I can see why companies hate hiring junior devs. The ones I've worked with have been incompetent. If I was the hiring manager, the only time I'd hire a full fledged junior dev for a full stack role is if they have already built a simple full stack website. Ugh.

So are they really junior at that point?

@HitWRight even then they can be junior. If you build something and it works, but every part is shit, it doesn't help a businesses that needs to scale and grow it.

Ofc mid is supposed to have guidance as well, but I'd hope a mid can build something decent, if not good.

"is if they have already built a simple full stack website"

Woah ... they're hiring folks who haven't?

Even being REALLY green coming out of bootcamp that was not hard... (specifically if I get to do it how I want).

I asked a junior dev to implement something and it was just not good. Not enough though was put into it, and I am disappointed. I wish he put more thought into it. Sigh.

@craig939393 my point was more to the idea, that fullstack actually requires you to know at least 4 quite complex technologies. Html/css/js and something for the backend. I mean you can learn them but it will take at least 1-2 years. So if a person is capable of building a website, I would think he's more than junior.
Unless it's copy-paste-crapping till it works, then the thing is usually Shit and my point should be disregarded :)

@HitWRight I learned it in 3 or 4 months...

Html, CSS, PHP, JavaScript, mysql

I was still a junior and wrote some shit but a year is a long time. I got to a senior level in 3 years. At least senior as a business would define it.

If you're hiring juniors and expecting them to just get on with it and be self sufficient, you're doing it wrong.

Juniors can be fantastic, but they're cheap for a reason - they're a risk. With a bit of training and coaching, some can be incredibly valuable very quickly, and some can even need toning down a bit on the enthusiasm front. I've seen juniors go from fresh grads to competent, skilled devs in a few months sometimes. (You just have to make sure you promote them quickly unless you want them to leave.)

On the other hand, this career isn't for everyone, and some will still be finding that out during their employment as a junior. Some may not get it however hard you try, some may have scraped through and realised it's just beyond them, some just aren't interested.

Those devs can still be shaped into other roles sometimes however. I know a junior who hated dev and considered throwing in the towel on it all - but she's now a very gifted and reliable scrum master.

@craig939393 It's spectacular. Just so you know, not all can learn really fast. I am still having a struggle to be honest. So much things to keep track of. So easy to make mistakes with how many not-so-obvious features the web has.

@HitWRight it is hard. I almost quit just before it clicked.

Wow didn't know the bar was that low. Shit I could do that before I left high school.

Junior. Full stack.

Sounds like a great plan (no)