German taxes are fucking bullshit

They are not: free health care, free education (incl. universities), unemployment & retirement plans, ...,
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Autobahn

@norman70688 There are some other useful tax funded items before it comes to the Autobahn

@Frederick the ones on the money you get for working.

@lastNick of course, but not really seeing 33% of your money sucks if you're new to the game..

@lastNick

> currently paying around 2000 € per month in social security and tax into a completely broken system

yeah, absolutely "free"

That's government-funded programs for you:
Always expensive and usually incredibly shitty.

It's not free; just paid ahead of time, or by someone else.

@lastNick which are forced upon you without your consent

@rendezvous only if they pay no taxes themselves.

German taxes are better than Latvian taxes any day of the week.

Yeah how shitty it is here... Look at the US where people get bankrupt because they needed an ambulance. Then I rather pay takes and go to the doc if I feel sick and don't pay a single fucking cent.

@sboesch Why do you think the system is broken?

@cpchristensen The tax system was established by democratically elected representatives. So there was a consent. You are free to elect representatives that want to reform the tax system. Or you can leave the country.

@nitwhiz It may suck at first but you will get used to it or even love it in the long run.

@Root That depends on the government. And the government is democratically elected.

@spongessuck And this is the main advantage: the young generation finances the retirement of old, the healthy crowd finances the health treatments of ill people, ...

Basically everyone carries its weight for the social community

That’s why the German economic system is called „social market economy“ instead of capitalism.

@lastNick ah yes, good ol' "if you don't like it, then leave". Generally its up to the aggressor to stop doing something bad, not on the victim for being in that situation. But to be fair thats a fairly subjective perspective. And also just because someone consented doesnt mean I consented. I am not sure how Germany's government works, but here in the states we have a representative democracy, which I would argue isn't even real democracy.

@norman70688 one that does not forcibly steal money from its citizens, preferably wth opt-in taxation where you can only use public resources if you voluntarily pay the taxes. But it would also need to have plenty of free market competition for those that think taxes are a waste.

@norman70688 you question was asking for an ideal country, I read that to mean a utopia in our eyes, if that was not your meaning, my bad. If you are talking about a country that exists nowadays, then I would agree, it doesnt exist.

@norman70688 I think Switzerland does pretty well. At least observed from outside, it has by far the most wealthy and educated population in entire Europe. But honestly I'm out of the discussion. I liked this place most because it's rarely about politics, not like in every other social network.

@Ubbe i mean I imho it is literal theft, so I would personally classify it as aggression. And I am anti-forced taxation, not anti-taxation, not anti-government, and certainly not pro-anarchy. Also, i would disagree, democracy is a system which favors mob rule at the expense of minorities. I am not just talking about ethnic minorities, in the united states we have political parties that are not-so-jokingly called a "waste of a vote."
This next part i will be honest and say I may not know what I am talking about because I have never lived under such a system, but it seems like multple major polotical parties would be just as bad, because lets say a party with 20% of a vote wins, well then wouldnt that mean that 80% of the voters are unhappy with the results?

@cpchristensen There is no aggressor who is doing bad things. Germany had generations of governments that cared about the whole society instead of individual wealth. According to your insults you don’t like to be part of a society but a egotistical individual.

@lastNick i mean name calling doesn't really make you correct, but okay

@cpchristensen It is not theft! There are laws about taxation and the conditions are transparent for everyone.

Everyone is aware of these conditions before the very first paycheck.

Every citizen can try to change/reform the system by elections (incl. getting elected).

Voluntary taxation works nowhere! Even in Europe every company and individual tries to minimize their tax duty.

@Ubbe i think if your argument is that ina. World where only volunteers pay taxes, then no one would pay taxes, just proves my idea that forced taxation is theft, because no one wants it. And there are indeed things like private security forced, private prisons, and I would not be suprised to see such things as private courts.

@lastNick taxation is not theft, forced taxation is theft. transparency is not the same as fair. Telling someone ahead of time you are going to charge them money, doesnt change the fact that you are taking their money. And i do not believe the insititution that relies on taxes would allow the people to not be legally required to pay them

@deviestRanter You are correct that no one wants taxes BUT they are necessary for the society. Most of the Europeans understand that as you can observe from election results.

@lastNick So I completely agree that they are necessary, i am just saying that the fact that the government has the authority to take whatever amount of money they chose from you without consent is a very dangerous game. I heavily believe in a balance of powers, and at least in the systems I have lived under, the government feels much less like a benevolent collection of democratic decisions, and more like an ominous entity that does what it wants. i do not think it is a good idea to write governments a "blank check" with the assumltion that they are working in our best interests.

@rendezvous i would like to point out there were a plethora of people who decided to just pay the fine for not having ObamaCare because the fine was more affordable than ObamaCare itself. And i would say that only works if thw government can perform well, which it cant (at least in the US) as a general rule of thumb here, anything the US do, a corporation is already doing cheaper, faster, and of higher quality.

@rendezvous so I definitely cant speak on things I do not know about (such as the situation in Franch), but i do agree that corporations are not always better, but I would argue that governments dont always have the best history either. You can point to falling bridges, and I can point to the literally absurd levels of broken, cracked, and unpainted streets in the US. Roads are one of the least private things in the states, and coincidentally they are not maintained well. Or the fact that "affordable healthcare" bancrupts people

@norman70688 perhaps absurd was hyperbolic, but i consider these unacceptable

@norman70688 true, true

You guys seriously need to calm down.
I was just bitching about the fact i got my first real job with actually decent amount of money paid but i only get 66.6% of it. That's it.^^

Of course this system is good in long run but in short sight it just fucking sucks.^^

@rendezvous Just start using the benefits: earn an additional study degree, use public swimming pools, theaters & operas, get all the vaccinations, drink tap water everywhere, drive on nice streets, ...

@lastNick cmon, stop with the streets. German streets are shit, the autobahn is a huge construction site since forever. And btw. Low taxing Switzerland is ranked 1, according to this: https://de.statista.com/statistik/...

@sboesch I wouldn‘t call them shit but considering the sum of all streets and the car density in Germany there has to be construction work all the time https://de.statista.com/statistik/...

Greetings from Austria, where the highways belong to a „private“ company (ASFINAG)