one.

    Sapper is pretty cool too.
  • 1
    @M1sf3t If it's to get a job, maybe you want to learn and show something a bit more market friendly? I only see svelte and stuff, how about some React, Angular, Bootstrap, Node, Django, Flask, etc.? Admittedly I just glanced over it.

    Basically look around to see what people are hiring for and target that.
  • 1
    @RememberMe no your right, I'm gonna include a section for some generic web templates that Ill probably use bootstrap and a couple other libraries for but its an issue of time and what I find more interesting, which is the js heavy stuff with plenty of interactivity.

    As far as other frameworks, I haven't decided if I was going to make a separate project or attempt to fight with rollup and mix them into this one. The page is a static export generated automatically from the dynamic build, one of the sapper features, and I'm not entirely sure how well the process will work having other frameworks mixed in.

    But Vue is definitely on the agenda, possibly react too since I've already spent a couple of months with grider's udemy course. It's just getting to them that's the problem, I've got to pick a point to switch focus and right now doing so would mean leaving this giant layout I created somewhat empty looking. Then again I might could just add links pointing to another repo πŸ€”
  • 0
    @M1sf3t don't overcomplicate it, you want to push your portfolio out asap.
    You could just have one repo with your different sites in different languages and a master index.html that links to all of them.

    Apply Amdahl's law :p

    If you're going to take way longer to do something that helps only a tiny little bit then it's worthless
  • 2
    @RememberMe I meant set up another gitlab page for the other frameworks and then link it from this one. Bundler and server configurations are my achilles heel if for no other reason because its not very often I have a reason to mess with them.

    But yea I struggle with work vs gain. I see something that can be done better and have a hard time ignoring it to start on something new. Same for overcomplicating things. I'll see some benefit for it way down the road and I'll waste time trying to go ahead and set that up instead of going with the less time consuming option then refactoring when I actually need to.

    Worse I can see that I'm wasting time as I'm doing it, I just can't turn it off. I think it's something I managed to acquire from childhood, not just perfectionism but the idea that if you can't put the time into making something perfect that you might as well quit before you get started. Most likely what got me into this position in the first place.
  • 0
    @M1sf3t I suffer from the same thing. Knowing when to stop.

    Focus on doing one thing right, and if the end result works, leave it alone and start on the next thing.

    Only improve things when they start to obstruct or overcomplicate the actual work at hand.

    Thats how I learned to "code ugly" and get things working without worrying too much about it.

    Once you do, you'll realize just how MUCH time you were losing improving things that don't need improving *at the current moment*.

    Don't do *any* more work than is *absolutely necessary* to achieve what you're going for.

    This is the zen of lazy programmers.

    All true programmers find the laziest method of reaching their result. No matter how ugly.

    You can't really learn, or be mentally ready to do something *correct* until you are *fed up* with the wrong way.

    Doing something "right" the first time is orthogonal to early optimization. You're not even fully aware of final requirements at that point.
  • 0
    tl;dr Focus on what you're trying to *do*, not *how* you or others THINK it *should* be done.

    Prove it works first, and can be done in the simplest and ugliest way possible.

    Develop that habit and soon you'll find yourself less and less uncomfortable with the ugly code and you'll develop the all important habit of every good programmer: saying "fuck it! good enough!' and leaving the code alone, like a compost pile.

    useful but smelly. Who wants to touch that shit?

    nobody. And thats exactly the point. If it works, let it work as is, until additional work and improvement is demanded and not a moment before.
  • 1
    @Wisecrack I hear you, but the problem is we're talking about breaking a 35 year old habit here. Anything I ever tried that I didn't immediately find my way to the top of I was pressured into quitting so that I could have more time to study. Which was literally everything because perfect grades had to be my absolute top priority and I never had time left over to work on anything else.

    So basically I put aside everything I ever wanted to do in order to pursue perfection in the thing that I could give two shits about. And I do mean perfection, just being at the top of the class was only a mere appeasement that prevented me from getting yelled at when I got home πŸ™„
  • 2
    @RememberMe @Wisecrack for the record, I wasn't trying to feed you guys a bunch of excuses earlier. More trying to say y'all are preaching to the choir, I just can't seem to bring myself to do any differently.

    Even now the styles on what I have are bugging the shit out of me and it only took three people to convince me that the landing page would be fine without the animations being finished before I would even make the stupid thing public.

    Never mind that everything breaks on mobile. The only reason I'm not already fucking with that is because my iphone and mac are currently incompatible so I'd have to play a guessing game in order to fix anything.
  • 1
    @M1sf3t What you need is some face time with someone who will tell you, to your face, in no uncertain terms, you're at minimum, qualified.

    There are people *less* capable than you *currently* working in the software industry.

    You want to see someone whos *not* qualified? *I* am. The incompetent always recognize our own, and you're not one of us. Why you think I talk constant shit?

    Quit your bullshit, and go find a job.

    Employers will like that you're never satisfied.

    Lean on that. Talk about how you could improve something. Discuss your projects. What you would improve. Hell go on *their* web pages and discuss what you would change. Talk about what you are currently improving on and what your study plans are for the future. What hiring companies want is just two things 1. either cheap barely skilled labor or 2. unicorns that know everything. You fall somewhere in the middle. In fact, go apply *today* and see what happens. Call it an experiment.

    And good luck.
  • 1
    @Wisecrack given your recent prime rants I highly doubt your incompetent. Far-reaching and somewhat outside the box maybe but not incompetent.

    But thanks. I do need to start going straight to the company. I've already got a couple people that I trust to give me a straight opinion telling me that I'm at least on par with where I need to be both directly and indirectly with comments about going back to school being a waste of time at this point.

    Think the job boards I've been on are just getting to me because they either have a ridiculous amount of requirements or like @RememberMe said, they're looking for someone that can work with a specific framework that I'm not well versed in.
  • 1
    @M1sf3t "Think the job boards I've been on are just getting to me because they either have a ridiculous amount of requirements"

    Yeah that is what used to intimidate me too.

    But you do realize there are 1. people ho aren't qualified (according to the ad) applying, and 2. some of those people are being hired anyway.

    Part of it is to attract the best, the other part is to make it easy for them to negotiate your salary lower. "well now that we met you do *want* to hire you, but not for what you're asking. Oh come on, you don't even meet the requirements, we're giving you a break here."

    And they know people will accept it.

    But I take it you only recently changed professions? And look how much you progressed.

    Get your feet wet a little. Tell you what. Go apply for something this week. Not to get the job but just to see what the process is like. Employers are used to all sorts of applications, including people just testing the waters. It's just another day for them.

    Go do it.
  • 1
    Better still, if you get an interview in the next two weeks I promise not to make another math post for at least the next six months. Not a job, just an interview.

    You're devrant's only hope to be saved from more shitposting.

    I want to know how it goes my man so keep me in the loop.

    NO PRESSURE lol.
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