Join devRant
Do all the things like
++ or -- rants, post your own rants, comment on others' rants and build your customized dev avatar
Sign Up
Pipeless API
From the creators of devRant, Pipeless lets you power real-time personalized recommendations and activity feeds using a simple API
Learn More
-
@melezorus34 yknow it's also funny how ignorant people stick with each other
-
@electrineer you sir, you made my day haha yeah im planning to leave this hellhole. im hoping i can avoid these kinds of peeps in my next company but they are everywhere sadly. how do u even handle peeps like them?
-
As soon as I read the first sentence I guessed the rest. Seen this many times with grads. You're new to office politics. You can't just outright go up to a manager/team leader and start complaining about one of your seniors, unless it's something really serious.
A little advice for this sort of thing:
1. Never accuse unless you're sure that you're more valuable than them.
2. Never go over someone's head without talking to them first.
3. Relate to how it affects the company not you.
4. People will not be objective.
Next time try:
Politely asking the senior dev to start writing their code so that someone 'with my experience' can understand. -
@elgringo TLDR; Ignorant asshole dev doesn't want to accept it's his fault.
-
@gibus the only thing that led me to think it was okay is that they always tell me that it's okay to be open to them. That they are always open to criticisms. That we are a team and all that big speech about teams. how we can help each other improve blah blah blah i guess that words are all for show
-
@Wintercrest
Totally understandable. You can took them at their word. But in reality they asked for more than they can handle from you (honesty). That's their problem, not your fault.
Over time people learn that you are better off testing the waters / relationships with small things, or observe how they handle other things to see if they can actually handle honest feedback before you risk it yourself. -
@Wintercrest You won't rise through the ranks if you approach these topics from purely technical points of view, yet neglect social dynamics.
This is simply not good enough. If you happen to be a team lead some day and fail to understand, that your inferiors are affected by your words and actions, that they are not purely machines, able to talk about work without any socio-emotional attachment, then this sounds like a nightmare lead to me. Someone incapable of comprehending complex social interactions around themselves.
Personally I believe that you may have been right about code quality and practices, based on your story. Though I didn't see any self-reflection on that topic from you either, so maybe not. Either way, the way you handled the social interactions was plain stupid in my eyes.
People take critique emotionally. This is also very dependent on how you chose to put this. I know it is popular to 'stick it to the man', but my impression is, there are two sides to this story. -
@Maer I understand what you are saying. Right now, I still have a lot to understand about social dynamics. I am pretty introverted so I tend to shy away from people. I acknowledge that I am still incapable of leading my own team but I want to work on it. Can you perhaps suggest an activity that I can do to equip myself for this?
I am also very interested to know how you came with the conclusion that I handled the social interactions 'stupidly'. I want to know more about your thoughts if it's okay with you 🙂
"People take critique emotionally", yes some people do. But is it so stupid of me to think that a team leader shouldn't? After all, if there are things that should be improved, shouldn't we address it?
Yes, there are two sides in every story. However, even though I wanted to hear the side of the other, I don't think they'll ever tell me the truth. If there is anything I learned from my stay here in the company, it's that people are never really honest with you. -
@F1973 it feels weird. it doesnt feel right :(( i always thought that if there are any problems, you should always try your best to fix it. if there are issues, address it. in the corporate life, do i really have to trade my values? is the corporate life going to form me into a person i dont want to be? if so... are you guys...happy?
-
@F1973 im sure you have your reasons for letting go of your younger self and i respect that. as for me, i still want to find a path where i can keep my values and still earn enough to make a living. if i let go of my values, i think i'll be very unhappy and i would hate myself eventually. i know it's going to be hard and yes, my values may not get me anywhere but i still want to try. it's our life afterall, we should always choose the path that we want to take.
thank you so much for telling me the story though. i will always keep it in my mind. i appreciate it 🙂
the reason for my values runs deep. my father is a corporate dude. he's mean all the time. he has no values or whatsoever. he doesnt have any real friends. his own wife pretends to love him. his own children hate him. i just dont want to become the person i hate. -
@Wintercrest
W.r.t. which interaction I consider stupid - the expectation of a senior not being defensive about their work when a junior confronts them is at least naive. This is highlighted by the fact that you knew, them and the lead are "tight" and yet you decided to venture forth, because surely they are going to be 100% objective.
Well, they weren't and you should never expect people to be. It is great when they are, but this is something to hope for, not something to expect.
In addition, it does sound to me, as if you are freshly graduated, come into their workplace and want to tell them how to run things. Believe me, I do get that, having worked in a company during my M.Sc. which deployed the most horrible code known to man.
But still, this is not about being right or wrong, this is about striking the right tone. In an ideal world this should not matter, but in every single work environment it does matter. -
@Wintercrest
As to how you could improve.
First of all, I think you poisoned the well where you are now. You need to get out of there, otherwise you won't get happy, because destroying trust and relations is a lot easier than earning them back.
When you are looking to suggest improvements, it is important to highlight, that you are not arguing against a person, but you are merely looking to improve your company's product. If your colleagues feel criticized, many deal poorly with this, I barely met any people who are completely unaffected, at least at first. So be helpful, suggest ways to imporove, talk things through face to face with the other person and be prepared to soft-pedal sometimes, even when you think, things can be done better.
Colleagues need to trust your judgement first, once they do, following your advice, when the tone remains right, will happen automatically. But not when you are the greenhorn in someone else's house. -
Furthermore, a lot is experience. There is no shortcut. Currently I read in your post, that you are able to recognize, how to imrove the work of your colleagues. Before, I mentioned self-reflection which seemed to be lacking. So I cannot determine if you see where your own flaws might currently lie, so ask yourself a) is the interaction you have had with your colleagues possibly poorly handled from your side and b) whether or not this expands to technical questions. Maybe some bad code is bad, because the other person is unwilling to learn best practices. Maybe the code is bad, because they had to handle a special case with some library in an ugly way and were aware of that.
Moral of that last example is - I used to often see code and think to myself, "dear lord, wtf am I looking at". But sometimes - by far not always - just sometimes, you look deeper or talk to the author and realize, "oh hey, I see the reasoning behind this given these special circumstances. -
Finally I would like to recommend some further reading on these issues, because this also touches code reviews and office interactions.
Have a look at this post on StackExchange - Workplace:
https://workplace.stackexchange.com/...
Some of the answers deal with problems you described as to how to implement better practices, how to deal with reviews, how to interact and where problems lie.
Be aware, this is always harder, when you are willing to teach a superior, but even with inferiors you MUST avoid common mistakes.
Lastly - if you decide you are willing to improve practices of a superior - be a 100% certain to be absolutely correct. -
@Maer
> Well, they weren't and you should never expect people to be. It is great when they are, but this is something to hope for, not something to expect.
You're right. Being a team leader and being objective is ideal but it also doesn't mean that I should expect those from other people. It was my fault on that part. Thank you for making me realize this. -
@Maer
> In addition, it does sound to me, as if you are freshly graduated, come into their workplace and want to tell them how to run things.
I've been working with two years and in that two years, I have worked with different senior developers. I have no problems working with them because they do follow the coding standards that is set in the company. Additionally, they also know the good practices. We also communicate properly when it comes to system design. When I was assigned to my current team, I was shocked because of how he is. He codes without planning. He is proud that he copy pasted his codes. It is okay if he tested it but there are times where my colleagues and I would find bugs in his transaction if he only tested it at least once. Naturally, when the testing period came, we ended up fixing a lot of his bugs. Other than that, he just modifies the code base that may affect our transactions too without telling us. -
@Maer He even told me that there are no such thing as coding standards. When I was developing a real time application, he told me that websockets are for the lazy people and he advised me to just use the long polling way. Also, there are no communications or whatsoever. It's like "you're on your own". We tried to reach out to him but he doesn't really seem to listen. It is said that this senior developer has been working alone for many years. It wasn't my intention to "tell them how to run things", but rather I wanted to improve things. I just wanted him to be aware that he is working with other people now.
> Self relection
a. The interaction is poorly handled from my side because I expected the team leader to be objective, in which I now realized that I shouldn't have. Also, I do not know how to sugarcoat my words. I was pretty much direct to the point.
b. I hope the above answer brings some light regarding this. -
@Maer
> Code reviews
About that....we dont have code reviews. A lot of developers already addressed this to the management but we still don't have it. The management doesn't really care as long as it's working
Thank you so much for your advice :) I have much to learn about the corporate life.
when your code is a mess but everything work out in the end
When you keep getting +1s on a rant you posted a month ago.
Go big or go home.
I reported to our team leader (who is not a developer) that me and my colleague has been having problems with our senior developer whose codes are unmaintainable and messy. I told the team lead that I am losing my trust towards my senior developer and that his codes are messy and not following the coding standards. I was nervous at first because this certain team leader is tight with the senior dev. But still, I expected the team lead to be objective.
I was surprised because the team lead asked me if 'I was perfect' and then the team lead continued to shift the conversation towards me. Team lead then started to compare me with the senior dev which is unfair because I've only been working for 2 years whereas the senior developer has been doing this for 6+ years. Team lead said that I was arrogant. Team lead sent our convo to the other teammates and friends. Team lead told me that I am such a baby.
Fast forward, the senior dev talked to me. Told me that he was busy so he didn't get to improve his codes. Which I dont buy because I often see his discord status as playing during work hours. Told me that it wasnt him. Which I dont know if i should believe since he always lies. Told me that his knowledge is outdated. Told me that maybe because I came from a good university and he did not. He apologized and told me he will improve. Sounds good right?
It's a lie. Because then my friend gave me a recording of his voice ranting about me after our talk. In that recording, he said that I have nothing to prove so I dont get a say. He said that he doesnt care about me. He said that I am cocky. Which I dont understand. I only commented abt his work, why is he attacking me personally? Plus, if someone new like me already already noticed the flaws in his work, what does that say about his skill?
My teammates then asked me to just take the fall lol take note that these teammates were also complaining about this senior dev. they asked me to just give them what they wanted to hear. That I am the one who's wrong and the bosses are right. I said I wanted to defend myself but they hated me for that. They told me to think about what would happen to them. They told me I am selfish. Is it selfish for wanting to defend myself?
I defended myself. I told the senior dev that my intentions are for the right reason. He told me he understands. Later that day, a friend told me he talked behind my back again.
Senior dev told me that the team leader cried because of the words I said. Which i found confusing because it was my own feeling, my own opinion that i am losing trust with this certain senior dev so why would the team lead be so affected by that? Also, i showed our convo to the most objective people i know and they said that i didnt say anything that is offensive nor arrogant I have no control as to how people would react to the words I say. It's beyond me.
I feel so helpless. I told those things to the team lead because I think a team should be open to each other but I was blown out of proportion instead. My friend told me that the team lead and the senior dev are still talking behind my back.
If they do this every time someone tries to speak up, will they ever grow?
rant
story