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@Alice I think you missed the point...
Also, I didn't say only do frontend development, I said pretty much the exact opposite.
You seem to be stuck on that "haxor" thing. The point of that was to say that programming used to involve gaining a deep understanding of computer systems, which I realized when I was 12.
For not trying to sound elitist, you sure sound elitist.
Just because someone doesn't have the same priorities as you doesn't mean you should discredit them completly.
Do you know a lot about some systems you have developed on? Good. Use it to your advantage, get a fucking raise or something.
I'd get it if they were bags of sand devs, who bragged about how good they fucking are and then they don't know shit.
I've had professors at my University who said memory allocated in the heap could be buffer overflowed in such a manner that the return address could be overwritten.
Meanwhile, the fucking return address is on the stack. But he constantly bragged about how awesome he was. Didn't know shit.
But fucking people who have different opinions and priorities than me? Jesus. It's like saying people who sprint aren't real runners because they don't run very far.
psukys3022yI see your point as rather Utopian. While there's always something to learn about software engineering, generally a person is responsible (and probably has higher interest) for his professional stack.
@BigBoo I guess I didn't get my point across well.
My issue is with people who choose to only learn the bare minimum (which are also the ones that often say they only do frontend development, in my experience) and then sit there and try to talk about shit they have no clue about.
Basically, I'm not happy with the people who are calling themselves programmers and aren't really programmers. The "I'm a wordpress programmer" people and the "I know [language X] and can do anything with it, so I don't need to learn anything else" fuckheads.
Real masters of any craft - including programming - never stop learning.
@Gogeta70 Ok. I still have the same problem.
To me, you are clinging to belonging to this group way too hard and you want it to be exclusive. Too bad, it's not even a group. It's just a label. Some developers are fucking garbage. They are still developers. Even if they refuse to learn.
It's kind of like me saying. You are not a real man until X.
You're not a real person if you Y.
You are only justifying yourself to degrade others.
@BigBoo That's an interesting point of view there, but you're way off. I don't need approval of others, a pat on the back, or to degrade other people to feel good about myself.
You're failing to see the big picture here.
@Alice This rant is not about knowing a lot of languages, which languages you know or should know, etc.
It is about people's mentality. The mentality that bare minimum effort is good enough.
My point is that I don't see as many of these "programmers" showing an in-depth understanding of what they're doing.
It's these same people that write the shitty code that people rant about on here. It's the same people that copy & paste code and hope for the best.
What I'm talking about is passion and drive.
It's a quality in people that I don't see as much anymore. It's what makes people wonder how the program does what it does, why things are done a certain way. It's what makes people ask, "Can I do this better?"
Now, the majority of what I see is what I like to call "cookie-cutter software". It's software made mostly of frameworks and plugins. It's "Lego-ware".
It would be nice to see more people asking "How does this work?" and "Can I do it better?"
I never said people aren't programmers because they don't know what I know.
I would recommend removing your rose-colored glasses and reading everything again.
I've made my point blatantly clear, and you both are way off in your interpretations. I'm not going to continue wasting words on people who refuse to understand what I'm actually saying.
@Alice I actually re-read my posts and comments a number of times before posting them. I've said exactly what I mean to say.
Your interpretation keeps bringing up me comparing them to myself, which I have not done even once.
I'm saying things as they are, I'm not going to apologize if that offends you. You should try looking past your own biases to see things more objectively.
@Gogeta70 You make assumptions that everyone should do something because you do it. Just because you see it as the truth doesn't mean it is.
Your viewpoint is subjective, not objective.
But reading your other comments it's not hard to understand why you express yourself in such a manner.
If others are unable to see your point of view, how does it help me to see your point of view, which is, that you don't degrade people who doesn't think like you, by degrading people who doesn't think like you.
🤷♂️ I guess I'm a fucking moron to think that you don't insult people when you insult people.
@BigBoo Why does that keep coming up? I NEVER SAID everyone should do what I do because I do it.
The only people I'm really insulting are the people who make a mockery of people who actually do have a passion for programming.
To sum up my ENTIRE point: I dislike people who half-ass programming (and are rather bad at even basic stuff) and strut around calling themselves bad-ass coders. I also wish I saw more people with real passion for programming - the same kind of people that helped me and kept me going when I was 12+ years old.
I just don't fucking get it. How is that offensive to you, Alice, or really anyone else?
@Gogeta70 Ok. Let me ask you then.
When I say.
You have certain assumptions that are subjective and you treat them as facts.
What assumptions do you think that I mean?
I just want to know if we are even talking about the same thing and that you actually understand.
Also the point that you only hated people who said they were uber haxor and did the minimum amount of things was never your point.
Your point was that people need to seek new knowledge to call themselves programmers. And I think that's an elitist way of looking at it.
@BigBoo If you want to make a point, then make it. I'm not going to play at guessing - but I don't have to. You keep bringing up something I never said - "people should do what I do".
Also, I only mentioned the hacking thing briefly. I don't like people calling themselves programmers when they barely have an understanding of it.
Perhaps titles and labels have less meaning these days. I'm decent at cooking, does that make me a chef? Does making a video with your spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend make you a porn star? Does staring at the sky make you an astronomer?
I hope to god we can both agree that the answer to those questions is "no".
To become a chef, porn star, astronomer, or whatever else, you need a certain level of proficiency and knowledge in that field.
So yes, I absolutely stand behind the idea that you need to have a certain level of knowledge and proficiency to call yourself a programmer. Guilty as fucking charged.
@Autism420 Thank you, someone who at least can re-iterate some of my points.
I don't think I am being arrogant here - a bit passionate, maybe.
Do you think I'm being arrogant?
@Gogeta70 I give up. You miss the point, backpedal to say your point was something it wasn't all along. Insult me for not getting you when you are the one missing my point.
My problem is that you say that a developer always need to seek out new knowledge.
It's like saying that the pizza baker on the corner isn't a pizza baker because he's not trying to re-invent the pizza game or learn about the origin of pizza.
To some people, it's just a fucking job. Maybe they are more passionate about something else in life, but they cannot support them selves doing that. So they become developers.
And I think it's elitist to say that you need to constantly seek out new knowledge to be a part of your profession.
I don't talk about specifics. I don't talk about base knowledge. I never did.
Also. On your shipment on chef/not chef.
If you are a good chef and you are not employed. You could be a hobbyist chef.
If you are a shit developer and employed. Then you are a professional developer.
@mrtn Well, not quite. Kings are ultimately only kings if the people agree. Programmers are programmers if they have knowledge and experience in programming.
@BigBoo Aside from calling you naive, I haven't insulted you at all, at least not intentionally.
My point has stayed the same the entire time. You can't just copy & paste code or stumble your way through coding something basic and call yourself a programmer.
Also, I never said anything about *new* knowledge, only that being a programmer required knowledge of what the hell you're doing.
@D--M PHP is also a scripting language. Also, you conveniently removed the text after my comment that you quoted. I said the lines between programming and scripting have been blurred.
Also, did I ask you for a job? No, I didn't. Your comment here is more "word vomit" and pointless than anything I've written.
@Autism420 Well, at least someone understands what I'm trying to say.
These people keep nit-picking shit and missing the entire damned point.
Regardless, just because it's an unpopular opinion doesn't mean I won't speak out. We can't censor ourselves just because people don't like what we say.
And, to be honest, pissing off some people isn't going to ruin my day, not even a minute.
Aight, I'll bite.
Since I evidently need to spell this out for you;
I'm calling you a hypocrite.
As for the comment on not hiring, simple statement to express how much I dislike your personality and attitude.
I'd wager most people would say the same.
@BigBoo Ok, so that's a point I made too. I don't see the problem with it.
Perhaps I went a bit hard on front-end devs. It comes from my experience in seeing people bitch about problem X, then saying "but I'm only a front-end dev, I can't do that".
The second part of that point is referring to a pretty popular saying: "If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail".
Do you disagree that keeping up on newer technologies (and old ones!) gives you an advantage in knowing what the best tool(s) for the job are?
The idea is that *good* programmers don't become complacent. They keep finding ways to improve how they do what they do, and that means learning new things and discovering new tools.
@D--M I don't really care what you think of me. And you just showed that you, once again, take things out of context and change their meaning.
If you want to make an intellectual argument against the points I was actually making, by all means go ahead.
As it stands, this "hypocrite" has nothing to say to you.
This was an interesting read ha. I think @Gogeta70 is right though, maybe the argument was a bit off due to frustration. But I think most people going against him are missing the point.
For *me* programmers are people who are always hungry to learn more, improve their software and want to understand on a deeper level how their/a system works. Gain knowledge in a deeper level so you can understand your own implementations (big O notation for example and which algorithms to implement because of it in which situations)
Not just people who learn the basics of a programming language, and call themselves programmers (frontend or backend). Because in my opinion they miss a vast understanding of computer systems and honestly your just playing around.
This was my take on it anyways :D
@Gogeta70 Well. Requiring people to continually to improve and to have a passion for something just because you have a passion is what I said was elitist.
That you're not a real programmer unless you have the drive.
On your second point. You do realize that you are asking me if learning can be beneficial?
Do I even have to answer that? How stupid do you think I am.
@Gogeta70 Well you change your mind in every fucking post. And were back to the beginning. I think you are elitist for requiring people to have the same passion as you to be "real".
And you finish it with insulting people.
Good way of showing that you're not an elitist fuck who discredit people as fast as they don't live up to your standards.
Which was my original point.
But atleast I don't have to change my mind and backpedal on that just because I'm afraid of being wrong. 🤷♂️
Brolls34862y@Alice there’s an awful lot of /r/iamverysmart and /r/gatekeeping content around here on devrant.
I understand the reasoning around one-note developers (and any profession really), but surely there’s a better way of putting it in terms of being broadly skilled versus narrowly skilled.
I’ve personally never understood the whole “OMG you should learn everything” mentality in programming, division of labour is a very real thing; and when you try to argue superiority you just end up coming off as a bit of a neckbeard douche.
I too, had to chuckle and couldn’t finish it.
*cries* the feels. i know exactly what you mean with how hacker and programmer used to be closer together. haven't come across too many "i only do X" ppl but i have come across many that "only do X".
i know some who hate me for not having a degree and being an "OG". fu, i like this shit, i wanted to learn how the crap works, i wanted to stay up past midnight to figure out how to code something, whether it was simple math and syntax based or breaking a system.
and it's not just programming, you mentioned mechanics. 1337 mechanics i know bitch about the same things. "kids" who will say "i only do tires" or w/e job on the car they know. fu, youre not a mechanic, youre a grunt slave worker. l2_X_ mother fuker.
i wana say it's the "system" changing. college is required yet ppl learn less in college now than they used to being taught as an apprentice. they only need to do 1 thing bc jobs are saturated.
leads to shit quality ppl
it's a damn shame.
read some comments
lol now i'm gona sound old
when i was learning shit, i was told to learn how to learn, not to learn <language> or w/e
Here's my 2 cents.
Your passion about software development is commendable. I sure wish there were more people who'd be willing to jump into why something works the way it works. That way we can all get rid of spaghetti code written to do things the "framework way".
But at the end of the day, programming is nothing more than stringing together pieces of logic to build out a flow that may eventually ear some business. If it doesn't then the "real programmer" is not adding to the value chain. To pursue that people sometimes have to reprioritize the way they learn things. They might not have the time or passion at the moment to do that. Maybe later they will.
Feel free to agree to disagree.
lol reading more comments, i see the OP point is rippling through these comments bitching about 1337ism
new age is more robotic, somewhat gentle, learning methods. yet i see the same actions being condemed from new age ppl i've seen make fun of noobs in other post