We got a list of new candidates for PhD positions in the lab. There are a lot of people from the Middle East, and it made me wonder if there might be an issue with me being an Israeli.

So if there are engineers here from the Middle East, and Muslim countries in general, would you see an issue with working with an Israeli?

I sure hope they won't
That sort of behaviour is extremely unprofessional

@LotsOfCaffeine I know but it happens...
The reason Israel competes in the EU sports events despite being geographically in Asia, is because a lot of countries refuse to even compete against us.
So I can see this sort of attitude also affecting academia. Even if the people themselves don't have strong opinions on Israel, the fact that they are willing to cooperate with an Israeli might put them and their families at risk, because the regime is against it.

Iranians are often different, in a positive way. Their government's anti-Israel hatred has more to do with sweeping their own problems under the rug through enemy projection, and also virtue signalling to other Muslim countries to paper over the isolation stemming from the Iran's particular Islam flavour.

From a cultural point of view, the Iran is the closest to Israel in the whole area - which is also why, given the PhD positions, you are much more likely to meet Iranians than other nationalities.

The country Coworkers came from is pretty unimportant for me.
The Israeli gouvernment is another question that i would decline projects that have an relation with it.

@stop I would also decline projects with the Israeli government :)

@stop @NickyBones i wouldnt dismiss projects from the israeli goverment, especially if its a tool that benefits all the citizens of Israel, many of which are Muslim and Christians.

@NickyBones , as an israeli that worked with many different people from around the middle east, people are usually professional and just want to do their job. What you should worry about are the activists candidates, and that has nothing to do with being an israeli or the origin of the candidate.

I sure as shit hope not. That sort of behavior is way too unprofessional. And we are in 2021 ffs, such petty feuds should be a thing of the past.

@Fast-Nop Am Iranian. Can confirm. Although there are people who agree with the government, a wide majority don't, or at least don't care about someone's nationality. Working for another government could be different though. I personally don't care.

@bioDan destroyed wheelchairs(2010) and over 8000 disabled people(many of them lost their legs, because sharpshooters destroyed their knees on purpose)(2020). The illegal occupation of palestinian land doesnt make it better.

Israel , top county in the world.
In world War z was the only country ready for the zombies Atack.
In covid they are the first county to be vaccinated.
The government says jump, Israelis say how high..
Most coordenated people... As an European I wish we had half their union...
Also... Jewish God is the same as Catholic and Muslim...
Hate is on specific people... This is the future, let's love the next.

@stop destroyed wheelchairs? What do you mean? Sharpshooters shooting on legs? Oh for illegal protesters advancing when they're asked to stop advancing?

There is a lot nuance, interests, and lies around the whole narrative. Reducing it to a narrative of opressors vs opressed from one side, or terrorists vs civilians from the other, doesn't do justice to the conflict. Much more nuance is required due to the complexity of the matter

@GyroGearloose i agree with the last part, but not for the first. There is unity about the concept of Israel as a nation state but also an array of views regarding the government and the current administration. Most people dont follow blindly the government actions, but there is a solid rrust between the people and the government

@bioDan 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... (read the complete article)
2020: https://israeljari.blogspot.com/202...

@stop i know people who boarded that ship, the ship was asked to stop for inspection. It didnt, soldiers were lowered down from a helicopter to do an inspection of the ship to see that there are no weapons onboard. The minute they were lowered people onboard attacked the soldiers with knives and bats. There is a video of this insidence.

About the second one, the narrative is clear, but no nuance is offered.
Soldiers have strict open fire rules, which breaking them result in shame and jail time. I'm sure each one of the 42 "demonstrators" were alerted at least twice before the snipers open fire.

The open fire rules go something like:
1. Shout "Stop"
2. Shout "Stop or i will shoot"
3. Shoot to the air to show you are serious.
4. Shoot to the legs to prevent enemy advancement.
5. If there is still a threat to the soldier/civilian lives - shoot to kill.

Folks, I don't think this thread was meant to discuss Israel's politics.

Based on the replies I would draw the conclusion that you should just avoid the topic of nationality or politics and you'll be fine.

@bioDan I don't follow the news but last time I checked Israel prescribed the number of cows allowed in Gaza, while publicly denying that they would be restricting anything but weapons and individuals (which is the only kind of restriction allowed on a city by the Geneva convention)

@homo-lorens oh, thats the first time i hear about it, can you provide sources?

I wonder what's the story behind that one

@homo-lorens Maybe they are worried about CO2 emission of cow farts? This is the stupidest thing ever, but I wouldn't be surprised it actually is true.

where's the issue?
if you dont tell em they wont know.

or you intend to rub in their faces that you think of yourself as being part of the "chosen nation", or refuse to commit on sabbath... but then nobody is going to like you regardless of their origin.

@bioDan I have serious issues with the policies of the Israeli government. While I will happily participate in private and volunteer projects that would benefit local communities, I don't want anything to do with the authorities.

@hanieh-m Thanks for the input!
Can you name a few good universities in Iran? (for CS and robotics)
So we can narrow down which candidates to invite for interviews...

@bad-frog Why should I hide my identity?
How saying where I spent my adolescence years or where I did my B.Sc, or where I worked, is "rubbing it in someone's face?"
Where did I say I give two shits about Shabat?

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Iranians who move outside the country for work are also ones that are not too happy with their government. It might be a major factor in the decision to move away. This probably doesn't apply to all of them, though.

@electrineer I have the same hope...

@bioDan Apparently the food blockade has been lifted for a while now, the whole topic was relevant 2007-2012 and since Israel didn't have an official list back then most evidence is indirect and very unreliable. Since then they have lightened restrictions and now the only banned items are materials that could be used for war. Here's the Wikipedia article, but it isn't very useful. The sources are better, but keep in mind that Gisha is a partial organization who may be motivated to paint the situation worse than it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

@electrineer Our government and the general population (hungary) are xenophobic and terribly racist towards gypsies, yet nearly all diaspora I've met is also xenophobic and racist.

@bad-frog Come on - "and where are you from?" is one of the questions people ask when they get familiar with each other.

Not least because this also helps understanding each other, in particular with possibly different sets of cultural norms as background because the same words may mean different things. For example, a German "yes" is quite different from an Indian "yes".

@Fast-Nop The "Ja, aber..." vs. "Genau" 😂😂

@NickyBones how is saying where you worked being an asshole?
acting smug because of religious bullshit is. which i dont accuse you of, but warn against.

as for your past, are you exhibitionnist? does everyone need to know your background? is it really hiding your past?

i, for myself, have a criminal history. do i hide it? no. sometimes the subject comes up, because of a number of reasons, mainly because of my peculiar skillset.

but conversely, i dont start a conversation by telling everyone ive been nr2 in a criminal organisation. i dont really avoid the subject, but talking about oneself is bad manners so in interactions with people i dont talk about my past if not asked directly about it.

as for why it sucks to be an israeli, its the same reason why it sucks to be white in 2021. people are retarded, is all. unless youre ready to dispense some serious remedial beatings to approx 50% of humans, you aint gonna change that.

@bioDan Seeing as this is all I could find, it is likely that the original article where I read the cow thing was retracted because of criticism, I couldn't find it on Google.

@NickyBones Or the Japanese "yes" which may in fact just mean "yes, I've heard what you said". Or the Japanese "it's difficult" which can mean "it's impossible" - whereas a German "it's difficult" means "it's expensive".

@bad-frog I don't think it sucks to be Israeli, or that it's something shameful.
Where you are from and where you studied is one of the first questions in any academic interaction I ever had.
It's impossible to hide your origin from a person who can just check out your LinkedIn and see where you are from, let alone a lab mate who you will spent the next 4 years working with.

@Fast-Nop might be, although people assume im local to my present country, so they ask only when they see i dont react as locals do (usually in stressfull situations).

in my case at least, people not knowing where im from amounts to me not launching the subject.
it doesnt occur to me as an issue...

@NickyBones Not sure about robotics because a lot of universities don't have a robotics major around here. The closest major would probably be either Electrical Engineering or Computer Engineering. But in general Sharif University of Technology, University of Tehran and Amirkabir University of Technology are considered the top three universities in Iran, so you couldn't go wrong with either of them. SUT and AUT in particular only offer STEM fields and SUT is considered the MIT of Iran (I might be a bit biased, I did graduate from SUT after all 😁). Honorable mentions: Shahid Beheshti University, Shiraz University, University of Isfahan and Ferdowsi University of Mashhad.

@NickyBones
whoops. didnt think about linkedin. but checking your coworkers digital footprint sure is creepy.

well i dont think any origin should be shameful. you are not responsible for for the sins of your kin, only yours.

as for whether it sucks or not to be from israel, its up to the wording you choose. because you are thinking about negative repercussions of that, after all.

as for the academic background, ive been to places and have seen people, but i have to admit of all these the academic milieu is where i spent the least time (also because im a high school dropout:p)

@hanieh-m There is a woman from Iran on the list, with plenty of work experience as control engineer. Most others are fresh out of their masters, so she gets extra points in my book.
She did her master in K. N. Toosi University of Technology. Is it a known institute?

@NickyBones Yes, it is. Probably in the top 15 I think.

@homo-lorens or retracted due to it being fake news/wrong.
In any case, i appreciate your effort and integrity

@NickyBones Remembering what I had in control theory in EE, that plus work experience should be pretty awesome for the moving parts of robotics.

@bioDan Well, the extensive food blockade is definitely not fake because every source refers to it. The exact detail about cows probably is.

@bioDan I don't want to check official israeli reports on a topic that probably warranted weekly or more frequent reporting, for a span of 5 years, so let's say they did not deny the food blockade publicly unless someone else is willing to read up on what is easily in excess of three days' material.

@homo-lorens welp seems google struck again.
but thats small fry.
here: thats more juicy

https://huffpost.com/entry/...

wp* on palestinian civvies when its a war crime to use it against soldiers. but what can one person do about its government?
bc, in absolute, if you want crunchy look into the real reason why you had gulf 2 : the return and why gaddafi ended up with an ak up his a.

compared to this, and several others, even 2011 is small fry.

*white phosphorous is forbidden by geneva because its an incendiary that burns with moisture. it means if you get hit with shrapnel it continues to burn inside your body.
could go more graphic, but its not a medical forum from what i gather

@homo-lorens absolutely, the blockade is due to the thousands of rockets that were sent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Bottom line is that its a complex situation that demands nuance, and we hijacked this post enough.

@bioDan I am aware of the context, but the Geneva Conventions don't care about context. The whole point of the conventions is that under no condition should an army do the specified things to other armies or civilians. Especially civilians. If the conventions are broken by one party, opponents must still act within their bounds unless forced (not in the diplomatic but in the logical sense) otherwise.

@homo-lorens fren, the rabbithole goes deep, but thats a discussion more suitable for /pol/ than devrant;)

@homo-lorens was there a sentence with a jury and a judge about breaking the Geneva conventions? There were only accusations from what i know, and votes by intersted parties. But no court of law/justice was assembled to my knowledge. At least not one recognized by both parties to mediate.

@bioDan @homo-lorens Can you channel all that research energy to finding me a good girl candidate for the lab? Our ratio is 1:16 :(

@bad-frog if someone wants to know what white phosporus can do he only needs to search "amber north sea".

@NickyBones Iranian girls with relevant background are a good starter. That's because the usual gender related job preference is overshadowed by economic constraints.

In other words, they cannot freely choose girly stuff like in the Western world because they have to make a living. Computer stuff qualifies because it's well paid and doesn't require physical strength - "only" having the brains.

Not that Iranian guys would be bad, either, but the young ones tend to need a firm hand and strict guidance by father or uncle, or else they lose out on discipline.

@hanieh-m Your take on the latter? ^^

@stop ??
you mean this?
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/...

@bad-frog nope. Real amber doesnt exist in the north sea.
Its always white phosphorus from bombs that where dropped in WW2 https://strangesounds.org/2019/06/...

@Fast-Nop Not sure about Iranian guys needing discipline or not. But when it comes to choosing majors/jobs, there is a level of masculinity/feminity associated with it which is more pronounced here than Western countries and people are mostly pressured into choosing a job that is aligned with their gender. The ratio of women to men in my university is something around 1:3 I think and it becomes as low as 1:5 when it comes to cs/ce/ee. There are software companies around here that quite openly don't hire women (to these companies I would like to say that do you guys code with your dicks? And that's why you can't hire women? I code with my head and type with my fingers and I think I'm pretty competent).
So I would say that if a girl in Iran has chosen to work in cs, she probably is passionate enough to to have overcome the social pressure around choosing a job that is considered somewhat masculine.

@Fast-Nop In other words, she probably has a strong motivation and family and friends nagging to her to choose something feminine did not make her change her mind.
I do agree that money is a factor too but since women aren't considered the main bread winners, that actually does give them some level of freedom. Their job isn't considered as important as their husband's. I would like to add that this is mostly the mainstream/older generations' beliefs and the younger generations are more open-minded.

@NickyBones If you can give me some specifications or requirements, maybe I could hook you up with someone? Preferably a girl candidate?

@Fast-Nop I actually think that the state in Iran, and some of gulf countries were girls are half of the STEM students, show that choosing engineering for any gender is mostly a decision led by financial and social constraints, and not gender preferences.
Men in the west are under a lot of pressure to make a good, stable living and have a high-status job, while the women are not, causing this gap that is usually attributed to gender.
Countries like Sweden managed to give women the choice to be whatever they wanted to be, with their very supporting social/welfare system, but not men. The idea that a guy in a bad or "girly" job has less worth is still too global for Sweden to erase it.
And yes, I agree that Iranian girls are a good start :)

@hanieh-m We need someone with a master degree who can write decent code in c++ and python, has some background in robotics and some knowledge of computer vision.
That person doesn't have to an expert in these fields, just a few uni courses and a lot of motivation is fine.
I personally will prefer if we find a strong girl because I am a bit tired of the sausage fest in the office.
But we decide on the basis of technical level and how they will fit socially in the group. We rejected one girl a few weeks ago because she was too weak technically....

@stop wouldnt be so sure about that

https://thoughtco.com/baltic-amber-...

I think I am biased because I am myself Israeli, but if I wouldn’t’ve been an Israeli, I wouldn’t have a problem working with one, if they’re muslim, christian, jewish, atheist, whatever. I don’t discriminate :D