2
Ubbe
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So the news are in and Apples M1 is actually a pretty mediocre performer. No surprise, the first Power PC G5 was marketed as the worlds fastest computer too. And well, it was not anywhere close to fast in reality.
Apple remains the same, all talk.

Comments
  • 5
    Mediocre performer relative to what? To desktop CPUs with 160W package power? Yeah no shit, Sherlock!
  • 1
  • 3
    Not sure which reviews you been reading but all the ones I checked are pretty positive, way more performance than the previous gen and the pro is nipping at the heel of the 16” i7.

    It quite literally destroys the previous i5
  • 4
    It looks surprisingly good in that benchmark. I wonder what the power draw is.
  • 6
    @Ubbe AMD's 4x00H chips are 45W TDP, so that comparison doesn't even make sense. It's down to the 4x00U chips. The 4800U is very difficult to buy, and 4700U is more realistic.

    The M1 is 27% faster in singlecore, while the 4700U is 6% faster with multicore. That's pretty good actually.
  • 5
    @Ubbe On top of that, it's difficult to buy any AMD laptop at all that doesn't have an extra dGPU with the associated extra power draw.
  • 4
    And here's another rub: The M1 is not a conventional octacore. Insted, it has only four performance cores, and the other four are low-power cores for battery life. Means, a computing benchmark is basically looking at a quadcore.

    The kicker: in multithreading, AMD's octacore 4700U (8C/8T) is only 6% faster than Apple's quadcore.

    Ok, the 4800U offers SMT (8C/16T) and is 35% faster, but since you can't actually buy a 4800U laptop with no dGPU, that's a paper product. Plus that you need applications that scale well to 16 threads in the first place.
  • 4
    M1 in MacBook Air is using passive cooling. Show me other cpu that’s doing it in laptop.

    It’s battery powered cpu so it’s not about performance but about performance to power ratio.
  • 1
    @Fast-Nop dont forget there's also the 4750u 😉 i believe that one is available without dgpu and it still has smt.

    I detest the manufacturers for including the dgpu almost everywhere though. Almost as if theyre getting paid extra when they include it?
  • 1
    @jkommeren The 4750U offers SMT which the 4700U doesn't, but the 4750U has a lower guaranteed base clock (1.7 GHz instead of 2 GHz), which is why the 4750U is only 13% faster in multithread despite SMT.

    The actual reason for the 4750U is that this is the "pro" version of the 4700U and offers some enterprise management features that regular users don't need or would even want.
  • 1
    @Fast-Nop fair enough

    Does look like the Lenovo Yoga Slim 7 14ARE05 (82A2005KMH) has the 4800u without dgpu. And it's in stock 😋 in my country

    Theres also cheaper ones with less storage, this is the 1tb version
  • 1
    @jkommeren I don't think it's in stock - that's at least what Lenovo's website says both for US and Germany. What's in stock is only Intel stuff that nobody wants.

    I hope that Tuxedo actually does get the parts which should be there from tomorrow, in which case I'd get a 4700U Linux notebook that I ordered already six weeks ago.
  • 0
    @Fast-Nop Theres some retailers in the Netherlands that have stock 😉 but im guessing that wont help you lol
    https://megekko.nl/product/0/...

    But yeah stock has been terrible. Selling out like hot cakes.

    Didnt know about the big gap in performance between 4700/4750 and 4800 though.
  • 0
    @jkommeren Wow, buy it because tomorrow, it won't be there anymore!

    If my Aura 15 doesn't pan out because AMD makes nice presentations, but can't actually deliver, then I conclude that APU-only laptops with AMD would be a nice product in theory, but are not for sale in practice.

    I'd like AMD, but I'm already considering Intel's new Tiger Lake-U with iGPU if that's actually available.
  • 1
    @Fast-Nop yeah tiger like is pretty impressive too (but not too cheap)

    But the slim is not for me, i want a 16:10 screen 🤩
  • 1
    Just remember the M1 is not their high end chip (it is in the macbook air). This is their low end laptop chip and yet it destroys the i5 in power consumption and performance and rivals the i7 and i9s from what I saw.

    They will still need to release their high end chip for the 16inch macbook pro and iMacs.
  • 1
    @ddit apples low end costs more than pthers high end.
  • 1
    @Ubbe That's a valid point, especially for the ridiculous surcharges for RAM and SSD. Apple made that shit deliberately incompatible to standard components to prevent price competition.

    On top of that, RAM can't be upgraded. That's OK here because it's integrated inside the M1 CPU package itself, but even if it were external, the LPDDR4-4266 would still need to be soldered. Electrically, it just wouldn't work with a slot. That would be different with DDR4 ram bars, but they don't go up to 4266 speed and need more power.

    However, the soldered and therefore also non-upgradeable SSD is exactly the kind of under-the-hood crap that you can expect from Apple, as well as the glued battery.
  • 0
    @Fast-Nop not just that, having upgradable RAM means that your CPU needs a whole bunch of pins for the RAM connections, which are terrible for power, signal integrity at the high speed at which they run, and also manufacturing. It's a big problem with desktop CPUs right now and one major reason why keeping the same socket for a long time doesn't make any sense. On package RAM is much much easier to do, and Apple's unified memory arch is actually really nice, easy to program for too.

    I disagree with the SSD point. A huge chunk of Apple's userbase doesn't care anyway, and it lets them make their devices thin and more reliable. Apple has the engineering clout to pull off whatever customized IO they want, as long as it works well enough for the Mac userbase. At this point I'd rather think of laptops as stretched phones (because of the manufacturing and architecture advantages) and keep all my customizability needs to my desktop. There's no way you're convincing manufacturers to do something that there's very little demand for and which hinders things that there actually is demand for (look at dropping customizability on new Thinkpads for example even though historically it used to be the best for that).
  • 1
    @RememberMe It was the ability to customise that made the x86 prevail over all other competitors, and there were plenty of them back then.

    I wouldn't choose a laptop that I can't customise and that commands absurd surcharges for standard parts like more SSD space. In fact, my new laptop will have exactly the RAM amount, RAM speed, and the SSD size and brand that I want because it's being BTO.

    It's just about cheaping out (except for LPDDR4 of course). It's hilarious that Apple does this while being in the "premium" segment.

    But yeah, Apple is more of a cult and can get away with anything, just like with their bad cooling solutions that went unfixed for years, or crappy keyboards that were more of a design statement than for actual usage.

    Oh and Thinkpads aren't as good as they used to be anyway, but that was to be expected once they were Chinesed out to Lenovo.
  • 0
    @Fast-Nop where are you getting those price numbers from? My old Thinkpad T480 with very standard and replaceable parts cost me $800 *in a sale*, the M1 MB Air with much better design and performance and whatever compared to the equivalent current Thinkpad costs $1k for regulars, $900 for education. So I would essentially end up paying like $100-200 for the "Apple overhead" which includes things most people care about, like zero brain out of the box usability, a much much better screen, and much better battery life. If I upgraded to 16 GB RAM that's extra $180 more, still cheaper than an equivalently performing thinkpad. And these are first gen, low power models. The advantage of Thinkpads would be double the maximum RAM, which is questionably useful anyway but I'll give it that (and both Thinkpads and Dell XPS get very expensive very fast once you start adding RAM and storage).

    Comparing a MB to a regular laptop doesn't really make sense (and it still does very well anyway) because it's not competing with them, it's targeting the higher end / ultrabook market.

    Thinkpads didn't change because of Chinese-ization, they changed because of shifting priorities. People just want different things now and technology has different tradeoffs, so products change accordingly.
  • 0
    @RememberMe I just looked up the German Apple website. The Macbook Air with M1, 8 GB RAM and 256 GB SSD is already at 1100 EUR. RAM upgrade to 16 GB is 224 EUR. Upgrading the SSD is 224 EUR per additional 256 GB. WTF?!

    A Samsung 970 Evo M.2 NVMe with 1TB costs 133 EUR, that's the actual market price. Even if you take the 970 Pro 1TB, that's still only 311 EUR.
  • 0
    @RememberMe Now, the AMD 4700U laptop with iGPU only I'm waiting for clocks in at 1175 EUR. It's 15.6", though only full-HD resolution. But it's with 2x16GB of DDR4-3200 and 2TB Evo 860 SSD. The battery is 49Wh and fixed with screws instead of Apple-style glue, i.e. can be changed easily. Plus Linux pre-installed.

    The SSD is only SATA, not NVMe, but even with 970 NVMe 2TB, that would only be 64 EUR more if I wanted that. However, NMVe SSDs are more prone to heat issues, that's why I chose SATA, and the performance difference is minor in practice.

    Let's count the better MB Air screen as being worth 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD in deduction, i.e. check the MB Air at 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD. Hmm, that's 1812 EUR! And not even counting the glued battery against the MB Air.
  • 0
    @Fast-Nop that is very strange, 16GB + 1TB shows up at $1439 for me, or 1213 euro. Without education discount that's $1539 or 1298 euro.

    As a better indicator, it cost $540 to upgrade the base model to this, or 455 euro.

    Regional pricing differences?
  • 0
    @RememberMe Probably, yes. Commanding the same price in India as in Germany wouldn't make sense because you'd either lose Indian customers above the profit threshold, or German profit.

    On top of that, there's taxes, customs, WEEE, and operating the stores is also more expensive in Germany (store rent, salaries, even electricity).

    However, I guess also all the other products like free market SSDs are more expensive in Germany, if only because the retailers have higher cost themselves.

    The laptop assembler for my laptop specifically is also located in Germany, so they have the same cost and tax situation.
  • 1
    @Fast-Nop I'm in the US, these are US prices. The equivalent company to Tuxedo here, System76, has a Lemur Pro for $1303 with 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD, with same screen and battery caveats (though it's a really nice machine, a friend has one). So the Apple tax is still around $200-with-benefits.
  • 1
    @RememberMe Aahh the US, yeah that's completely normal that IT stuff is way cheaper in the US than in Europe. It's just that the Apple tax seems to be so much worse over here - in that example, 637 EUR, when setting off the better MB screen against more RAM and SSD on the Aura 15.

    Btw., here an image of that beauty:
  • 1
    @Fast-Nop looking good, I've never seen one of those, let me know what it's like when you get it.

    Yeah I just checked Apple Germany's site, at those prices I probably wouldn't be enthusiastic about them either. It makes a lot more sense with US pricing.
  • 0
    @RememberMe did you include taxes in the US prices?
  • 0
    @electrineer no, I didn't. All the numbers I have including the Lemur are without tax. Tax adds roughly $100 (84 eur).
  • 0
    The world is such a small place. I looked for a laptop to use for my new job. And ended up asking for a Tuxedo 17 inch model. Didn't know about Tuxedo before that. Then I started this thread and Tuxedo features here...
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