4 years ago

Me: you probably shouldn’t use an IDE, you would learn a lot more about the language if you did things manually.

JavaFriend: Nah I’m all good

Me: alright you do you

4 years LATER

Me: *gets text* oh it’s from JavaFriend. *opens text*

JavaFriend: “dude so I decided to stop using my IDE’s and start doing things manually and I’m learning so much”

Me: ...
Me: I know. I’ve been doing it like this for a reason.

I know IDEs are helpful and good to use but personally I like to work without them and I feel it helps you learn the language more of you go without it.
If you have opinions on the topic in general lemme know.

I use the IDE to have easier access to things. I know I could just edit stuff in the project and do ./gradlew build to run all the things needed to build it.

I think you don't need to rely on editor + CLI-only, but you need to know how to do things without an IDE.

@kescherRant I agree. My only point is I wish people stopped learning with an IDE so that when they do get an IDE they can still function without the IDE handling everything

Your java friend is now “woke”

They really need to stop teaching by the IDE, and learning using the IDEs... when teaching programming they need to start from the bottom and work your way up... learn how todo things manually rather than jumping into the tools and then you’ll understand why and how the tool does things.

my opinion is that IDEs are a good crutch at the start to familiarize yourself with syntax. once you feel more confident, you can work without one for a while and really solidify your skills. then go back to it because the time saved is also important

@QuanticoCEO yeah because when you take the IDE away they might be able to write the code but even if they manage that they won’t know how to run it. I say might because I know that there’s that group that relies on intellisense to guess what they want to type so they end up not memorizing what to use

@Techno-Wizard I still believe it’s important to understand what the IDE is doing, and to not have to worry about being more confused about learning manual execution/debugging later, but after that’s already learned then yeah go for it cause you don’t need to worry about that anymore, and you have the knowledge just in case

@Bubbles YES! YES EXACTLY!..

The first few weeks after getting new batches of interns and co op students they always think I’m crazy and want to know why I’m making them do “all this extra” work. Not allowing them to use the IDEs... I always walk them thru how todo it.. how to make their own make files.. how everything works.. why intellisense during learning creates bad programmers. I don’t let them use the debuggers early on... I make them create printfs.. or wiggle lines..and hook oscilloscopes and multi meter ups. I want them learning what’s going on rather than what the computer is interpreting as going on and reporting....

I make them Read the reference manuals for the micros.. read the data sheet and reference manuals for the compiler.. etc... I make them read it, I don’t let them read it on the computer.. I make them print it out highlight, take notes etc.

About 50% to 75% thru the coop term they finally get the AHHHH HAA moment happen... every single of them thanks me for forcing them and teaching them to do it the true way.. and I’ve had all my interns come back each semester.. most of the company has started as interns here. And then get hired out of college.

Most of my software engineers here don’t even use IDEs.. they just use their favorite text editor, cli, etc.

The strict disciple early on creates competent, and very knowledgable programmers. And gives them a huge confidence boost.. literally just jumping right into projects..

@QuanticoCEO I completely agree. I learned at first tried to learn C++ with just an IDE and it was awful and scared me off into python which I learned manually avoiding IDE’s and it’s one of my best languages and I understand it a lot more.

Also what do you do if you don’t mind me asking because it sounded like a bit more than just programming and I’m intrigued.

Im a Lead Embedded Software Engineer, for an automotive supplier, in west Michigan. (The big one) lol

And then I also own my own company, we do AI R&D and Robotics.

@QuanticoCEO oh shit, that’s bitchin. Yeah I hope you got guys that know what they’re doing

@Bubbles oh yeah my guys and gals, definitely are highly capable. They all come in as interns and coops the same exact way... it always makes me laugh when they come in try to argue against my way of “teaching” ... thinking I’m “out dated ways” but they are always confused considering my age.. which I think is why they give in “play along”... i think they would “write” off my older coworkers as stuck in their old ways.. and me because I’m far closer to their age, are more confused yet intrigued as why someone my age would be doing it they way the “old guys” are doing it.. but like I said, give them a month or so, and they get that Ahhh Ha moment and that moment is always a beautiful moment when it happens.. this “synchronicity” moment happens at every time.. and from that point forward with that group of interns. The development with them is just awesome... like at that moment I truly know they “get it” the big picture, in its entirety.

@QuanticoCEO to understand how things work you need to start from the core and out. I wish it wasn’t considered the way it is nowadays with the mentality of “I’ll do it later since there’s a tool that does it for me”

@Bubbles ugghh I know!!!!! University’s and high schools are not teaching this shit correctly and flooding the market with shitty programmers... at this point, just tool configurers and “integrators” people that just piece libraries and frameswork functions together using intelisense and calling it programming.

But to the universities it’s all a numbers game, the easier they make the courses and the higher the numbers more money.. with no care for quality of knowledge and experience gained

@QuanticoCEO it really doesn’t help that a lot of tutorials on YouTube or books tell you to just use an IDE. Like that’s one of the worst parts because those are two things that people who try to get resources resort to. And it lets them think that they don’t need to learn to do things without the IDE.

Intellisense to complete things is okay if you already know what you’re trying to type, I’ve also used it to see what kind of functions a class/library has, but that’s only if I know what I’m looking for

@Bubbles I wouldn't dare try to compile a large project without one or a package manager to be honest

@Techno-Wizard that’s sad

@QuanticoCEO I've never found resources for compiling large Java projects. If you have one, I'd love to read it.

@Techno-Wizard have you ever heard of Ant?... Maven?... Gradle? .... the JDK, from Oracle comes with the java compiler ... it runs from the command line, regardless if your using the IDE or not.

Java does not contain its own build system, thus you must use a build system from some third party.. like Ant, Maven, or Gradle.. Rake, GNUMake... all the build system does is script up the manual compiling of each source file into an object file and then combining all the object files into one executable, hex or in java a Jar..... a build system is the process/workflow to creating a recipe/script to compiling a Project containing source code..

Again not only does the IDE, compile your program using the command line java compiler, but it also just runs a script to automate the command line compiler in the order you need to with all the proper compiler options per file. When you set up your project in say eclipse all you are doing is creating an XML file of which files and configurations of options etc you are using in your project, and then on push of compile button, the ide takes the XML as variables, feeds that into a parser to Auto generate a build script, then it runs the build script which contains a bunch of calls to the java compiler and this is how the project is build...

All of it is done in the command line right now on your computer, the IDE just hides it from you... well actually it doesn’t, most people just don’t realize wtf is going on when they push the button... that “debug” window that tells you if it compiles or not, the one that has a lot of scrolling text after you push the button for compile.. alll that is the is an piped output of the build-script as it tells java cli executable to compile.. if you scroll to the top, and put verbose mode on, you can see exactly what is happens .. and you can do the same thing by opening the project.xml or config Files, along with the auto gen build script

@Techno-Wizard allllllllll the ide does is abstract the nuts and bolts of the true magic that turns your English words into machine or run time environment understood instructions.... IDEs are abstracting and hiding 90% of process of software engineering... 100% of the real magic.... without the magic your text on the screen that just text on the screen..

As a software engineer you should know 100% of the process, not just the 10% part of writing “code”..... the whole debugging ... that can be done in the cli too... the IDE does it... it just takes the results of the cli and parses it and displays it nicely on the screen... everything and anything a GUI can do is just an abstracted/automated process that would typically have to type yourself in the CLI... AND this is why IDEs are bloated and slow we than shit... nothing beats the speed of a CLI... especially considering the tools are just calling the cli in the background and then taking the rest of the time to display it “pretty”

@Techno-Wizard so again, doesn’t matter how big the project is.. AND he’ll you should do big projects not in an IDE.. whaaa ...WHY? Simple dependency hell, when a project is soo large you have so much much going on.. you better understand every nook and cranny of that code... and that includes the build system... you can create your own build scripts and have the ide call it .. ignoring and saying ohh the ide will Handle it is setting yourself up for failure... as you couldn’t explain to someone the build process of the project...

@QuanticoCEO the book “Learn C the hard way” likes to drill the habit of doing all that in from the start it’s probably the best book on C imo

@Bubbles oh I’ve never heard of that book, but I’m gonna look into that...

And it’s the second best book of C... the best book of will always be “K&R’s The C Programming Language”.... hands down...... lol it’s got a chapter 0.... literally the “instruction” manual of C and it’s intentions from of the inventors the Language... AND unix... it’s like bible of software engineering.

@QuanticoCEO I know that’s the case but personally I don’t use that book because compilers have made many advancements overtime and that book is kinda just stuck in time. I know C is kinda in the same spot but it gets updates still and new features with new compilers. But that’s just how I see it. I know it’s still a good book for C but I personally just like Learn C the Hard Way more

@Bubbles touché touché

@QuanticoCEO 😎

@QuanticoCEO don't get me wrong, I use maven for all my java projects