Join devRant
Do all the things like
++ or -- rants, post your own rants, comment on others' rants and build your customized dev avatar
Sign Up
Pipeless API
From the creators of devRant, Pipeless lets you power real-time personalized recommendations and activity feeds using a simple API
Learn More
Search - "actual frameworks"
-
Time for an actual rant:
During an internship I heard from my PM that my assignment for the week after was going to be working on a specific sql query to add some features and fix some bugs.
When talking with colleagues about that assignment later, they laughed and referred to the query as the "query of doom" (QoD), naive as I was back then, I thought that one of my colleagues had the QoD displayed on his screen because the query he was working on looked rather large (about 20 lines). They all laughed and told me I was in for a treat.
Starting my assignment the week after I was horrified to find out the QoD was huge, and by huge I mean, printing that specific query resulted in 8 A4 pages font size 10, front and back.
There were over a 100 union statements, no proper aliases, no documentation, not a single foreign key in the entire database, naming that makes no sense. And everything written manually by 10 different developers over the past years, who all fell of the face of the earth.
And this was only the query of doom. The entire product was a complete clusterfuck of forms with a queries directly behind action buttons, because we weren't allowed to make classes (yes you read that correctly. We couldn't make classes, unless we had a very compelling reason). Everything was created by over 30 different devs who only managed to stay just long enough to get some work done.
And all of this was the result of a PM who didn't believe in frameworks, ORM's, OOP, classes, ... because that made the software slow. To this day he still manages that product, but I'm glad that I quickly decided to move on.9 -
They asked me if I could recommend any video streaming frameworks. I said no, but I could google around a little. I found one, sent it to them with a note that I hadn't used it but it seemed solid.
One afternoon, right before hometime, a month later and the day before go-live, I come in, to emails with _all_ the managers on it, demanding that I assist immediately. They'd finally tried testing it, and they had found an issue. No details.
I email back, asking for the actual issue they'd found - no response. I phone - that developer has now gone on leave for week, there's a new dev who'll help me. I email him, asking for "precise technical details" of what had gone wrong.
He replies, "when you try use it, it literally causes the apocalypse." and goes silent. I check the skies, no visible apocalypse yet.
Based on some keywords they'd mentioned, I google and find a known issue as well as a patch for their version. I email it over to them.
The response? "If I'd known he was just going to Google it, I would have tried that myself."15 -
Forget about Internet explorer compatibility, EMAIL TEMPLATES are the actual worst. Outlook uses the same html rendering engine as MS WORD. It's sooo painful. All the bad practices you had to do 15 years ago, you have to do when you write email templates.
YOU WILL NOT KNOW PAIN until you have to make an email template, that works in Gmail, Yahoo Mail, OUTLOOK, outlook.com, outlook for mac, MOBILE, Android, the gmail app, IOS, apple mail, and so on. And after you make an unholy abomination of table garbage, then having to make it responsive/mobile friendly after all that!
If something is broken in one client, fixing it will break something in a different client! And then having to take a stab in the dark to try to fix it and then sending yet another test email (which costs $ per test)
I must have slashed decades off my life having to build email templates. It really is horrendous. There are frameworks like Zurb for email that at least let you feel like you're using a modern workflow. But things break just as often.
Honestly if you have the option, use a wysiwyg editor for building emails. At least when it does break (and they all will) you can at least blame the software.
Which is better than spending 4 hours on why that table cell doesn't line up correctly in outlook.7 -
Is it just me who sees this? JS development in a somewhat more complex setting (like vue-storefront) is just a horrible mess.
I have 10+ experience in java, c# and python, and I've never needed more than a a few hours to get into a new codebase, understanding the overall system, being able to guess where to fix a given problem.
But with JS (and also TS for that matter) I'm at my limits. Most of the files look like they don't do anything. There seems to be no structure, both from a file system point of view, nor from a code point of view.
It start with little things like 300 char long lines including various lambdas, closures and ifs with useless variables names, over overly generic and minified method/function names to inconsistent naming of files, classes and basically everything else.
I used to just set a breakpoint somewhere in my code (or in a compiled dependency) wait this it is being hit and go back and forth to learn how the system state changes.
This seems to be highly limited in JS. I didn't find the one way to just being able to debug, everything that is. There are weird things like transpilers, compiler, minifiers, bablers and what not else. There is an error? Go f... yourself ...
And what do I find as the number one tipp all across the internet? Console.log?? are you kidding me, sure just tell me, your kidding me right?
If I would have to describe the JS world in one word, I would use "inconsistency". It's all just a pain in the ass.
I remember when I switcher from VisualStudio/C# to Eclipse/Java I felt like traveling back in time for about 10 years. Everyting seemd so ... old-schoolish, buggy, weird.
When I now switch from java to JS it makes me feel the same way. It's all so highly unproductive, inconsistent, undeterministic, cobbled together.
For one inconveinience the JS communinity seems to like to build huge shitloads of stuff around it, instead of fixing the obvious. And noone seems to see that.
It's like they are all blinded somehow. Currently I'm also trying to implement a small react app based on react-admin. The simplest things to develop and debug are a nightmare. There is so much boilerplate that to write that most people in the internet just keep copying stuff, without even trying to understand what it actually does.
I've always been a guy that tries to understand what the fuck this code actuall does. And for most of the parts I just thing, that the stuff there is useless or could be done in a way more readable way. But instead, all the devs out there just seem to chose the "copy and fix somehow-ish" way.
I'm all in for component-izing stuff. I like encapsulation, I'm a OOP guy by heart. But what react and similar frameworks do is just insane. It's just not right (for some part).
Especially when you have to remember so much stuff that is just mechanics/boilerplate without having any actual "business logical function".
People always say java is so verbose. I don't think it is, there is so few syntax that it almost reads like a prose story. When I look at JS and TS instead, I'm overwhelmed by all the syntax, almost wondering every second line, what the actual fuck this could mean. The boilerplate/logic ration seems way to off ..
So it really makes me wonder, if all you JS devs out there are just so used to that stuff, that you cannot imagine how it could be done better? I still remember my C# days, but I admin that I just got used to java. So I can somehow understand that all. But JS is just another few levels less deeper.
But maybe I'm just lazy and too old ...4 -
New webdev job ad in a small town where I live:
"We need a junior to mid level full-stack dev - Python, Flask, Django, ES6, Angular, TypeScript, Git, etc..."
ME:
"Fuck, I tick all the checkboxes! - And it's like the only Python job around here! Yey! I so want to work with Python" excited sends cv and an extremely well crafted cover letter.
Company calls after few days:
"Hi! So we'd like to invite you for interview. Some of the tech we work in: Shopify, Wix, and SquareSpace. We're also trying to get into some other frameworks and started looking at Magento and Wordpress.... It's not really much coding, mostly content management...."
What the actual fuck!?!
I still agreed to interview...3 -
I feel like the web frontend landscape has gone to hell...
It used to be a priority to develop lean front end applications that load fast and work the same on most devices. If resources are required you try to share them. I have always liked the way this was solved using CDN.
Proper workflow: include some small libs you might need, script your interactions, test site, deliver.
And now our friends of the Javascript community have discovered the nuclear science called npm... It started off as this great benefit allowing frontenders to complete entire projects in the language they know and love but I feel like it has grown into an abomination that produces bulky applications with more boilerplate configuration than actual active code...
Surely I can't be the only one who is completely fed up with the direction this is going? Is anyone else looking for a lean way of developing javascript again using only a couple of small libs instead of those monstrous frameworks.
I have even considered to develop a library that makes it easy to develop with CDN (and dependencies) in mind but I don't even know if it will be worth it as more and more people tend to move away from it.
I'm sad10 -
A discussion about writing tests for frontend applications.
Context: my frontend coworkers don't write tests, at all. Yeah, really. Our testing process is very manual. We test manually when developing. We test manually when reviewing code. After merging, the application is deployed to a staging server and the design team does a QA Sprint. Lots of manual testing and some bugs still crawl by.
So I decided to start pushing my coworkers to start writing tests. One of the reasons I constantly hear them say to not write tests in the frontend is: "It's not worth the time, because design keeps changing, which means we have to take time to fix the tests. Time that we usually don't have."
I've been thinking about this a lot and it seems to me that this is more related to bad tests than to tests in general.
Tests should not break with design changes (small changes at least). They should test funcionality, not how things look. A form should not break if the submit button's style changes, so why should its tests fail? I also think that tests help save time, as they prevent some back and forth because of bugs.
Writing good tests is the hard part. Tests that cover what's really important and aren't frail and break with things that shouldn't break them. What (and how) should we test? And what shouldn't be tested?
Writing them fast is another hard thing. Are you doing it right if they take more time to write than the actual code?
What do you think about this? Do you write tests for your frontend applications? What do you test? How much time do you spend writing tests? What are your testing tools/frameworks?6 -
Hmm. when you prove to be more knowledgable than the programmer that was pulled in, to interview you and he starts to go totally defensive and return spiteful responses
( like, what does a rookie like you know? i bet you never had an actual job )
when you calmly asks if any standard like PSR-2 is expected, if there are any preferred frameworks and what version control is used...
well, that went well..
Didn't get that internship..6 -
How the actual fuck are we expected to know this many languages / frameworks / libraries for a web dev interview? This shit is RIDICULOUS. No one can honestly say they're half proficient at any of this stuff if they have to know ALL of it. Is this the only way to get a job these days? This sucks balls!7
-
Kinda all other devs translate incompetent with a lack of knowledge
i would go with not able to recognize his lack of knowledge
Story 1:
once we had a developer, whom was given the task to try out a REST/Json API using Java
after a week he presented his solution,
2 Classes with actual code and a micro-framework for parsing and generating JSON
so i asked him, why he didn't use a framework like jackson or gson, while this presentation he felt pretty offended by this question
a couple of weeks later i met him and he was full of thanks for me, because i showed him, that there are frameworks like that, and even said sorry for feeling offended
- no incompentence here -
Story 2:
once i had a lead dev, who was so self-confident, he refactored (for no reason but refactoring itself) half the app and commited without trying to compile/run test
but not only once, but on a regular basis
as you may imagine, he broke the application multiple times and blamed the other devs
- incompentence warning-
Story 3:
once i had a dev, which wanted to stay up with the latest versions of his libraries
npm update && commit without trying to compile/testing multiple times
- incompentence warning-
Story 4:
once i had a cto
* thought email-marketing is cutting edge
* removed test-systems completely to reduce costs
* liked wordpress
* sets vm to sleep without letting anyone know
- i guess incompetent alert -2 -
Got contacted for a job "interview" by a company because they were looking for "people with my skill set". All my profiles say I am a fullstack web dev with experience in frontend js frameworks and js and php backend frameworks.
Come in to find the "interview" is an exam. Ok, fine. My brain could do with some exercise.
After the basic IQ type questions, I get the web dev exam.
It is 95% of the questions are about CSS and HTML basics.
WHAT. THE. ACTUAL. FUCK.7 -
I just love it when the management/project office make decisions regarding code language and frameworks and such... just ignore the devs with actual experience...4
-
Started porting one application written in php to:
Golang(and some libraries to make certain sht simpler like GORM and Gorilla amongst a couple of others, most shit is STD shit already built in)
Java Spring(I know it well, but wanted to try this particular app in it, lots of boilerplate although the coded is solid AF)
.NET Core API, which I separated in a series of modules for the domain interface, the persistence logic, the actual api etc, I really dig it. It has a basic React frontend in Typescript whereas the other 2 versions are using the standard Go html/template package and the Twig interface for Spring.
My favorite thus far is Golang. I find it extremely easy to extend, the language reads good enough for a retard like myself to make sense of it fairly easy, really easy to test and experiment with it, any idea I get for something to add(say users and stuff) took me less than 30 mins to figure out while reading the actual documentation, as in the base documentation or just the source code.
I know the language is retard proof, and I am highly enjoying this. Not to say that the other two are bad, not at all, been using C# and Java for years now, but I highly appreciate being able to concentrate on functionality rather than all the fucking architectural boilerplate needed to run basic shit in the other two frameworks. Thus far Golang has been a breath of fresh air the likes Clojure gives me, while not even being a profound or mind blowing language in terms of features(since other than the interface{} and goroutines i can't think of shit) and have not reached a scenario in which I am stuck or dying to have generics one bit for the overall business logic.
The app is growing like crazy in terms of code since the original php application was huge to begin with, but dear me this shit is as simple as it can get without being too technical. Might move it to production once all usability tests pass and force the rest of the staff to learn it. I have one lead dev that damn near refuses to touch anything other than php, and a very eager to try shit out content administrator that comes from a Java and C# background.
all I want to say is how much I love go haha4 -
So i'm visiting the JavaScript bubble every now and then when i'm writing on the userscript i develop to fix bugs in our ticketing system or fix some clients website they negelected. Every time i'm searching for answers to the weird problems that inevitably turn up i have to filter out all the threads that derail with the classic 'google jQuery basic arithmetic plugin' craziness to find an actual vanilla solution to my problem.
All the time i wonder why on earth people put up with this framework hell. This is part serious question and part rant but seriously, how did we come to this? With all that jQuery, React, Node, whatever stuff i'm kinda losing the overview over what's even todays standard. I always try to keep my code as vanilla as possible without using external libraries. But it seems the entire web development industry is heading the completly other way. I tried to look into a few frameworks but i never really see the appeal. Just now i looked up react native because the last 20 rants talked about it and immediately noped out because they fucking create a DOM in js, why the fuck would you do this?!
Worst thing about this framework shithole is that some frameworks are beeing pulled into the mix for very weird and unnecessary reasons. Best example is a charts library i recently used to visualize a database of temperatures that was completely written in native js but pulled jQuery in for the equivalent of window.addEventListener('load',function(stuff)) and i was furious. I rewrote the code and could throw out the jQuery dependency with no problem. What the fuck is wrong with people?
Alright since you made it here: I'm not trying to throw any of you under the bus for using frameworks. I just fail to understand why you would use these. To each their own and unless your site has the performance of the ticketing system i use at work that takes like 15 seconds to load one fucking page i won't complain at all. But pull in a framework just to do a task you can easily do in native js in remotely the same timeframe you are on my list.2 -
I feel like saying "I know C#" (or Java or other similar languages) to mean that you know it as a language as opposed to more of a framework is ridiculous. We should say what programming language level we know (high, mid, low...) since the difference between say C# and Java is pretty much the same as the difference between say WinForms and WPF. Depending on which two languages and which two frameworks you choose it can be a much bigger difference between the frameworks than the languages.
In a CV I'd like to say "I know x-level languages with experience in [actual programming language + frameworks]" instead of saying I know C# and then recruiters and HR people and such assume I don't know Java at all, but know MVC, WebForms and whatever else even though I might specialise in something else and would take me pretty much the same to get proficient in Java as it would take me to get proficient in that framework or something that's technically C#.
It just makes so much more sense to me. As a dev you're supposed to know the principles, the syntax should be secondary. A pointer is a pointer regardless of it's marked with a * or IntPtr or just a value in a register with no special marking that it's a pointer...
Can we, as devs, come up with something like this?2 -
How can Javascript, one of the MOST WIDELY used and MATURE languages with A MILLION CANCEROUS FRAMEWORKS, NOT have a basic collections class? Are data structures not important in Javascript?
I've been struggling all night trying to get Sets working - surprise, they're utterly useless in Javascript cause you can't define the set comparator.
I just lost it when I found out THERE ISN'T EVEN A QUEUE. WT-ACTUAL-F15 -
How is that there are so many JavaScript frameworks and fkn no actual way to learn. Tried vue js, this fucker doesn't work half the time, I'm under a no sleep mod tablet, thought it'd help me but I am just raging right now.7
-
A lot of this might be an assumption based on not enough research on both NestJS and TypeScript, so if something here is not well put or incorrect then please feel free to provide the necessary info to correct me since I care far more about getting dat booty than I do being right on the internet :D
Sooo, a year or so ago I got a hold on the Nest JS framework. A TypeScript based stack used to build microservices for node. Sounded good enough in terms of structure, it is based on the same format that Angular uses, so if you use Angular then the module system that the application has will make sense.
I attempted (last night) to play with the framework (which I normally don't since I am not that much of a big fan of frameworks and prefer a library based approach) and found a couple of things that weird me out about their selling points, mainly, how it deals with inversion of control.
My issue: This is dependency injection for people that don't really understand the concept of dependency injection. SOLID principles seem to be thrown out of the window completely due to how coupled with one another items are. Literally, you cannot change one dependency coming from one portion to the other(i.e a service into a controller) without changing all references to it, so if you were using a service specification for a particular database, and change the database, you would have to manually edit that very same service, or define another one....AND change the hardwire of the code from the providers section all the way into the controllers that use it....this was a short example, but you get the gist. This is more of a service locator type of deal than well....actual dependency injection. Oh, and the documentation uses classes rather than interfaces WHICH is where I started noticing that the whole intention of dependency injection was weird. Then I came to realize that TypeScript interfaces are meeheed out during transpilation.
Digging into the documentation I found about custom providers that could somehowemaybekinda work through. But in the end it requires far too much and items that well, they just don't feel as natural as if I was writing this in C# or Java, or PHP (actually where I use it the most)
I still think it is a framework worth learning, but I believe that this might be a bias of mine of deriving from the norm to which I was and have been used to doing the most.3 -
Hello. (Android) dev here contemplating about the future of my profession.
I am looking for a specialization or a field in my profession where i can be free of dependencies from GAFAM (The big five)
Basically software development is me only using dependencies and stuff they and 3rdparty people have created and then it works or it doesnt. Or if you dont keep it up2date it wont work because deprecation and breaking changes. I was web developer before and changed to android because of all the libs and frameworks one needed to wield for proper development. And now android has mostly become the same. Vanilla android is easy, but u start using google apis or 3rdparty services u quickly realize how far u get away from your actual usecase. Usermanagement, oauth, 2fa, userdatamanagement, crossplattform, offline, syncing etc.
I am pretty sure the topic came up before (dev fatigue, dependency fatigue) and most of you know what i mean but i might be the recent casualty here.2 -
Hey guys I've a question that's been on my mind for a little bit. I recently got my first full time dev job as a junior developer. Overall I'm really happy with the opportunity to work in the industry, but in the company we're using old technology ext js and PL/SQL. I'm wondering will this make things harder when looking for other jobs in the future that use more modern frameworks, or is it that the actual industry experience is more important?8
-
I've lost count of the days at this point...
First things first, lets all praise musky for getting David Bowie stuck in my head for the next month or so, not a bad thing, his song choice was on point. Also the rants have become few and far between because apparently I have to be an "adult" and go to work, pay my bills, and other things that distract me from programming.
Okay, now to the actual dev stuff. I've started to think that maybe my scope of languages is limited somewhat to my comfort zone, which is only java at this point. So for my project (game development), I've decided to pick a language based on what will work best instead of what I'm comfortable with, my runners so far...
C++: The default go to for game development. I would chose this but if I did, my best C++ game would look like Frankenstein's monster and would be filled with terrible code. For that alone I have scratched C++ from my list, for lack of experience.
Java: My usual, my go to, my comfort zone. I don't want to be comfortable though, I want to learn things. That asides, java has tones of resources, frameworks, libraries, and tutorials available. In addition, it's also able to run on pretty much anything, huge ++. The cons are trying to find the best resources, frameworks, libraries, and tutorials to use for a particular situation and that can be hard and confusing. Java may still be my go to but I'll get to that with the next language.
C#: I have never touched C# in my life, and the only things I know about it are what I've heard or read. So far I've heard it is SIMILAR to java, based around C++, and has aged really well compared to other languages. I like that it is similar to java without it being the same language, it will force me to learn things over and you can never reinforce the basics enough. It also has the huge benefit of being Microsoft based while still running on iOS, linux, macOS, windows, and android. This gives me really easy access to implement a mobile version (in the future obviously), while being able to run well on windows, the default OS for most gamers.
Overall I will start writing in C# and see if I like it. If I don't it's no big deal, I still have a good option in java to fall back on. I'm open to hearing opinions on this topic, java vs. C# but please keep your bias nonexistent and you constructive conversation very high. If any actual game developers that have experience with both languages are out their, and reading this, please comment so I can pick your brain.
Some of you may ask about the android scholarship, I contacted google and told them android development wasn't for me so they sent someone a late invite and rescinded mine, hopefully someone else will put it to better use.
Holy god this is long. I'm sorry. -
Just discovered https://twitter.com/ExpertBeginner1. It's the story of my life. Giant classes, copying and pasting, and architects who create frameworks. It's great when we combine all three: A "framework" created by an architect which is made of giant classes that you copy and paste. Imagine a giant generic class where the generic argument is only used by dead code. Pause for a moment and try to visualize that.
It inherits from a base class with lots of virtual methods called by base methods that throw NotImplementedException, so if you don't need them you have to override them to return empty collections. If you're going to do something so messed up you could just put those default implementations in the base. But no, you can inherit, it compiles, and then it throws a runtime error unless you override methods the compiler doesn't require you to override.
The one method you're required to override has a TODO comment telling you what to put there. Except don't ever do what the comment says because that's the old standard. The new standard says never, ever do that.
Most of the time when I read about copy-and-paste coding it's about devs who copy and paste because they don't know how to write or reuse code. They don't mention the environments where copying and pasting the same classes over and over again is the requirement and you're not allowed to write your own code.
Creating base classes where you just override a method or two can potentially work, but only in the right scenarios and only if you do it right. If you're copying and pasting a class that inherits from the base class and consists entirely of repeated code, why the heck isn't that the base class? It could be a total mess, but at least it would be out of sight and each successive developer wouldn't become responsible for it by including it in their own code.
It's a temporary engagement, but I feel almost violated. I know it's a first-world problem, and I get to work indoors and take vacations. I'm grateful for those things.
Before leaving I had to document the entire process of copying and pasting an entire repo, making a ton of baseline edits that should just be in the template but aren't, and then copying and pasting from other places into the copied and pasted code. That makes me a collaborator. I apologize more than once in the documentation, all 20 pages of it that you have to read and follow before you even get to the part where you write the code for what you actually need it to do.
This architect has succeeded in making every single thing anyone does more about servicing the needs of his "framework" than about writing actual code to do what needs doing. Now that the framework is in and around everything it creates the illusion that it's a critical part of our operations. It's not. It's useless overhead.
Because management is deceived into thinking they need it they overlook the fact that it blows up, big and small, every single day. The log is full of failures that I know no one ever sees. A big chunk of what they think it does fails silently, and they don't even notice until months later when they realize how much data they're missing. But if they lose, say, 25% they'll never notice.
When they do notice they just act like it's normal, go into fire drill mode, and fix it. Doom. You're all doomed. I'm standing on the deck of the Titanic next to my jet ski.1 -
If you've ever had to do hiring (technical side) of new software developer\s, the seniority in terms of working years is the most valuable criteria for you or the hiring department, or there's else?
On my side I'm a software developer from around 1 year and here (in Italy) your price is, from what I've seen, based on the seniority in terms of time, rarely actual skills\adaptability.
I'm good as a full stack developer and I'm proficient in adapting\learning to-new\new skills about new languages and Frameworks.
Soon I'm leaving my underpaying job with good output from my work\projects, but I'm faced with this seniority nonsense that makes most of the recruiters silent because the new price is similar of someone with high seniority, and I'm kinda tired of this, so I'm here to hear your thoughts about this.