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duckWit58213yWhile I understand the feeling of frustration, by accusing an entire generation you are putting an awfully lot of people in your crosshairs that don't deserve to be there. I know plenty of older devs that do the same thing you are complaining about, and plenty of young devs that don't do what you are accusing them of doing.
There have always been people who go for a quick fix over true knowledge and there always will be. It's not exclusive to a particular generation.
I see a lot of generalized accusations without any evidence of being true.
With that being said, you come across as one of those "kids these days" and "back in my day" assholes. Not a good look bud.
Why should we read a whole fucking book for something specific when there's an exact answer to your question already out there?
Sure, not reading the documentation is bad. But this is 2018. We have anything we want to know available at the tap of a few keys. Why use antiquated methods of finding that information?
Time is money and money makes the world go round. So why waste time and money when there's tools available to make your life easier.
Yeah fuck those ignorant lazy bastards.
The percentage of people who read the docs properly and really, really know what they're doing has always been pretty small. Earlier only those people could be software engineers. Now anyone can. That doesn't mean that software engineering is going down, it's just the more popular stuff, because they lack rigour. But that will always be true for popular stuff because you really can't expect everyone to show the same level of rigour.
I know several people from my college who totally go against this so-called degeneration of the field - one guy used to make compilers dance with Haskell and LLVM before I could barely program a simple recursive descent parser. So yeah. And my college wasn't anywhere near the best in my country.
thomasd3693yThere are two things at play here:
There are more coders today so the number of incompetent ones is larger, but also many older people got into this by true passion,.
To be be realistic, only geeks had a C64 or an Atari, etc while today everyone has a computer and can decide to get into coding.
So naturally, you have a lot more bad programmers and many happen to be younger since it’s more mainstream now, but there are also brilliant young programmers out there.
So you're basically describing a newb, or sometimes a n00b. (I hope I don't have to explain the difference)
We were all there.
Just... spark your memory a bit. Look through some of your old e-mails or something. People forget, but trust me, we've all been dumb newbs or even n00bs. We've all asked stupid questions, had stupid opinions, and were too lazy to RTFM.
And dude, when I was in school, I didn't know what a TAR file was, and now devs are looking up to my opinion on dev subjects to the point that it's making me uncomfortable.
Yeah, the barrier of entry is becoming lower because highly skilled devs are doing the hard stuff so that the rest don't have to. And that's fine. There are a ton of developer tasks, and only a few require top notch skills, while the rest are boring to highly skilled people. Let anyone join, there will be enough work for them if they have enough skills.
I totally get it, spent a few years teaching in uni, I found people can't read nowadays also common sense isn't really common anymore... every programming language comes with a manual, but I doubt many people ever touched it during their entire careers, every time I saw people whinging about stack overflow has a toxic community because blah's thread's marked as duplicated, but often the question is really trivial people just need to read documents carefully.
Except, I don't remember the four letter options after tar for decompressing...after spending decade on Linux, I still Google it everytime when I need it ;P
Some are meant for working on the details, others on managing a bigger picture, and then there are those that work with the details that want to expand into managing a bigger picture and those managing the bigger picture wanting to expand into the details. Both are going to be new and struck in their way of thinking at first but that changes with time of course.
As many already pointed out here.
OP's point (as I understood) is that a lot of people (this doesn't absolutely means everybody, so don't act like they are talking of you) is going for "the easy way", because, as you said, "why should we use antiquated methods to get info"? Well, someone has to do it. Someone will have to be antiquated, read those boring manuals, learn how things work and then help other people by giving answers. If everybody stop reading manuals, then there will be nobody to give answers.
Besides that, even if it take more time and effort, I think going through manuals is still the best thing. You think, analyse and develop a solution by yourself, instead of just copying it. (Ok, there are limits for that, it isn't necessary to reinvent the wheel every time..)
@AndSoWeCode say it a little bit louder for the people out back.
The level of arrogance and mental superiority that radiates from many in the IT/programming field is fucking cancerous. I guess they expect us to all be like Gates from birth or something. But it's not practical at all.
@taglia My example is dealing with a specific problem, not an entire language.
No shit you should read a few books when learning. But I'm not breaking out some 700 page book in hopes of finding an answer to my specific question in the book. That's the definition of insanity and stupidity.
And as I said, you should read documentation. But at some point, it's more practical to take advantage of modern tools instead of unnecessarily wasting time and energy. It's just pointless and dumb.
delc823343yBe a good person and everytime you see a bad dev teach them to be good. And please don't feel hate towards others, we are all brothers. Be an example for youngers who might read your post.
You got roasted.
Well this is a "proper" rant. I agree with you mate.
Chill1333yI still think there are and will be the top notch programers, really smart people with pasion for it but as their numbers grow in tens ... The bellow average, from courses learning developers grow thousands times faster. I can see something like this at our and neighboring universities.
Some 20 years ago someone ranted that this new generation never reads the source, always going to docs, they never understand how this system truly works. It’s all going to hell -_-
deodexed5943yYou're right about me putting my crosshair on those who doesn't deserve it but I'd rather drop a bomb than aiming at each and everyone that derserves it with a stick.
@Stuxnet you got the thinking backward, maybe your problem wouldn't have happened if you would have read the proper stuff.
Even though I totally understand that sometimes it's way quicker to just Google for stuff but nonetheless we still need the people with the knowledge, this is the truth we can't avoid.
i like to disagree here and join in the others, its illogical to use time resources like its candy. I KNOW that i am pretty mediocre with all the stuff i touch at work, but people ask me to automatize stuff, so i write a few VBA scripts with interface, there are probably holes in it, but it works and i spend reasonable amounts of time to make it fool resistant.
people want to display information on a screen, i tinker a solution with a barcode scanner, a raspberry pi and some patch work of jscript/jquery, php and html for the looks..could i have done better, sure. But my time is valuable, i write down where i see holes and try it to make it as good as possible within given parameters.
everything i do has one philosophy: "as good as necessary, as cheap as possibly"
and this also applies to hobby projects, if i would spend countless hours to understand something of what i only need one piece, nothing would ever get dont
time = valuable /rant
@taglia Actually kinda am lmao.
I've never read the documentation completely through or even 75% of it before. I find the documentation for my specific problem and read that, then move on.
But I agree. Not reading it is a god awful thing to do. It's just pointless to read someone else's regurgitation of the documentation for a small issue.
rant1ng47643yReading the specs to gain a deeper understanding behind your day to day work is never a waste of time, Unless of course you're on a deadline.
Lazy people who suck at their job has never been a new thing.
arekxv10103yReading is so annoying for most devs nowadays. I've been asked many times to help in a situation which would he solved if a person spent 5 minutes RTFM-ing the docs in the project. Not everything can be googled and/or found on stack overflow. Some things just have to be understood.
If it makes you feel any better, not everyone blindly codes without reading the documentation. I try to always read the documentation for whatever language/framework/library I'm using before implementing it and when my code doesn't work the way that I expect it to, the first thing I do is dig right back into the appropriate documentation.
There are times that I get frustrated that the documentation might assume a certain level of understanding that I might not have yet and so there's some parts of the documentation that gets lost on me, but I try to take a step back from it and realize that documentation is a really difficult thing to pull off - you don't want to put every little thing in there and annoy the people who are looking for specific information relevant to them and you don't want to exclude information that would be crucial to a newbie who might not grasp your logic as well as a more experienced dev. Though I wrote a ridiculously long README for my labs project, so ...
Agree partly: I started coding with the age of 13, started the classic way with books, getting ideas and code code code... Now I have my apprenticeship as a software developer and i am the only one in my school class, who is working on own projects instead of doing the small coding tasks we get. (tasks like a basic calculator or like writing a pwgen that generate pseudo random numbers and use ascii table to get the chars... I made a simple oneliner in python which uses os.urandom)
They show no interest in coding. They don't code out of school or work...
I'm alone in a group of "I want to learn software development because of the salary"
I know there are more and more people getting into software development without interest, but not all.
Parzi94673yI seem to be a "bridge" between generations of SE, of sorts. I'm 18, so I should be as you describe, and to a point, I am, but this is ALSO my passion. I grew up taking PCs apart and coding. I'm just as capable with CLI as with GUI.
Good SEs are coming. We're rare, but we're still coming.