I despise architects that don't code in project

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    The architect of a house doesn't have to be the one to mix the cement or paint the walls.
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    Architects are people, so you say, "who," not, "that."
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    @iamai constructor workers don't work with plastic shovels because architect tough this would be next great thing.
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    @AlwaysSceptical if you think it's poor design then you can assert yourself how to make it better. If decide to stay quiet it's your decision not theirs.
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    Agree, there's multiple problems with architects who don't develop. The outdated skills, the derogatory idea they dictate the "what" and "how" with developers as mere code monkeys...

    The analogy of architects and construction workers is a flawed one anyway. Devs aren't doing assembly, like mixing concrete and laying bricks. Assembly is the job of *our compilers*. Devs are doing the equivalent of creating blueprints. A highly creative and mentally demanding *design activity*, far from the "mindlessly staring at a screen and typing all day" cliché.

    Which is also why loud and distractive large open plan offices are detrimental to a dev's job, and their alleged "synergy effects" are a lie. The Joel test lists "quiet working conditions" for a reason. Which, fittingly, you won't find on a construction site.
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    @VanderNT I get the point that architects are not doing the actual task of implementing the design. This could be many reason but it feels OT e has concerns about the design. If he has that then can share his thoughts or ask clarifications why that was chosen. Sometimes there are design reasons that developer don't see at their level unless they ask. It also depends on the architect if they listen to the points raised and explain as well.

    An analogy doesn't attempt to be a perfect example just enough to show the idea of the thought. If accuracy in the discussion is imperative then analogies can be dropped because people can find flaws on the analogy when the analogy not even the topic. To also assume a developer in an open plan office can't do creative work because it's not a quiet condition would be hasty generalization. Different people, different ways.

    The issue is likely the design, so focus on the issue.
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    > it feels OT e has concerns about the design

    How do you tell from the two sentences here? I don't see it.
    Though I agree on your general point, good communication is key.

    > An analogy doesn't attempt to be a perfect example just enough to show the idea of the thought

    Well, mixing cement and paintig walls wasn't originally brough up by me 🤷‍♂️. And that idea isn't just inaccurate, it's plain wrong.

    > To also assume a developer in an open plan office can't do creative work because it's not a quiet condition would be hasty generalization

    Bullshit. This is backed up by studies and explained in detail in books like "Peopleware". I can accept that some people are less affected by distractions. However, generally speaking, distractions are detrimental to work that requires concentration. It's not a "matter of taste" or "different ways" or any of that fact-ignoring trash. Sorry, *this* really pushes my buttons.
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    @VaderNT no worries, feel free to rage
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    @iamai you know, thanks for your understanding. I realize this triggers me harder than it should, and has nothing to do with you personally.

    It's... well long story short, I've had managers trying to gaslight me about this stuff, and coworkers obviously suffering from the many distractions but still nodding along. I've been fighting for better working conditions for so long, just to see them become worse ("Facebook is doing it, too!"), maybe it's starting to wear me out.
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    @VaderNT It's alright to be frustrated; get angry. It may also help if you let it out - write it down, talk about it, sweat it out or do whatever to calm down.

    Each person has their own experiences & agendas in work & in life. I try to step in another person's shoe.

    The OT's designer might be not updated in technology or could be constricted with odd requirements from the client or the company. It really isn't the designer's job to code. But it's his job to ensure the system will work well. OT doesn't have to stop with just hating. There is the option to work with the designer and improve the design. They could talk about the 'plastic shovels'.
    Managers are also just salaried people. They have to follow higher up decisions. Parotting the same spiel given to them. Not limited to just open space setups, they may be afraid to go against it or they may have argued and lost. In the end we just adapt either in the same environment or a new one. Find the place that works for you :)
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    @iamai I have made a page long description pr that contains solution for bad design, but in repose I got "architecture is set up, we won't change it"
    Long story short. To save up 5 lines of code we have to write 20 more and break at least a few language/coding principals. The rest of the team don't care and architect won't have to write or live with that bad code so he doesn't care at all.
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    @AlwaysSceptical When you rewrite bad code then revalidation tests will have to be done. Your boss will have to tell it to the client or report to management that major changes could be done which may mean reapprovals as well as re-estimation of costs and timeline. Only few will put their head on the table, it's a gamble to voice out something was wrong from previous design. At least you know you tried.
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