20
junon
45d

Sometimes I see advice given to others that is either clearly wrong or even dangerous, but it's not socially acceptable to call them out on it because 'everyone is entitled to their opinion'.

Yes, you're right. I'm entitled to my opinion based on doing this for 20 years and facing your exact, usually "junior" situation a hundred times. You did a code camp earlier this year and still think JSX is part of the Ecmascript standard.

There is a difference, and not being able to point it out without being scolded for being "entitled" (ironically) is slowly draining me of any interest in helping others.

How the fuck do you cope with this?

Comments
  • 3
    cc @Root because you're basically my devRant clone it seems.
  • 4
    also cc @fast-nop because you're usually correct in your comments and have to argue about it even then.
  • 7
    Tell someone the fact on a sentence, do not explain yourself. Offer to explain more. Now it's up to them to ask you, if they don't ask you they would have never listened anyway.

    I don't have 20 years of experience, I have 3 xD however I read tech books and try to study every day, and my colleagues are way below the average, so I have still experienced this..

    Most devs I have worked with seem to want to tick boxes, tick the 'it works' box, tick the 'we do PRs box', 'its deployed box, tick a box that says they did what makes them look good - regardless of whether what they did makes any sense (see just approving a pr without reading it). Those people do not want your help.
  • 1
    In terms of programming "wrong " is quite a bad term because it gives little information about the actual problem.

    There is always a better way to describe it.
  • 9
    @wiwe2210 Saying "JSX is part of the Ecmascript standard" is unequivocally 'wrong'. There's no better way to describe it without mincing words.

    Telling someone they are wrong needs to be destigmatized.
  • 2
    @craig939393 Right, exactly. It just seems like nobody cares about the "science" bit of computer science, or the "engineering" bit in "software engineering".
  • 7
    That's part of the whole snowflake, safe spaces, and "muh feewings!!11" shit with people who have never left kindergarden.

    Depending on whether I'm dealing with co-workers, PMs, customers, or contractors, I adjust myself accordingly.

    Luckily, co-workers are easy going, and we work mostly by consensus. PMs don't care too much about tech details anyway. Customers get gentle treatment even if they're total whackos because they bring in the money.

    Contractors are the only ones where I sometimes see real junior crap, but I don't scold them because management has decided that we have to work with them, and my job is to make the best of the situation. On the upside, they do listen.
  • 3
    @Fast-Nop Thanks for the response :)

    > they do listen.

    That's the key to making it work.
  • 7
    If it's someone you're directly responsible for, enforce your viewpoint, as you're responsible for the outcome. If not, then give some friendly advice and if they ignore it, let it be.

    Problem is, from a junior's perspective, they've no idea if you're talking wisdom, or you're just pushing a meaningless opinion on them. Unfortunately the latter happens often, there's a lot of overinflated egos in this industry - and while I'm sure that's not you, it means you can't just recommend a junior listens to everything everyone says - a large proportion will be bollocks.
  • 3
    I was blessed to only work with juniors and people that are open minded and ready to listen and usually they also do their research before committing to a solution or asking me for advice so I don't know what I would do... I guess I'd just explain why they are wrong in a calm manner... if it devolves into a fight I fight but usually you can pull out your phone and google the evidence needed to support your claims and then look at them stumble into a corner and try to defend an argument that's already lost or admit they were wrong...
  • 5
    I don't. I speak my mind. I practice "radical I don't give a fuck about your wrong opinion or feelings about that wrong opinion." I'll meet them at the whiteboard cul-de-sac any day of the week.
  • 3
    This is probably as old as the internet itself.. see http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/... - the entire document is a goldmine :)
  • 3
    I'm not really sure JSX is a 'entitled to an opinion' type thing.

    Like who they would vote for ... yeah whatever.

    If someone is straight wrong, they're wrong and you say so. Maybe carefully, but you say it in some way.
  • 1
    @junon "like negativity totally kills peoples vibes dude!"
  • 1
    @Wisecrack lmao that hit the tone exctly right.
  • 5
    I’ve thought about this for awhile. I agree with some of the answers above, but I think the root of the problem is elsewhere.

    I think we conflate “civilized” with “nice.” We mustn’t always be nice in order to be civil, nor is a civilized society unconditionally nice. Civilized means the ability to work together towards common goals, respecting one another (when deserved), etc. It does not mean allowing someone to make things worse just because contradicting them might make them angry. Being unconditionally nice to everyone isn’t the answer. It’s actually kind of destructive because it gives sanction to all behavior, attitudes, beliefs, etc.

    Nazis, bolsheviks, con artists, witch hunters, geocentrics, etc. deserve no tolerance. Everything they do is destructive.

    For the rest, we should actively try to correct misinformation and help them learn and understand. We were all newbies once, after all. But if they instead double down on incorrect or nonsensical arguments, it’s perfectly okay to be cruel. These kinds of people (much like the former list) often refuse listen or learn anyway, so running them off is probably beneficial.
  • 5
    I really like @junon’s comment of “telling someone they are wrong needs to be destigmatized.” I think that’s spot-on, especially when applied to society rather than just one on one interactions. But that’s how it starts, yeah? That and getting rid of this focus on self esteem, political correctness, victim mentality, and the whole culture of taking offense at every little thing.

    If you are wrong, so what? Learn from your mistake and strive not to repeat it. Don’t have a meltdown over it like my five year old and insist you are correct despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. That is called being insane. If you act like this, where your internal world overrules the external and you keep trying the same thing despite it never changing anything, you are literally insane. And with some of these people, it really shows. Never go full insane.
  • 1
    @Root I think you nailed it. :)
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