Seeing some jokes about AI and deterministic if/else sort of logic... in a really sleep deprived state I start to wonder - if we are able to make AI that REALLY begins to pass as intelligent / self aware / sentient and imitates us.... and it spawns from deterministic lower level logic that has just grown from an uncontrollably large amount of inputs and complications... will we just end up convincing ourselves that we don't actually have free will either? Maybe we just have an amazing natural data lake. :-/

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    You cannot deny randomness inside neurons and their artificial counterparts.
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    @irene which is the other variant of "no free will".

    The deeper counter argument is that we are talking about models of what's going on, and the whole point of scientific models is to eliminate the subject from the equation.

    Well yeah no shit, if you don't put something into a model, you're not going to see it. However, the map isn't the territory.
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    @Fast-Nop well, okay. Randomness is just randomness, not a feat of will. I meant mainly that its not deterministic.
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    @irene It isn't?
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    @Root quantum randomness makes it unpredictable 🤷
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    @irene Only if neurons actually utilize that.
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    @Root okay. Fine. Not everything macroscopic is influenced my nanoscopic. 🤷 Well, I'm tangled in the thoughts.
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    Aside from the random != free will part, a lot of 'random' in AI (and maybe in human intelligence as well?) starts to bring to mind butterfly effect sort of things... maybe looking at seeding in basic random CS functions has spoiled that a little and makes it seem like a lot that is 'random' is just a certain level of abstraction on a lot of seemingly unconnected tiny inputs.
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    The real question imo is, does it matter? If science reveals tomorrow "humans dont have free will." would you live your life differently? Or by definition of "no free will" could you even live differently?
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    I think the question suits better a neuroscientist. Honestly, the moment we will understand fully how our brain works, we will make a human-level AI. So far we have to create that of a simple worm.
    In my opinion, deep down in our collective mind is the fear that we are just meat machines. Given the relevant neurochemical stimuli, we act no differently than our creations. Will that matter in the extremely long-term? From a nihilistic point of view, we already know that our universe has an expiration date, albeit we will not exist to witness it. Then you have the theory that we are simulation programmes. Or consider the teachings of any religion about the Divine and the afterlife. Free will could be an illusion. If so, does that make life less worthy experiencing it? Would rather remain blissful and ignorant or would rather have the knowledge that you don't hold any power over your actions? Just some thoughts before putting my brain into sleep mode.
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    @Qaldim A neuro scientist is in no better position to understand how consciousness works than other scientists. Just like a quantum physicist is unlikely to explain you why your ball pen doesn't write when you need it.

    Also, "the brain" is already a model. Therefore, consciousness is not in the brain - it's the other way around, the brain is in the consciousness.

    We will never understand consciousness because no system can contain a complete description of itself.

    If we ever, probably by accident, should make an AI that matches us, we will understand it as little as we understand ourselves.
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    The randomness argument reminds me of an argument I had with my ex, if it's possible to generate a "real" random number.

    I'm just thinking, if it becomes conscious then it's not really AI anymore since there's nothing artificial about it. Surpassing human intelligence means not relying on the data that human feeds into them.
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    @Qaldim for me its not a fear at all. Im of the opinion that we really are just meat based processors. I dont find it any less fascinating for it.

    For your argument that AI isnt artificial once its conscious, I dont agree. If we made it, its artificial no matter how it evolved to achieve it. As far as I can tell you can only classify things as natural if their origin doesnt involve humans. Artificiality is our own concept after all.
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    @Qaldim arent we meat machines? 🤔
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    Also i agree with POV that consiousness is just a weird side effect of brain development and is just one of the processes running on our wetware. And it only continues to exist because it was evolutionary beneficial to have it, otherwise it have been died out already.

    In three words: consiousness is a glitch
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