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@Hazarth abortion is 100%
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@kiki depends,
a) the psychology of the mother changes a bit during pregnancy,
b) what if your partner gets someone pregnant and they decide to keep it?
c) you don't really want to be *that* girl that did 12 abortions in 12 years.
I mean your choice. But monogamy doesn't exist just because some priest decided it should. Sex has one role, which is reproduction. Humans enjoy it a lot so we found ways around it but none of them are bulletproof, because thats not how its supposed to work. It's a patch over a feature the client wanted. And polygamy may or may not end up breaking you apart anyway, It's not a silver bullet you just discovered, its just one option. -
@JsonBoa I don't need relatives just because blood. Without change and experiments, there will be nothing. Good things have to be achieved through risks and uncertainty.
Also, smart people understand each other. If someone denies the theory and their arguments are only in the realm of "it's a sin", I don't need such people in my life. Being close to someone is proven through hard times, not through passively living a life doing nothing. In hard times of uncertainty I need allies, not those who will deny things because of religion or other magical cargo-cult beliefs. -
@kiki ah, the good ol' "I don need your bigotry shit in my life, get lost".
Worked well for my favourite uncle. Not sure if I would have the steel in my veins, though. -
@Hazarth it's not a silver bullet, but just the right bullet for the job. Should you read something scientifically literate, you should know that neurological changes in pregnancy only kick in on certain stage, not right from the start. Apart from that, saying that neurobiological processes always win is equal to denying free will, e.g. the mindset that is proven to be false.
On *that* girl though — why? Because "abortion bad"? -
@Hazarth @JsonBoa you need to look at my rants to realize the background, that with my mental illness I only had two choices — suicide or establishing active measures to make my life happy and productive. I had nothing to lose. I did not commit suicide not because I had no energy to buy a gun, but because even in hard depression I thought about it with an open mind and decided to live. I decided that too much beauty will be lost otherwise. I remembered that once upon a time I created a sense that is beyond me, my life and my disorder.
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@Hazarth lifelong monogamy does not work even with your theory
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I've seen few people doing it, so I don't know nothing about it. I thing that you're right, you and your partner, if it makes you feel good, so go a head and enjoy this relationship. I never did it, but for a a while I wished to, the natural human behavior is polygamist, being monogamist make us have a lot of concern and bounds. I'm "kind of hot" too and I had a lot of relationships, and at the end someone will always suffer, early or later, with jealousy (any way, that's end it's just my opinion)
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@kiki no, not because "abortion bad" Im pro abortions. Because its somewhat of a social suicide and bit draining on the body and mind
Also, please tell me more about how we have free will and how it was proven wrong that we don't, I'd love to hear that
@iiii
Well It's not a "theory" I just stated things that can go wrong, and then clearly said that polygamy just isn't a "silver bullet". I didn't say im against, I just don't appreciate people glorifying one option over others and saying how its the "next level" when it really isn't, its just different and and brings its own baggage. That's like saying "spaces are next level from tabs" or "Java is next level from C++" or whatever.
Boils down to personal preference and situation.
So what the rant says is:
"mongamy old and bad, polygamy next level!"
When in reality it is:
"I just like this one better because of my personal life"
It reads like a Polygon article -
@Hazarth Oh, the "matter of taste" argument. The universal go-to argument of people when they cease to actually expose the flaws with logic :)
You still never said anything on the matter, you showed neither arguments against polygamy, nor any experimental evidence that proves that polygamy is not viable. -
@iiii it's the first time I have to agree with you. Историческая хуйня!
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@Hazarth here's the challenge for you:
- Abortion is not a "social suicide" unless your inner circle dictates it is. Any neurobiological explanation of abortions being inherently bad for mental health? What's the mechanism here? Is it linked to serotonin or dopamine?
- There are countless families destroyed by "cheating", to the point when we have a word for it. Can you prove this statistical evidence flawed?
- Males are naturally polygamist. Any evidence disproving it? Or maybe neocortex that makes us aware of ourselves can overpower the mammal brain momentarily with some mechanism, given that mammal brain has way more neurons and is way heavier? Any description of that mechanism, any evidence it exists? Or any evidence proving that neocortex has more neurons than mammal brain?
- The main argument against free will is based on Laplace's demon. It ceased to exist right when probability appeared in physics. Do you have an argument to bring Laplace's demon back to relevance? -
@kiki
- Good job building a strawman, but personal preference is a valid thing. Unless you declare yourself the arbitor of what's good for everyone... I doubt you want to go that route.
- Im not against polygamy, Im against not disclosing all relevant info in what I can only call a "hype article" just because It's viable doesn't prove that It's actually in any shape or form better
- your inner circle only matters until you start desiring new connections. i didn't say abortion is bad for mental health directly. Im saying socially it becomes less acceptable the more of then you have, because you move from "my choice" to "I don't care and have no responsibility for my actions" that's what I call social suicide, you make new social connections harder and that is proven to be bad for mental state
- cheating is just people like you meeting people like me. Its a common problem, not just monogamy, because it takes 2 to form a couple... Sexual preference is a selector here -
- Humans have way to many exceptions in our behaviours to just say "males are polyamorous, the end"... Biologically, mostly, yes.. socially? We're all over the place, we're complex and best we know its economically most efficient to form relations with one partner, at least for a man, I don't really want to take care of 40 different families I would accidentally spawn. Emotionally, I don't care about other women, I found the one I love and that's where my sight got narrowed down. I don't need sex or anything else from Others because all I need I already have with her and I would do anything to provide the same back.
Laplace's demon applies to particle physics. You're not a particle.. and we know that macro doesn't behave like the quantum, presumably because of all the Interactions that collapse all states all the time on this scale, but I don't know. Secondly "random" isn't really free will either. More entropy doesn't mean you made a "choice"... -
@Hazarth thanks to my friends in the field of bioinformatics and psychiatry, my theory works as expected. It is more aligned with our biological nature, so yes, it's better than monogamy.
Monogamy is fighting with your nature, and polygamy is listening to it. You don't need to be a genius to see that those options aren't equal. One is healthier than the other.
Abortion to some extent is also opposing your biological nature, but sustaining monogamy is a hard, continuous battle you have to fight, and abortion is done momentarily and doesn't require a sustained effort.
Of course, you can practice monogamy if that's your preference, because preferences are valid. -
@Hazarth About free will and quantum brain. Let's leave it because it's essentially Penrose vs Hawking, and I don't understand it. Maybe you do, but I don't.
I'm a huge advocate of living the life you want to live no matter the opinion of your circle, your relatives and strangers from the internet. You by all means are free to practice monogamy.
I just feel annoyed because I did something spectacular and wanted to share my knowledge, but more conservative people say that my theory is no better than the status quo that destroys families. I want to clarify that cheating is not responsible for 100% of broken marriages, but nonetheless its part is there.
I'll just feel a little better if several years after, when you want to cheat on your partner, you remember that it's not the reason to feel bad about yourself, and you can save the relationship you worked hard to build. All words aside, this is my ultimate goal. -
@kiki
More alligned with nature != Objectively better
That's a ridiculous notion you couldn't even begin to hope to defend.
Not to mention how would you even define what's natural and what isn't? One could argue thay anything a human does, no matter what it is, is natural, because we're literally the thing you're observing... If you were an outside observer, everything we do is what we do naturally to you...
On the other hand you could start looking at chimpanzees, because that's the closest we can even observe, which means you decide to ignore millenia of evolution as "natural" but ok, under that assumption you start saying that It's natural for humans to fling shit at each other. Which it might, but I'd rather not
So middle of the road option, cherry pick whatever you think represents the manority of the population based on smaller observations, in which case I guess xenophobia and racism is pretty natural evolutionary speaking and thus objectively better hmmm -
@kiki sorry that I have annoyed you. I on the other hand felt annoyed that your post sells the notion of polygamy as objectively better, ignoring completely that it also has drawbacks, even going as far as saying It's the solution to cheating essentially, implying monogamy is absolutely to blame for that alone and all marriages that do fail, fail because it was monogamous and not because one of the partners was an asshole. And by extension that feels that if Im polygamous, Im automatically wrong and will end up in a failed marriage simply because I didn't want to fuck other women for fun.
Same feeling like reading something on polygon about how all gamers are toxic for example, or that atheists will suffer in hell forever.
I don't buy it. You can't completely ignore the fact that people don't just cheat because they want to fool around and can't... It's usually a much deeper communication issue and the person that cheated probably just found someone else they fell in love with... -
My issue is simple really. You reduced the entire theory of relationahips to "people should really just fuck more and no one will divorce then" as if that protected you from having a bad relationship...
I don't mind polygamy, and if it works for you, great! But you're naive if you think you cracked some big existential problem and are thus safe from ending badly. And even worse crime in my book, you preach it as if it was fact.
It's shit like that in the world that really grinds me gears to a halt. I guess that's why we don't usually get along ^^; -
@Hazarth you don't have to. There is a narrow-scope problem of "I really want ONS with this person, but I also love my significant other". Albeit narrow, this problem is big and devastating. There is no solution to this in monogamy, and I've just solved it.
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@EpicofGilgamesh you can't live with a person with aspergers (myself) and manage to hide how you really feel for a single day, let alone weeks or months.
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If you're feeling restrained in a monogamous relationship, then yeah go for polyamorousity.
Personally I don't feel that need and just wants to satisfy a single person.
It's funny seeing more and more open relationships, to the point where I'm the odd one for not being interested in others..
I have had partners that had that need, fine by me really. As long as they're open and honest with me then I don't feel betrayed.
Some evidence even points at it being natural and an evolutionary advantage to have multiple sexual partners. -
@EpicofGilgamesh I was in one. It was my proposal and I was not concerned because of that. 🤷♂️
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@iiii don't you guys feel jealous seeing you partner bonk another dude,
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@EpicofGilgamesh not really, If I have vetted him or her myself.
It's always interesting to hear what she liked, so I can improve :-) -
@EpicofGilgamesh nope, I did not. And we've had talks about encounters with others
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Sir, you are my personal hero, it was like reading myself.
Sadly, I haven't been as lucky as you since I haven't met a single girl who is not a freaking jealousy monster.
Could you give me some advice on how did you start this kind of the relationship? like, who proposed it, did it start like that? do you both wear condoms with others? -
@Hazarth that is an issue very easy to avoid dude
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@kiki I mean, of course having surgery to avoid those issues is easy, come on engineers, is not that hard
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@kiki Damn, I was praising your words and way to think, now when I read about your depressive episodes, well, looks like more than freedom, you just looked for an escape.
I still dream reading something like this from someone who realized it from a normal regular life, who went through a phase of deep thinking and came with this, not to escape depression :( -
@Hazarth dude, abortion is not the topic here, keep the topic consistent
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@EpicofGilgamesh same questions here, how to start talking about it
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@arcioneo oh.
First of all, thanks, glad you liked it.
No, this things can’t let you “escape” depression. Both major depressive disorder and bipolar disorder are heavy, serious disorders that can’t be “escaped”. Think of it as of hepatitis or tuberculosis. They are treated with serious medication, and no mindset or thought process can help you feel better. I’m taking quetiapine and lamotrigine among other pills, both are very serious and powerful medicines with scary side effects.
Now, about free relationships. I see concepts of “man” and “woman” to be inferior than a concept of “human”. If you’re not a human in this framework, you resort to merely playing your gender model. But when you get a solid, non-contradictory worldview, you ascend into being a “human”. -
@arcioneo That being sad, both me and my partner are humans. We did this because we found a solid basis, and we were right. If I or they decide something, no emotions can affect that. Concept is king — pure, perfect.
I found a way to perfectly separate emotional and rational in a sustainable, harmonious way. I explain it in my piece called “The Kiki Manifesto”.
This was perhaps the most powerful and beautiful concept I ever created, with an influence comparable to when I disowned my mother (read my rant on that). That two things alone reduced my anxiety in a way that cannot be described enough. -
@arcioneo what are you talking about? pregnancy is a natural consequence of sex and abortion is a valid option in today's society. If we're talking about free sex with whoever you want then pregnancy is by extension possible and by extension of that abortions are on topic because they are a real problem that can occur and even end that relationship. It is 100 % on topic of relationships whenever any kind of sex is involved, more so when it includes more people...
I don't see how you can not understand how it relates to the topic of free relationships and sex -
@Hazarth dude you’re moving in quicksands
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@kiki not really, no
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@kiki am surprised you still keep that conversation with Hazarth, is just a person with no real topic to discuss
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@kiki dude, where is that Kiki manifesto, I wanna read it.
Also, look at the silver line, you write very good shit, so far I like the few posts I have read from yours, interesting and honest I can say; Most of artists(specially writers and painters) had depression, schizophrenia or a mix of those, looks like a requirement to obtain deepness, so, cheers my friend.
PS: Do not forget to send me the link to the kiki manifesto -
@arcioneo forget about them, they're just jealous.
Regarding artists, yes. If you want to be an artist or honestly anyone who have influence, you have to have some spark inside you, some fundamental conflict that cannot be resolved, perhaps some pain and struggle, albeit depression or other disorder.
Pain pushes you to learn your context and build mental models, to become aware. Even if you have a bad back, you'll be researching about treatments, you'll go to the doctor. Imagine what an eternal unresolvable conflict inside your head can do.
However, attributing all your achievements to a mere presence of pain in your life is wrong. After all, pain is passive, and you need an active entity to build something. That entity were you, the person who built things and expressed how you feel.
With good medication and a good worldview, you can regain control. The personality you built will remain even when the pain goes away. -
@arcioneo like this, you will ascend into the transhumanist heaven you built yourself, making you the only god worth worshiping. Your vision, your mental models, all at your disposal, and without pain, you can wield them as your ultimate weapon.
The notion of mental illnesses being eternal is flawed. You can literally rewire neural connections inside your brain with special techniques like CBT. It is proven, and it works for anyone whose personality is intact. Yes, some diseases erase your personality altogether, like some forms of schizophrenia, but other than that, CBT works. Also, now there are so many amazing medications that act as shortcuts on your way to ascension.
Transhumanism is not a religion, but a notion that eradicates magical thinking and helps you find out what biological challenges can be beaten and what can not, exactly.
Here's the link: https://uyouthe.notion.site/Kiki-Ma... -
@kiki A lot of Nietzsche superman here uh!
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@arcioneo lol thanks
Nietzsche defined superhuman as the one who are ready to sacrifice yourself for their species at any given moment. That's not the case with me
My partner and I are in a free relationship, and there is a solid reasoning behind it.
When you stop seeing sex with the other person as magical sexual utopia, when you realize that merely having sex with someone else is not the reason to leave your partner, your relationship becomes much stronger.
In monogamy, your real partner competes with imaginary utopia, always loosing. In polygamy, your partner doesn't compete at all, because you know that you are always welcome, no matter the affairs.
I've seen enough broken marriages, including the relationship of my own parents. I've seen enough families of my relatives, where people love each other, destroyed by just one affair with someone else. I don't want this in my life.
Polygamy is the entire new level of acceptance and loving your person as a whole, without making them hide their fantasies, without making affairs a taboo, without being judged. Monogamy is a stubborn relic of the times of inquisition.
I created this theory, and we brought it to life. The sheer amount of the insight we both got is beyond any explanation. My current relationship is the strongest one I've ever had, and I had a lot of them because you know, I'm kinda hot.
One year on, we never had a single argument. I chose that person, and we are close. We have many things in common, we built many things together, we love each other. Our relationship is the major opposing force to my anxiety and their depression.
I won't let monogamy destroy that because some child molesting priest enforced it centuries ago. Transhumanism wins.
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