!rant

The efficiency of every dev stack in the world will never compare to just dropping my folder of php code into a server, with proper configurations, routes envs and everything else into a folder and watch it run.

I a pops shop wants me to build something for them? php

If an enterprise grade with a lot of users comes about? php

I have yet to have a single issue with it as most of you evee poluted, herd ready, mob mentality mfkers want to make believe.

Legit, the language is flawed, but has yet to fuck with me, i have memorized the quirks and fuckups of the language (much like I have done with JS) to know that a lot of you just bandwaggon over shit.

"It DoeSnt hAve proPer geNerics"

boom, deployed a form to a customer for his site, charged $2k for a one day job with no issue. But go ahead, setup an entire fucking pipeline of dependencies, a .net app and/or an entire bs app in node or rails(which I love btw) or an entire fuckState centric app in Go that gets messier the more you look at it and it would not be as easy or as simple to deploy.

Legit, in my entire career, nothing makes my life simpler for the web.

Yeah cool. Tell me how simple it is when you have a team working on the code, and everyone needs to know how to run it locally without encountering bugs due to inconsistent development environment, how to get their fixes on the server, how to let customer test & approve changes before they go live... Tell me how dumping the folder on the server works out when you have 5 people buzzing you to deploy their changes every 10 minutes, and how fucking dandy it is when two of them try to deploy different versions at the same time.

Sure, enjoy your small agency / freelance work, what will you do in 10 years when you need to upgrade your career to something bigger?

Now try to imagine your task is to maintain someone elses mess made ten years ago.

Hm, in a nutshell you're describing a deployment phase.

I like PHP.

Composer is e.g. a good dependency manager.

I think PHP got a lot of undeserved hate, I like it.

But please. Don't undermine the effort of getting rid of it's bad rep.

PHP requires a webserver setup, it requires a secure connection to push the folder, it requires security application and server wise.

Your "let's drop da folder and be done with it" sounds exactly like the kind of setup that's part of how PHP got it's bad rep...

Deployment / Pipeline / CI is cluster fuck, yes. It's a process, it's complex and one can make many mistakes.

But it's goal should not be limited to build, test, run - it should harden, too.

OWasp dependency analysis, static code analysis and so on.

I can partially understand the rant... But exactly these setups got PHP it's bad rep.

@hitko it is simple tho. If it isn’t, your organization is doing something majorly wrong. Simple as that.

I agree PHP gets more hate than it should, but isn't just dropping some random code into a folder and watching it run pretty much outlawed everywhere?

I thought that kinda thinking died out in the early 2000's. All someone then has to do to execute untrusted code is work out how to get a PHP file in your folder and bam. (Not a problem limited to PHP of course, a bunch of languages used to take the same flawed approach, but it's been a long while since I've seen that approach recommended in production.)

@hitko I work in an enterprise setting in which I am the head of my department as well as managing multiple dev stacks, from Java to .NET application, Python and even Clojure in between.

PHP just so happens to be one of the technologies that we use, and that we use well.

Miss me with that elitist shit.

@SuspiciousBug I love it when mfkers talk to me like if I was fresh out of uni :D

@IntrusionCM Even on an entire docker configuration pipeline, considering a base LAMP stack, or whichever other environment that you like. Aren't we simply adding files to a folder in which a project is contained? My point is not "grab whatever from so, put in on a php file and you're good man!"

Seems to me that a lot of people here thought of it that way. My point is that not every solution on the net requires and overly complex environment to live within. And that by the time one dev is finished setting up something, I am already done. With a proper environment, stack configured, db ready and deployed.

@IntrusionCM also, consider that I have said in multiple other rants that I have seen and even work with some of the reasons why people hate PHP.

But to me it doesn't matter. I am not a crAftSmaN or a CoDE arTiSan. I am an engineer, and a mercenary, it can be the worst pos spaghetti codebase in the world(I still have a couple of these floating around) I just want to get paid, and paid I have been.

You are not going to see me banging my head against the wall. Even then, I do have an entire setup for how we do the projects that we do in PHP in my department. I must say that I am quite fond of it, keeps evolving.

I do understand what you mean.

@AtuM *plop*

@AlmondSauce Oh most definitely. I made an oversimplification of it really. I believe in best practices, like using proper version control, a dedicated ci/cd pipeline etc. This was basically going back to the idea of how easy it can be compared to other items.

As @IntrusionCM said, just dropping a folder is indeed one of the reasons why php gets the bad rep.

Sure go on with "echo debug 1"

PHP was shit 15 years ago and it's still shit. The ONLY dev plateform worse than PHP is JavaScript with node.

@NoToJavaScript while I realise I likely can’t change your mind, nor care to, I also beg to differ.

At least since 7.2 I’d rank PHP as the best platform/toolset for web dev. It may have been shit 15 years ago, but it most certainly isn’t that now. I cannot comprehend what logical reasons you would have to state otherwise.

@100110111 I do: herd mentality. For each tool there is there is always someone complaining about it intensely. We used to have a dev here that was a compiler designer. If it was not C or C++ then whatever you used was shit. Everything. Java, C#, Haskell, F#, Ocaml, R, Python, JS, Ruby. It didn't matter, it was shit. Funny enough he did not mind PHP, that always gave me a chuckle because even I have complaints about PHP.

Some people will just not change their mind, and that is fine, my issue is how much they won't stfu about it.

@100110111 It's simple when you use the tools which make it simple. It's not simple if you have the mentality that you don't need a screwdriver because every screw you've hammered in so far still holds, and you can always get new screws if you ever need to replace something.

@hitko I’m not quite sure what you are trying to say with that metaphor

@AtuM and you are not wrong. I am not hoping for everyone to automagically like everything that comes across them.

There is a huge difference in not liking an environment for specific reasons, and not liking it because some dude wrote something on the internet and found a lot of people repeating over and over what they said.

I see this all over the place with all technologies. Hatred by means of ignorance.

@100110111 Google "law of the hammer" or "Birmingham screwdriver"

@AleCx04

I think I know what you want to express, that the deployment can be easily done in a simplified way...

I agree. Most devs / admins tend to do complexity instead of simplicity, especially when they lack experience and / or "character" (e.g. I can live with people calling me dumb when I do quick n dirty deployments like this, some others would e.g. worry about their reputation / honor too much)

As long as someone took the time and did setup the environment properly up - environment meaning the server and it's services like database / webserver and so on - it's fine and dandy.

Nothing's worse than an fucked up environment.

What -/ how the environment is provided - I don't give a fuck.

I can write stuff e.g. directly via nano remote, local with push e.g. via SCP - don't care.

It can be a VM, bare machine, docker deployment - don't care.

But - and that's my point - the time must be invested to setup the environment right. :)

SSH, Sysctl -/ ULimits, HTTP Setup, TLS if necessary, Security, Service intercommunication should be proper (e.g. HAProxy and NGINX, both should use same settings for e.g. TLS) and so on.

How the stuff is then added to the environment... I don't care.

I e.g. use in case of emergency docker cp on a live server without hesitation, ram the necessary files in the docker container, restart and be done.

If it's broken and doesn't work, more harm cannot be done.

Simple, efficient and fast.

Some people really dislike this approach, but in my opinion quick and dirty solution is better (even if it's try and error) than trying to stick to deployment and a fixed process.

@IntrusionCM exactly. This is why I smile when I see that your name is present in a post or a rant, you get me man ;___;

@hitko yes, I understood perfectly well that you were referring to the law of the instrument. However, it feels out of place in the context of what has been discussed here.