Just had a Mac user in a Linux chat. Guy was trying to setup MySQL, yada yada yada... Turns out that the guy didn't know what a PATH is.
Let that sink in for a moment. A developer, with a hipster MacBook that probably cost him several grand.. but doesn't know what a PATH is.

Please kill me. 🙂🔫

That's... Very painful

Installing most dev software on a mac requires modifying path iirc?

@epse I think so anyway.. Never used a Mac here, but the file paths he gave in that chat makes me think that Apple really turned Unix into a complete clusterfuck.. I wouldn't want to use it for development anyway. My system should be able to locate my stuff on its own.

This is what happens with Macbooks (didn’t drop it)

That's to be expected the current trend is to not let the use see where his files or applications are or even what they really are. Eventually people will emerge that don't know basic concepts.

He's on the very PATH to /dev/null 😏

@Pickman yes and it's annoying

@Pickman "Digital natives" right there.

I think you meant to say "probably cost his parents several grand"...

At uni I had to compose an A4 instruction manual/crib sheet to tell all the 1st year students with "bank of mum and dad" ultrabooks how to install the course software off of the DVD-ROMs it came from the library on. No optical drive in an ultrabook, is there.... *sigh*

Former macOS user here (now on Arch), and honestly I can't fathom how one could do dev work, maybe apart from just using Xcode for macOS and iOS development, without at least having a basic understanding of the PATH variable... Even though Homebrew for an example handles it automatically, it still explains on its own webpage how it works with those terms IIRC, so that's just depressing... And really, macOS is in my view only slightly fucked up UNIX, not entirely fucked up (yet), I mean it's really the libraries on top of it that make it different

I walk on paths all the time, what a dumbo

@jdebs Hahaha, nailed it! That was actually the guy's username! 🤣

i have empathy with beginners that seting PATH could be intimidating. Using vim/nano for the first time and messing with the system and having the feeling of insecurity "shit i could fuck this up"

@heyheni but.. it's a developer! It's a bloody dev! Like with a user I understand that (although as a Linux user, you're likely to come into contact with it at some point as well). But for a developer? How is that even... *sigh*

How loosely are we using the word dev here? Was he a working professional with years of experience? Then ye, the dude should know. If its some dude that is just starting well shit man, give the poor sod a break haha

Why kill you? Let's all kill that fucking MBP moron. Let's take turns at stabbing him,

@AleCx04 Dude, even kid gamers know what fucking PATH is.

@Condor No, it's still solidly UNIX in its design, just with some strange behaviors with specific things like job triggers. That guy had no idea what he was doing. All path behavior is the same as Linux to the dot. (pun intended)

@telephantasm i still find it kind of a stretch man. I feel that this is giving people way too much importance

Ignorance and stupidity are two different things. Not knowing about path is ignorance...

Paying far too much for for a Unix Dev machine with keyboard issues is silly bordering on stupid though.

@RustyCookie I think @Condor is mentioning the device because it's like buying the most advanced expensive surf board and not being competent enough for basic usage.

that has nothing to do with the brand his laptop his

@RustyCookie @arcioneo People who buy shoddy, overpriced hardware because there's a logo on it just can't be too bright.

@hjk101 I like the surfboard analogy, haha. But yes you're absolutely right. Macs have their purpose in life, otherwise devs wouldn't buy them in droves. And I'd definitely like my development workstation to be hassle-free Unix unlike some Linux distros and hardware configurations *ahem Arch and Nvidia*.. so yeah. It's kind of weird that MacOS wouldn't automatically put applications into the PATH, but more than likely that was PEBKAC. I don't use Macs so no idea to be honest ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@Condor You can't put *apps* directly into the PATH, since applications on macOS are actually bundles (essentially a glorified folder with an extension tacked on) and not a single binary executable (of course, the binary executable is contained in the bundle, and if you know the path inside the bundle, you can execute it like any other UNIX binary in the terminal if you feel like it)... So effectively, symlinks would have to be made between every single binary executable inside every single bundle and the /usr/local/bin/ folder for instance.

Of course, regular UNIX binaries exist on macOS though, and can be used like on any other UNIX-like system

@chilledfrogs Ah, that makes sense yeah. Thanks for explaining! From what I understand it's not quite how I'd build a Unix system (if I were to build one) as I like *everything* to be standard in /bin directories without having to worry about symlinks.. but that at least makes the Mac guy's question about the PATH a little bit more reasonable..? I mean the Windows PATH is not too dissimilar and I find that kind of confusing as well - well other than the basics of it but editing it is kind of unwieldy. Meh.. maybe it was a combination of system and user.

@Condor Little sidenote after having reread your comment: I personally never had any issues with Arch hardware configuration, especially due to the rather complete wiki, do what issues might you have had with that?

As for Nvidia, as Linus Torvalds says so concisely and elegantly: "fuck you, Nvidia"

@Condor Kinda, yes, but as I said considering he's a dev, chances are incredibly low he never used UNIX tools on his Mac which are therefore invoked with the standard PATH method, so I'm still very surprised and a bit depressed about that 😅

@Condor Now, even though it doesn't follow UNIX standards at all, actually that system has its merits (installation of most macOS apps: copy and paste the app bundle to the Applications folder); in fact, Gobo Linux seems to have come up with a similar idea somewhat independently, Linux style ;)

In the case of macOS, most of those UNIX standard deviations come from NeXTstep which is in turn inspired by BSD (not the filesystem changes though), I don't know where Jobs came up with those ideas back in the day though 😅

As with many things Apple, they actually have some very good ideas, but since they pretend they're the only ecosystem in the entire fucking market, no one adopts it as standard (iWork and app bundles, as examples off the top of my head)...

@Condor never had a Mac myself either. Wanted to buy one when the Air was new. It was a third more expensive here then in the US (I thought the dollar price was a good indication, ridiculous uplift in Europe) and ay the time you couldn't do full screen. Bought a mostly Linux compatible 13 inch laptop and never looked back. Helped some Mac users though.

We have a developer that uses a new MacBook Pro that is how I know about the keyboard issues. I use Linux but the rest uses Windows with docker (and we Unix users fix the permissions/case/line ending issues Windowsers poop out from time to time).

Besides developing for iOS and OS X and some other cases you need tools only available on OS X I don't see why a Dev would prefer a Mac over a Linux machine. Linux is usually the production OS and while containers and VM make it possible to develop on any major OS they also run smoother on Linux.

What's a path? 🤔

@Techno-Wizard The "same" as in:

* some paths are not accessible by root (SIP)

* case insensitivity

* you need to grant full disk access for 'private parts'

* RPATH might have some differences, too, don't recall right now

More fun to come with Catalina!

@phorkyas 1 and 3: security + not everyone is a developer and understands what they could seriously screw up. 2: That can actually be changed, but even so, case is still preserved. Just can't have the only name difference be case. 4: That's valid. Mostly because of the freebsd and NS foundations.

@chilledfrogs Well, regarding Arch I was mostly talking about the distro's issues. The price of bleeding edge pretty much. Latest and greatest, but stuff breaks. For a sysadmin like yours truly, every breakage even when it takes only 10 minutes to fix, adds up to the heap of systems to maintain and reduces scalability. That's essentially why Debian and the likes are so popular for servers - they hardly ever break.
Regarding Gobo Linux, I've never tried that one yet but NixOS seems to be one of the distros that does this as well. Apparently they go with an ID of some sort for each application, allowing them to also install multiple versions of the same application. On top of that they are built with a declarative approach, a single config file with what needs to be done and the system "just gets it done". Quite impressive! I wonder how well it'd go as a replacement in servers for Ansible and the likes.

@SecFreak $PATH. Now of course my trade does make it seem rather obvious to me anyway that this should be known. Heck, for any command-line tools installed outside of Chocolatey I had to interact with the Path variable there. But as a developer, sure on Linux it's just "done in the background" but from what I hear about MacOS' design in that regard anyway it seems much more Windows-like than Linux-like so I'd guess that every development tool installed there would also require one to poke around with it... Then again, I don't use Macs.

@sergeyBrin Louis Rossman: *Heavy Breathing*

@Condor I do agree about Arch being on the bleeding edge and Debian being stable as fuck, personally I haven't had any real breakages, but admittedly I'm not sure I would use it for a server either myself 😅 even though Debian occasionally pisses me off with its extreme stability (like when I want to install a cool app for user use and I realize it's really out of date...)

Indeed, I consider that Gobo Linux isn't exactly server-stable yet, but it might be getting there... One can hope, since it also can perfectly support multiple versions of a same program with the way how it works (which greatly simplifies the core filesystem structure, which is a plus).

Concerning NixOS, I should really check it out sometime, the config file structure seems a bit weird to me who barely did any system administration in his life 😅

@chilledfrogs Well I have to say, NixOS' configuration file sure means *a lot* to a sysadmin :3 that way deployments are little more than placing a single file. That'd improve scalability quite a lot! Anything where the system can be made to take care of itself is a blessing for me pretty much.

@JFK422 :-(

oh I know a guy like this.. but he's actually worst. He didn't even known what homebrew is until I showed him...

We all started somewhere, and because of how this industry is setup, there is no “standard” in place like mathematics causing us all have the same foundational understanding. Some people are jumping straight into SQL without understanding relations.. some are jumping straight into Java without understanding any other programming.. some people are jumping straight into embedded C and C++ without any true embedded hardware circuits and register knowledge..only abstractions from aurdinos and raspberry pies.

Until there becomes a standard that everyone getting into the industry follows so everyone has a baseline foundation there will always be surprises around every corner causing you to think .. how did that developer get this far without knowing that...

Just food for thought to consider next time someone doesn’t know something you or a majority deem common knowledge... no standard common foundation means no common knowledge can guarantee exist

I didn't knew what was that until I read what is "environment variables" are.

@Pickman Ye, File managers be like Documents instead of
/home/user/Documents