15
frogstair
52d

Why is working with Java such a pain in the ass? All Java-oriented IDEs eat up gigabytes of ram, have unusable interfaces with millions of switches and options and input fields, are slow as shit
And all the cli tools like gradle or whatever is used are also incredibly slow and wasteful in resources like why can I run a build, have breakfast and take a shower, and come back to it still not done???
Why do people still use this piece of shit language and not move on

Comments
  • 16
    Because that's how you can log 8 hours in your timesheet and do something else in the meantime.
  • 15
    Because Java is nearly as fast as C++ with JIT nanananana, and you would expect at least tools by devs for devs to showcase that, such as Eclipse, but fucking no. Instead, they demonstrate why Java didn't make it on the desktop.
  • 4
    @theKarlisK I like your way of thinking
  • 4
    What IDE are you using?
    Do not dare to insult me with Eclipse
  • 2
    @Ranchonyx I tried intellij and eclipse. Both suck ass one is an ovelbloated piece of shit the other one is an outdated and ovelbloated piece of shit
    Why do both of them need like 3 text windows to show me what's going on?
  • 8
    I think it has to do with its origin

    Java originally competed with C and C++ and the selling point was no memory management and platform independence.

    I that setting a good IDE was not a requirement for success.

    The languages that had good IDE’s, turbo pascal and visual basic was not a competitive alternative.

    And being quite alone in the fast cross platform java gained a lot of momentum.

    Also, one problem with a fast IDE is that it requires language understanding.

    In Visual Studio, before the new roslyn compiler, the IDE had it’s own specially designed parser/compiler to power the context highlighting, intellisense and error reporting since the real compiler could not provide this.

    I don’t know if java had anything like that or provides interfaces for that.

    And the developer of the language does not build any IDE of their own.

    That makes it much harder for the IDE makers to do since they would have to stay on top of any new java feature or risk having their IDE break on every update.

    Also, most IDE’s for java is open source if I remember and that means you have to make money some other way.

    MS can afford to give away their IDE’s since they make money in the other end in most cases.

    I might have missed some facts and if anyone spots something, please correct me :)
  • 1
    @frogstair IntellIJ is amazing, in my experience at least.
    The reason for the eating of tons of RAM, well.
    IntellIJ itself is a java program.
    That should explain it to some extent.
    Pretty sure you can set the VM options to allocate less RAM.
  • 0
    @Voxera companies like jet brains sell their ides for absurd prices, at least there I would expect some sort of efficiency in the workflow, but no
    It's just as clunky and slow as all the other ones that are open source and free

    @Ranchonyx if I search through thousands of settings and find the one that reduces the ram the program becomes slow again because the VM isn't allowed enough ram
  • 1
  • 2
    @frogstair absurd? I don't agree. They work great. On top of that, a good community version
  • 5
    "Why do people still use this piece of shit language and not move on"

    Because it's a strongly typed, tried and tested enterprise language that's well known, with a lot of support behind it, reasonably simple to work with, and works very well on the server side of things. There's arguably better languages out there in any one of those categories, but not many that fulfil all those categories.

    Yeah, the IDEs gobble up memory generally. On the flip side though, this isn't your typical VScode style "editor with a console", IntelliJ is a full, enterprise level, heavyweight IDE. Last time I compared it with a comparable IDE (visual studio for instance), VS was actually *worse* with a single, comparable project open.
  • 2
    @rooter absurd for just a frontend for a compiler someone else made

    @AlmondSauce well after 26 years there already exist languages that excel in all those points, such as Go. It's faster, easier to work with, strongly typed with a lot of support. And on the IDE side of things, I managed to achieve whatever intellij was trying to with vscode and a couple of extentions, and it didn't make my computer unusable. And we don't talk about vs, its just as bad
  • 3
    @frogstair

    "well after 26 years there already exist languages that excel in all those points, such as Go"

    Go and Kotlin are probably the languages that come closest. But neither are anywhere near as well known as Java. Try hiring a team of experienced Go or Kotlin devs - it's monumentally harder than hiring for Java devs. (Not sure I'd agree Go is necessarily easier to work with either.)

    "And on the IDE side of things, I managed to achieve whatever intellij was trying to with vscode and a couple of extentions"

    No, you didn't. You managed to achieve what *you were doing* with VScode and a couple of extensions. And that's great - if it suits you, stick with it. But there's a reason so many of us use IntelliJ for Java development on a daily basis. I highly doubt you've got the same level of refactoring tools, spring cloud tools, Kubernetes integration, Maven /Gradle publishing integration etc. with a couple of VSCode extensions.
  • 1
    If you want a really good IDE, you have to go to Microsoft. Visual studio probably still is the top IDE on the market.
    No chance for a small company like JetBrains or the Eclipse Foundation to compete with the scyscraper full of devs, Microsoft throws at its IDE.

    But IntelliJ should still be a pretty good IDE too. And Eclipse is probably also usable - now that 16 GiB RAM is the minimum for a developer PC anyway.

    Regardless of which IDE you use:
    You have to configure them. Do not use the defaults.
    All current big IDEs come with a shitton of bloat features you will never want to use.
    The problem is, that what for one dev is bloat, for another is a life saver.
    You really have to configure it yourself.
  • 2
    People comparing eclipse with jetbrains stuff didn't use the paid version of jetbrains very long i guess. A lot of extra framework supports and stuff. Vs code comparable to jetbrains? NEVER 😂

    Minor comment for the vs code fans: did you guys check theia? Amazing. Or Monaco: implement vs code in your own way apps
  • 2
    Jetbrains latest intellij update is a marked perf improvement.
  • 1
    @frogstair what are the specs of your machine?

    As others have pointed out, Java IDEs (especially intellij) are usually built for enterprise deployment and are usually run on pretty powerful workstations. If you have enough for their needs they're very pleasant to work with with all this bells and whistles that only really start mattering at large scale. This isn't just a souped up vim or vscode after all.

    Tools are tailored to their markets. You're not the type being targeted by Intellij.
  • 0
    I don't think you can blame the IDE fully.

    IntelliJ is not a bad IDE per se.

    But it suffers from thing called "missing standards".

    Afaik IntelliJ asks you in enterprise mode when initial setup runs what it should support in form of plugins and what.

    Now if you let everything enabled by default, it becomes very funky.

    Support for gradle, Maven, Ant, SBT.
    Support for GIT, Subversion, Mercury.
    Support for ....

    I remember the dialog being a a 3 or 4 box wide panel with at least 3 or 4 rows.

    When you disable everything, the IDE is way less annoying.

    The rest is dependent on your machine and how fucked the project is.

    If you load 2G of text from an large project splitted in thousand of small files, yeah.

    Shit is burning, yo.

    And Java is really nefarious when it comes to " look I'm special, I've implemented every dumb lang feature possible cause I'm advanced shit."

    And the tooling. Oh boy.

    The deeper I dive in some stuff like SBT the more I want an extra loan for pain management. They seem to have inherited the "special" way of thinking. Cause some things are just over complicated instead of being simple and dumb.

    To the VSCode fanboys: VSCode is decent. But even with plugins, it lacks severely in analysis and understanding of code.

    Take away the plugins and it's an rather over blown text editor. Would prefer Kate instead tbh.

    All in all it's the trouble of either "proprietary" / closed / standardized platforms (C #, Rust, ...) vs those where the platform is consisting of a compiler and the rest was left as is ( C, Java, C++… )

    For what it's worth, I think IntelliJ is good in what it does. But it has to support every nook and cranny you could possible have and that's where it gets bad. Positive thing - they let you configure it. And they have a search function plus a ton of docu.

    Does it take time? Yes. But come on. An IDE is your daily tooling - I don't start cooking without "mis en place", too. Some things are better prepped.
  • 0
    1. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/...
    2. You made a bad hardware choice for your primary machine.
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