The frequency in which I see women-hating comments in certain tech FB groups is alarmingly high lately. Even posts about ordering food are somehow twisted into really awful discussions (raping women, locking them at home, stoning cheating wives...).
Maybe I'm just a sensitive "female", but I honestly wouldn't want to work with a person who has this mindset.

Does FB still exist? You mean Facebook, right?

@electrineer Yeah, us old people are still there :)

Most tech FB groups in my experience are cancer. That's not you being sensitive, it's them being miserable oxygen wasters.

I don't think you're overly sensitive on this. To be honest I sense there's somewhat of a gender war among men and women for a couple years now. We were led to believe that we are two separate groups of people that are fighting about some made up king of the hill spot...

It feels to me like the amonisity from the side of women was artificially escalated, probably by the hands of the whole "incel" retardation and that caused a bit of a self-defense chain reaction of men hating women, women hating men more, men hating women even more and so on and so on...

It really seems like its reaching meme status now where every man is a rapist and every woman is a whore... Literally twitter levels of intrigue...

If I were to guess, the normie world is still just catching up to the internet and they can't handle it still.

Im a huge proponent of free speech, but I also dreams of a world where people are smart enough to see that we are all just humans, iregardless of race, sex or whatever...

Never seen anything remotely close to what you describe in the last 2 decades of so. I'm to old for Facebook but do you have an example video?

@Hazarth I agree - I saw some anti-men videos on YouTube, but none of this shit in the women/girls groups I am in on FB. We normally discuss things like how to negotiate a raise, motherhood and career, helping junior devs with stuff, sharing job openings, etc. We throw shit only on a specific man, if a women shares a harassment story or such.
If I am being very honest, I definitely don't hate men, but as time goes by I became more afraid of them. I guess it's bad personal experience IRL, and constant exposure to violent language online. This Incel thing started leaking into real life and that's scary.

@hjk101 I have screenshots of what I saw today, on FB in a respectable tech group, that shocked me, but it's in Hebrew....
But for general hate speech of this sort you can google Incels, and unfortunately also in some MGTOW and MRA Subreddits. If you want the "best of" collections you can search r/inceltears videos on YouTube.

You are on Facebook. Nuff said

@NickyBones You can usually find what you're looking for on the internet. I heard enough anti-men rhethoric on the internet and to be honest also become kind of... I wouldn't say afraid of women? But fearful that what I might say in good faith, would sound bad or creepy and at best cost me a relationship or at worst actually cause problems at life/work. I was lucky enough to find an incredible girl and saw that I was worried about nothing.

The Internet has this strange power to absolutely warp ones view on things and the information overload and constant barrage of attacks from online warriors on either side just forces people into a feedback loop of fight or flight responses. Or at least that's what it looks like to me.

I don't even blame individuals at this point, I blame the entire global internet culture for this. Something is wrong and it's spinning out of control to the point it actually affects masses of people mentally in a bad way...

@Hazarth I haven't seen men-hating posts in normal women groups, where women are usually very free with what they share. I don't doubt there are some bitter witches out there planning the downfall of men, but I haven't seen it poison the mainstream forums of girl devs. Which is a relief, because this is toxic as fuck even if it's not directed to me.

I understand the fear of men that women can ruin their reputations and careers by falsely accusing them of something, or spinning a minor comment out of context. It can certainly happen in the current climate, and even I'm careful about what I say and to whom.

My fears are of physical threats. I don't stand a chance even against small men with my physique so yeah....I far more scared of being assaulted than from some jerk making a rumor that I'm a whore.

@iiii Well, I'm old. Is there something better?

@NickyBones I'm sure I don't have to tell you this, but get a pepper spray if you don't have one already.

but yeah, I understand that. I have heard stories from my friends who were... maybe not directly attacked but at the very least felt actually threatened by some (not always drunk) men... pepper spray was useful in some of those cases, in others it ended well by other means... No one I now was actually physically hurt.

Luckily its rare but even the fact that I personally know more than 0 women that were in that situation makes me both disappointed and angry... -_-

@Hazarth Yeah, pepper spray is borderline where I live. You are only allowed to carry animal-repelling pepper spray and not the people's one. I am not sure what is the difference, but it would be hard to explain why I am carrying anti-bear spray in the middle of an European city.
When people asked the authorities what can they do to defend themselves, the answer was "travel in groups". Thanks, very helpful if I was a pup in a wolf pack.

@NickyBones I don't think so. Social networks aren't a good thing overall.

I'm not that young and a sceptic. Not someone good to ask advice.

@NickyBones Germany?

@NickyBones Pepper spray is officially legal only against animals because it is not approved for defence against humans - the reason being that this would have required medical studies, which in turn would have needed animal experiments, and that would have conflicted with animal protection legislation. But if you are in a self-defence situation, you can take whatever is needed. Sticks aren't "approved" for use on humans either, after all.

we shouldn' t have let women become engineers...

@NickyBones And btw., the most effective defence is not being there when the shit hits the fan. Sounds like buzzwords, but there is strategy to danger management. Violence usually doesn't happen out of the blue, it's a process.

If you model it on a scale of 0 to 10 where 0 is sleeping peacefully and 10 is being beaten up or worse, most people start noticing only at 8 or 9. The idea is kicking in your defences at 4 or 5 already in terms of general prevention, and taking active measures latest at 6 or 7.

Remember that even for a man, facing off a group of men is a lost cause.

Plot twist: The same men calling upon violence on women are your fellow vocal feminist/progressive male engineers. :^)

@Hazarth This is how the elites wage war. They fund both sides of the conflicts with ammunition and let us destroy each other. They even put boast this in movies:

"I've hired you to help me start a war. It's an prestigious line of work, with a long and glorious tradition."

Race wars, sex wars, kinetic wars, etc. Its all about getting the Goyim to kill each other. I have heard "religious" leaders talk about this as if it is positive. (Disclaimer: I am not anti Jew. I think the people behind this don't worship God or don't espouse wholesome philosophies. I think they worship Satan and pretend to be Jewish.)

Basically there are really fucked up people who do even more fucked up things for power and control.

I also think you are not being overly sensitive. You are being sensitive, but in the way we should all be sensitive about it, the good way.

Things like these make me really dislike most online groups. I won't bother with the tired old "whAt iS faCeBooK?" dumbass joke that has been posted over and over. It exists, it is full of shitbags, recognizing this is essential to knowing where not to go.

Stoning? Was this in some caliphate's group?

maybe you should leave muslim IT groups.

Another interesting reason why pepper spray is officially only against animals was intentionally creating a legal loophole.

If something is designed (not merely suited, like a hammer) to harm humans, then it is a weapon. Not all weapons require a licence (e.g. swords don't), but they are legal only for adults.

Labelling pepper spray for use only against animals removes the design to harm humans (which is why the "don't use against humans" sticker must be on the can), and that makes pepperspray legal for a very important target group: underage girls.

So officially, they have the pepperspray against aggressive dogs, but in self-defence against a human, they will just luckily happen to have had it at hand.

@Hazarth Yes :)

@ars1 @Midnight-shcode It was actually an Israeli tech group, not a Muslim one. The "democratic pearl of the Middle East" :)
The stoning of cheating wives was a reaction to what is currently happening in Afghanistan - people made comments that they wish such "sanctions" would also be inflicted on women in the West. They said that once women are locked in their homes again, it solves the problem of "false sexual harassment".

@Fast-Nop I am not even talking about fighting off a group. I probably can't fight off a 15 year old horny teenager. And even if you start to notice trouble, there is not always a way out of trouble. I am on the metro at night, a rowdy group comes in, I am stuck in the same compartments with them. Getting down in the next stop is not always safer - because they can follow me or I just end up in a bad neighborhood.
I had situations like that in different types of public transportation, sometimes at broad day light - I wasn't raped, but I was groped and intimidated and verbally harassed. And the worst thing is - people stood by and did nothing. So while the group of men that actively attacks women might be small, the people that stand by and participate passively is large.

@Fast-Nop I think some of it boils down to the "justice" system and the police. If a man defended me against these assholes, he might end up being questioned in the police for assaulting them and possibly prosecuted. If these assholes assaulted me, they would get like 1 month community service, at best. Something is very wrong with the way justice is working in the West.

@NickyBones Correct, this is one of the reasons. If outnumbered against a group, even as man, my only strategy for winning a violent altercation is attacking them with no warning, ideally from behind, and with maximum brutality. There is no way that a judge would give me a pass on that.

Just "speaking up" wouldn't achieve anything, rob me of the surprise factor, and make myself a target.

The second reason is that it isn't always clear whether you are with them. If so, you would team up with them in court, making my case even worse.

That's particularly the case if it's a violent relationship where the woman will stand in for her abuser, or else she wouldn't be with him anyway. I would just keep out.

The third reason is that it is bad if they harass you, but from my point of view, myself being beaten up (or convicted) would be worse. Given that I have nothing to win here, I have no incentive to incur that risk for you as random stranger. Just like you wouldn't bail me out, either.

@Fast-Nop If someone defended me in a situation like that, he'd get the best lawyer my family can pay for - I'd definitely wouldn't abandon someone who helped me.
It was very clear that I was not familiar with the people that harassed me. People just developed a very high level of apathy to the suffering of others.
It even happened to me in the work environment, where no one risk getting stabbed if they told the men that harassed me to fuck off. Some of the observers were executive level, and they just looked the other way. So either they think treating women like this is fine, or they are trash like the guys who abused me.

@Fast-Nop Just to make it clear - a lot of the higher ups who knew were women. And they also did nothing. If anything, they helped cover it up.

@NickyBones I don't trust the legal system, not even with a superb lawyer. Also, I would not assume that you as (defended) stranger would do that because your best bet would be running away so that you'd be safe even if I lose.

At work, that sucks. Though I would leave it to you to escalate that because if even you as main concerned person aren't motivated enough, I'd be even less so.

However, I would take notice of these execs' behaviour and assume that they are scumbags, which would surely make me careful when dealing with them.

@Fast-Nop Yeah, I understand your concern about the legal system. I was advised to not sue the ones that hurt me...
I personally escalated it, as far as one of the VPs (and I'm talking about Intel here, not some small startup). They seemed very sympathetic, but in practice nothing was done. The HR was more worried about me exposing them on SM, then what actually happened to me. Typical.
People say things have changed and some behaviors are no longer tolerated - it's a lie. Top leaders of #TimesUp were aiding the silencing of SH victims. My harassment was covered by #MeToo-preaching HR. The only time a sexual harassment complaint leads to an action is when someone powerful actually wants to get rid of the aggressor anyway, so it's a win-win. But if you are no one, and your abusive boss is not threatening management, you will be ignored at best, and often - fired.

@NickyBones I see some structural problems here.

1) False allegations have long been weaponised. That's rampant. Unless you have evidence to back up your claims, dismissing them is the reasonable option. Evidence could be teaming up with others, stealthy recording, access to surveillance cameras (police can get a warrant).

2) Bosses are never team players because you need to use your elbows to get ahead of others who are also vying for a boss post. That tells what kind of behaviour you can expect from people who prevailed in such a selective process.

3) The higher up, the more sociopathy is actually a hard job requirement. Like firing people regardless of them becoming homeless or so.

4) Leveraging existing company rift lines is actually the most promising approach. It's risky, but getting your opponent into crossfire is a valid strategy.

@Fast-Nop You want evidence for what? That sexual harassment is only treated when there is a stronger, global interest?
That's steams for the data - Most sexual harassment/assault/rapes don't even make it to a trial. When the victim is willing to come forward and testify (which is not common), the cases are usually dismissed. At least in Israel. That's for us normal people.
But when a political party wants to "assassinate" another politician, suddenly actions are taken. And usually people get away with behavior like this for years. But it's only "discovered" when the timing is appropriate (e.g. elections). This goes also for celebrities, athletes, etc. Some powers decide they need to go down, and then suddenly "oh they're racist/misogynistic! What a surprise!". Yeah, what a surprise....

@Fast-Nop Bosses can be "team players" in the sense that they don't threatened their superiors. In my case it was a "bro" relationship, that the managers moved up, pulling my dirtbag boss up with them.

@Fast-Nop I got consulting from a lawyer on this case. She told me that they will overpower me with their legal team, and make sure I'll never work in that country by blacklisting me. She saw cases like that, and it's hopeless.
You only get justice if you have some powerful people behind you - and they usually don't support you out of the kindness of their hearts, but because it benefits them.

On the subject of harassment in public transit, it's sad that the threshold for taking action as a bystander is so high. To make the threshold lower, it's simplest to contact the driver. That's usually safe for the bystander. On trains you can often call the driver by pushing a button on the wall. You should always do that first even if you feel safe taking other actions.

It's also easier to take action if the victim asks for help. But it shouldn't be a requirement. It's understandable that the victim might be too scared or shocked to ask for help.

I don't remember any time I should've taken action to help someone, but maybe I've forgotten or just didn't realise I should've done something. It's too easy to sit and do nothing.

The one time I remember harassment in public transit is when I stepped in a train at night and a young guy walked towards me and started pushing me with his fists without saying a word. I grabbed his fist and pushed it back.

Luckily, he stopped and walked directly out the door. Had he gone any further, I would've needed to counter attack. I don't think it would've ended well for him.

In retrospect, I probably should've informed the security about what had happened so he won't do the same for someone in worse position than I am.

@NickyBones Evidence that the case actually happened - and no, it's not that I personally want that because why would I. It's that whoever has to decide about that case in whatever role (corporate manager, legal judge) needs evidence.

Otherwise, it's just your word to them - and you could be lying as well as your opponent. "Innocent until proven guilty" is not invalidated by tears of a woman.

Tons of cases get dismissed because they are actually false allegations, and unfortunately, most of that only is dismissed instead of getting these false allegators convicted themselves. The fallout is that real victims face less credibility unless there is actual evidence to back up their claims.

And yes, your lawyer is probably right - if you can't present such evidence, it's risky for other employers to hire you because they cannot decide which camp you are in - real or false victim. In particular if you go over social media.

@electrineer A co-worker of a family member was actually convicted. He and two friends witnessed a rape attempt in a park with the woman already dragged to the ground by two attackers. They stepped in and beat them up before they could start the actual rape. The criminals got what they deserved. Good ending?

Not so fast. The judge ruled that while it was self-defence, their use of force was excessive. They had to pay a hefty fine, their police record got tainted which rules them out for any job with background check, and then civil damages to the criminals on top of that.

That wouldn't have happened if they had not stepped in, had kept a safe distance, and only alerted the police. Obviously, the rape would have happened by the time police would have arrived, but that's the takeaway message from the legal system.

Another factor is a correlation between folks from cultures that regard women as free game and those where knife usage is normal, making it risky to even draw attention.

@Fast-Nop I guess the moral of the story is that you shouldn't get in an even fight where you need to harm each other. You need enough of an upper edge that you scare them away or can hold them in place until the police comes.

Otherwise, you should only go as far as is needed for distraction to let all parties flee, but that is dangerous.

@Fast-Nop I really doubt there are "tons" for false allegations. Just because it's so hopeless to complain even if you do have a case. I believe false complaints are 2-3% of all complaints, and a lot of crimes just happen without anyone reporting them so....
I have evidence - from emails, text, call recordings, and people who witness this person abuse me. I have messages I wrote in real time telling my friends (at work) what happened, and they corroborate the other evidence. My dad was a police officer so I was prepared.
I escalated it in the company first, and went on social media only when talking to the VP resulted in nothing (my abusive boss was actually promoted). I also didn't mention names.
Overpowering in court has little to do with evidence and more to do with resources. Their legal team would have used exhaustion tactics that would cause my legal bills to increase and I couldn't afford it.

@Fast-Nop The assumptions you made about me, why my lawyer advised me to drop it, and what you wrote about the companies being right to shun me - it's exactly the reason people don't complain about harassment. You just can't win.

@electrineer My cousin was beaten and robbed in the metro in Belgium. He was right next to the driver's box and yelled for him. Help did not come. The driver didn't want to get beaten as well I guess...

@NickyBones they should alert the security to step in on the next station if there's none on the train already

@electrineer Honestly I don't remember seeing security in the metro at all. Only after the terror attacks started there were guards....

@Fast-Nop That person abused me for 6 months - yelling at me publicly, accusing me of sleeping with colleagues, saying I was conspiring against him...He got jealous if I went to lunch with another team!
I didn't complain to the HR about that - but my environment witnessed it. Then he tried to touch me inappropriately and I screamed at him and hit his hand. I still didn't complain. But I guess he realized he crossed a line, and needs to get rid of me because 3 weeks later I was told I was fired.
That boss filed a report with testimonies saying I was crap at my work. But guess what, he fabricated everything - people came to the CEO to tell him they were never asked about my performance, and they have a good opinion on me. So that asshole faked everything, and still stayed in his job and they decided there was no misconduct. I started fighting him only when he tried to falsely accuse me of being a terrible employee....

@NickyBones It's considerably more false accusations than you'd think, but nobody talks about that because male victims have no lobby. Being a victim as man carries a stigma in itself already.

Btw., messages you wrote yourself are not evidence at all. Call recordings are if the abuser is caught on them, and witnesses are as well if they have directly observed the incidents, i.e. not just that you told them.

Next, I didn't make assumptions about you. I wrote why in absence of evidence, not hiring you would be the logical decision for the next company. It's not about you because you don't matter to them. It's about them gauging their own risk of getting a loose cannon (instead of an actual victim) on board and playing it safe.

@Fast-Nop Out of the number of crimes that happen, the number of false allegations is negligible. As most people don't even complain, they are not entered into the false/true statistics. Messages you wrote yourself, and are authenticated, are admissible in court. Just look at the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard case to see how it was used (by both sides). It may not be compelling on its own, but if they are coherent with the story and you have additional evidence of these events or others - these messages certainly carry weight.
And you did make assumptions about me, but this is draining for me and I prefer to stop it here.

...or you could stop fetishing in muslim IT groups, you know, and instead go to some groups containing civilised people as opposed to retarded goat herders who don't have enough IQ for enough limb coordination to do a single fucking jumping jack right, you know?

@Midnight-shcode Did you even read the comments? It's not a Muslim group. It's an Israeli group - people are mostly secular, or moderately Jewish.
You could stop blaming me for things I haven't even done - that's part of the same toxic shit I see online recently.
I served in a war against our Muslim neighbors, and still I think your comments are horrid. You certainly sound "civilized"...
Keep pretending that child-raping was not part of Christianity as well.
https://nbcnews.com/news/world/...

Haven't really seen anything like this but wait you use facebook?

@LotsOfCaffeine Yupp :)

Every social interaction on Facebook other than keeping contact with people you know from real life and have no other way of communicating with is complete and total cancer.

Seriously.

I read newspaper articles there from time to time. Just go into the comment section of ANY article. There is a shitshow happening. Every. Single. Time.

E.g. people defending the Chinese government for limiting gaming time for youths to three hours a week, because "parents should do that, but since they don't, the government did this". And this is a mild one.

As a general rule I found people with an IQ above the level of a potato do not regularly (if at all) comment on anything public on Facebook. Every single person who comments seems to be some racist dipshit who sits on the couch all day and complains about the rich and immigrants.

Yesterday I saw an article about the slit experiment and the consequence of observation. A question from the comments was, "but what about blind people". I don't even.

@Maer But seriously, what about blind people? 🙃