I think I've began to notice a human behaviour.

When you are a beginner and want help with something, no one wants to help..

But once you aren't a beginner, folk want to help !

What gives !

Is it because as humans, we don't want to help folk who might turn out useless, we only want to make sure bets, and help someone who already doesn't really need help..

Sort of jumping on the bandwagon type thing..

Sucks when you are beginner and no one wants to help you !

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    In order to be worth helping, you have to put in some effort. People want to invest their limited time in things that matter. Plenty of people will waste your time if you let them.
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    many beginners ask for help, only to lose interest and give up when the task gets boring or too complicated for them.


    Reminds me of an ex's sister who wanted me to show them how to wire a plug.

    After a few minutes she threw a hissy fit and stormed off to her room, declaring it was taking too long and was too difficult.

    This was an 1st class degree educated woman in her 20's..
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    Beginners often have so many questions, its hard to find a guide for them that answers them all.

    Much better if they have real people they can just ask I find.

    One reason I like MMORPG games, in the chat channels, I can ask, "How do I fix my plumbing ?" questions and get a good range of replies in seconds !

    Rather than spending hours searching the internet trying to find answers to 20 questions about how to fix my plumbing..
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    But aren't most people serious by the very nature of wanting to learn something in the first place ?

    Though I have seen folk one minute declare an undying interest in building a garage, and the next minute, burning all the wood because the task is too difficult, even when you offered to do all the design work for them, and help to build it..
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    I was noticing someone working on a similar project to mine, only they got help when I didn't..

    The only difference being, they already finished 4 related projects and I haven't done 1 yet.

    So, when I've finished 4 related projects, will folk magically then be rushing to help me on my 5th ?

    Does that mean, if I want folk to organise into a group and build a solar farm, I first have to build my own solar farm before they will take any notice of my suggestion !

    Of course, if that is true, that means, no one will get together to build a fusion reactor, because no ones built one that works yet..
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    What people usually ask me is like "how do I get started with C#?" And i have no idea. I've done this before tutoring videos and interactive coding sites became a thing.
    Ask specific questions. Like, why does my textbox update when the property is set
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    Beginners tend to ask for help without trying to find the answer on their own. Once they've got a bit of experience, they tend to Google a bit. But telling someone to Google a bit first isn't a refusal to help them, looking on stack overflow is a skill in itself.
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    That’s why I don’t like helping newbies in video games. Don’t ask me how to craft x or upgrade y, figure it out! Let me know you’re sharp and can figure out stuff and then I’ll help you out with ressources and tips. So much time wasted helping out people just to never see them log back on ever again.
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    I find when you are a beginner, it takes you ages to find answers to the most simple questions since you don't even know how to phrase the question !

    "That blue thing, what is it and how do I plug it in?"

    Isn't a very google friendly question..

    I'm reminded in the very early days of the internet, when we was all beginners, folk was more helpful to others who knew nothing.

    I still see that in a few places these days, for example nuclear reactor design, like, "Can I use an old wine bottle as a containment chamber ?"

    The answer being, yes you can. :-)
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    > Don’t ask me how to craft x or

    > upgrade y, figure it out!

    If I have the time and I'm around, I give out answers by the bucket load.

    I remember doing that in a college computer course, when I wasn't there, everyone struggled and spent so much time trying to figure out the simple beginner stuff.

    When I was there, I could zip around the class after doing all my own work and help everyone who was stuck.

    It really speeded up productivity, folk got up and running far quicker.

    Kinda like when someone new arrives at work, and no one shows them how to do stuff, it takes months for them to be actually contributing instead of still learning on the job.

    I'm a big fan of helping folk more in the beginning when they really need it, as well as later on when they get stuck on something that I know the answer to and it doesn't take me long to explain it.


    Folk do have a good point about folk you help, who you never see again !

    Maybe they got run over by a bus..
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    I wonder if there is a way to tell the difference between someone who if you do help, will continue, and someone else who will just give up anyway ?
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    You know, somewhere else I have noticed this is with hippy groups, or groups of poor people.

    They all sit around doing nothing.

    At first they say, "We don't know what to do.."

    But, when one of them suggests some really good ideas, they take no notice, and continue to sit around !

    Usually what happens is that person, or a handful of like-minded such folk, leave and go and do their own thing..

    If a rich person shows up and tells them to do the exact same thing one of their poor members told them earlier, they go and do it !

    Why do they only take notice of the rich person ?

    Of course, usually the rich person wants to exploit them..

    But take Elon Musk for example, he can suggest an idea, and everyone thinks its wonderful and rushes around trying to do it.

    But, non-Elon's have been saying the same thing for years..

    Is this one of the big reasons why groups of poor people remain poor, because they just don't listen to their poor neighbours ideas ?
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    I'm reminded of years ago a BBS system users wanted the internet, but the BBS system owner said, "NO!".

    So, the users got together, and built an internet connection, starting a company in the process.

    Did that happen because none of them was poor, and they all took notice of each others advice ?

    Is that why some poor people pretend to be rich, so people take more notice of their ideas.. ?

    I notice it works in MMORPG's. :-)
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    Because beginners ask beginner questions, and these aren't worth wasting time with because they could just google them.

    "But but but I want my question answered personally because I'm a special snowflake and..." yeah go fuck yourself, and the only thing I'd do for you personally is ripping you a second asshole.
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    I learned to program in the 80s with a literal 5 foot tall stack of books.

    So go read a 5 foot tall stack of books (Or like literally all of stack overflow) and then get back to me.
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    Reminds me of a supercomputer I got once, it came with 300+ manuals !
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    Here's a beginner question I have googled, and can't easily find the answer..

    I've also asked in a few car forums, and no one seems to know the answer either !

    What is the best blink rate for a vehicle indicator, the lowest legal amount, the highest, or something in-between ?

    I've never installed indicators before, so I want to choose the most ideal safety speed, and not just, any old speed module from Ebay..
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    @Nanos That depends on your local legislation.

    Over here, anything related to car lights would be in the German road traffic licencing act (Straßenverkehrszulassungsordnung - yes, one word!), and that prescribes 1.5Hz +/- 0.5Hz. If you design for the centre value, you retain the full tolerance range.

    It cost me one minute to google that one for my country.
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    The technical answer, I could find that..

    The answer I'm after is the bit you said:


    If you design for the centre value, you retain the full tolerance range.


    And, lets choose the middle, because..

    Well, just because that's a sensible answer, like, how long should my shelf be, well, how about half the length of your wall..

    The question is, what is the best answer, from a safety point of view, which blink rate is going to offer the most in terms of, being visible, not causing accidents.

    Asking around elsewhere, one answer a very old person put out was they reckoned the slowest blink rate would be best, on the basis that a high one would be more easily confused with a steady light status, which would be confused with a static roadworks light, rather than fixed to a vehicle, and thus expected to be at the side of the road, and not in the middle of it.

    This is a good logical answer.
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    This example brings forth a typical answer, which begs the question of, did you understand my question ?

    Is English not your first language ?

    Could I have worded it in such a manner that it was more clear what my question was ?

    I wasn't after the technical legal side of things at all, I was only after the, what value should I choose between the legal limits that offer the most road safety angle.

    Did that not appear to be my question as you read it ?

    If so, how should I have written it so it was more easily understood ?
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    Often if I don't fully understand what someone's question is, I ask more questions to better determine what their question really is about.

    Do humans have a tendency to answer a question with an answer they think is right, because they think they know the exact question, when they don't ?

    This reminds me of arguments you have with your loved one over very minor things, when you ask them what kind of chips do they want, they say, "French fries!".

    You give them crinkle cut fat chips, and they complain that isn't what they asked for !
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    @Nanos Well, you asked what the legal boundary values were, which the local law tells, and which value to choose within that range.

    Basically, any value within the legal window is deemed to be safe, or else it wouldn't be allowed. The centre value should be best because it it were not, the authorities would have chosen a different centre value in the first place.

    The one key thing that can prevent an accident isn't the exact indicator frequency - it's that the driver actually uses the indicator before (!) making any change to speed or course.
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    Ah !

    Now I see the issue, its a communication problem. ( Very common ! )

    You thought I said X, when I said Y !


    you asked what the legal boundary values were, which the local law tells, and which value to choose within that range.


    Looking closely @ what I wrote, I can see how you might have thought I was asking that question.

    I said:


    What is the best blink rate for a vehicle indicator, the lowest legal amount, the highest, or something in-between ?


    Perhaps if I had said:

    What is the best blink rate for a vehicle indicator, between the lowest and highest legal values ?

    Not what are the legal values !

    Is a low blink rate better than a high blink rate ?

    Is that a better worded question ?
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    This a wonderful example of communication difficulties between beginners, who may not know how to ask a question in a such a manner as to entirely clear what they want to know, and people who may have trouble understand what folk are trying to say.

    I find this is quite a common issue, and you can also see it in treaty negotiations where both sides can actually be in agreement about something, but they both think the other side disagrees !

    As such, it can take several back and forth communication efforts for both sides to really understand each other enough to be on the same page as the saying goes.
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    The centre value should be best because it it were not, the authorities would have chosen a different centre value in the first place.


    A good logical argument.

    And is what I usually choose when I have no idea of any better answer to hand.

    Asking a bunch of old well experienced vehicle users, I had expected at least one of them to have a view on blink rates. :-)

    Since they tend to have a view on everything else to the extreme !

    I'm trying to tweak my vehicle design to be that little bit better than everyone else's, making use of the best science, and global collective wisdom.

    So I'm looking for any tiny edge of improvement.

    Next question will be, what wavelength of light to use, and at what brightness level is the most ideal for indicators. :-)

    Then probably, what is the best angle for indicators, and their ideal height on a vehicle, and how many..

    ( My current design has 6 each side, with one at the top of the vehicle in the middle. )
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    @Nanos From a safety point of view, all legal values are deemed safe, that's why they are legal.

    Hence your question doesn't make much sense. What data would you even base an answer on? How would one determine that too low or too high a blink rate had caused an accident?

    As long as the driver sticks to "look, then blink, then change speed/course", it will be safe within the legal blink rate limits. The point of the limits is to set an expectation range for other drivers.

    Compared to countless idiots who fail to use the indicators at all before e.g. a lane change, and who also fail to even look over the shoulder, the blink rate just doesn't have measurable impact.
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    @Nanos The variation within the legal range is more about car psychology, i.e. how the car manufacturer thinks his customers want to come across.

    A slower blink rate is appropriate for large cars whose drivers want to signal "hey, I'm fucking big, and I also want you to think I have a big dick, that's why I'm driving this hopelessly oversized car just to haul my fucking ass around".

    A faster blink rate conveys agility, which is more appropriate for smaller cars. The feeling is like "hey, I'm a cute beep-bop thing, meow meow see how I can slide into the smallest space just like a cat".
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    Interesting, so if I go for slow blink, folk will think I'm some kind of lardy vehicle they best not bump into or it will ruin their paintwork !

    Actually, as vehicles go, mine will be lardy. :-)

    Mine will also be rather slow..
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    What data would you even base an answer on? How would one determine that too low or too high a blink rate had caused an accident?


    Anecdotal would be a good starting point.

    Like flashing cycle lights, I hear from folk, they are a bad idea..

    Collect a few hundred such reports, and you begin to think, hey, maybe flashing lights on bicycles are a bad idea !

    I've yet to really hear much about blink rates.

    I had hoped folk might give some experiences where high, or low blink rates caused a particular issue for them.

    If lots of folk said, high was bad, and low as good, then I'd go with low.

    So far, only one person has said, low is good, high is bad.

    You suggested middle, I'd suggest middle, so currently, its middle to low..

    Might go for half way between middle and low..

    Until more information or someone mentions a science like study into the question. :-)
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