so there was a tik tok (yes i'm a 17 year old american, so i use tik tok) about making an iphone app: "how to make an iphone app, step one open your mac and download xcode..."

i commented, "if you're not rich and can't afford a mac, learn flutter..." and a bunch of people go "just get a job it's only like $1k"

there's so many rich people out there who just don't understand the concept of debt, how there's not enough jobs, there's so many problems.

there's nothing even political about it. when the amount of unemployed people is more than the amount of job openings, not everyone can have a job, that's just a fact. how even if you have a job, you might be spending most of your money paying off student loans.

some people are just so stupid. they start off in a position where their parents have loads of money that gets them into great schools and internships and programs and they still want to claim it was "hard work" that got them there.

"Only" 1k for a shitty laptop 🤔

There are no burger flipping jobs in your area?

It might not even be about debt but about the fact that tech stuff tends to cost about the same everywhere and yet cost of living and the amount of spare money you have at the end of the month might differ vastly depending on where you live.

A development mac for 1k is HILARIOUS, by the way. They don't even know the price of apple products.

@Demolishun @junon Paying for a MacBook on burger wages. 😂

Say it’s a $2,500 MacBook Pro, since they’re doing some decent weight development here. And say the person lives in some libby lefty place that pays $15 minimum wage for burger jockeys. Now let’s also assume that the person has no other expenses, at all, and doen’t even need to eat. Now, with all of the assumptions out of the way, let’s math! The person makes $15/hr, though after tax it’s closer to $11/hr (though taxes are probably higher than 30% since they’re in a libby lefty place, but let’s go with that). A $2,500 lappy divided by $11/hour is 1 lappy in 227.27 hours, and assuming (hey, another one!) their manager understands their burning need for a lappy and schedules them for 40 hours every week, they could buy their lappy in: $2500 ÷ $11/hour ÷ 40 hours/week = 5.68 weeks.

If everything goes according to their naive plan, they could buy their shiny new MacBook Pro and attempt to build a mobile app (probably knowing nothing since they’re a burger jockey) in about a month and a half.

If they wanted to cheap out and buy a $1500 MacBook Air instead, they could buy one within a more reasonable $1500 ÷ $11/hour ÷ 40 hours/week ≈ 3.5 weeks (so one month) after, you know, not eating or paying any bills at all.

Totally reasonable.

@calmyourtities Delete that Chinese spyware off your phone! Wtf is wrong with you?

@Root I was given a choice when I graduated high school. Get a job, go to school, or both. If I didn't I was told to leave my parents home. I got a shitty job for 2 years (flipping burgers), then found a less shitty job, and so on. I don't know ops situation, but unless they are destitute and on the street I cannot see it unreasonable to learn how to work. If it is a pride thing, well, prideful people stay poor.

@Demolishun I am absolutely not recommending against getting a low-paying job if that’s what someone can get.

However, the “just get a job it’s only like $1k” comment is just ignorant. Both of the cost of dev laptops and entry-level job wages. My example even used $15/hour minimums, which aren’t even common! The average is like $8, so double the numbers in my comment. And if you factor in having to eat (and eating things like ramen), it’s more like quadrupling them.

@Root My first computer I had I scraped together $300 and bought a shitty used one. So the craigslist route would be a better option. I was making less than $5 an hour then. Took forever to buy. I am not trivializing the situation others might be in. I may have made a poor assumption about someone who has access to an Apple phone (which I deem to be an expensive luxury). I was lucky to be able to live at home when I went to college. My parents paid zero for my college. I moved out about 3 years later. Lived in some shitty places too.

@Root Stop it, you'll give them ideas!

Here is a perhaps better, more attainable, option:

https://walmart.com/ip/...

You can smell the privilege in some of those tik tok videos really. But if you want to you will make it happen in one way or another. I know many broke ass people that forced their way into getting what they wanted, expensive tech considered. I hate how expensive Apple products are, but in terms of learning about software development I legitimately believe them to be one of the best starting points. Wanna learn Android? Boom, IOS development? boom, damn near every web development tool in existence (modern of course) boom. I despise how their line of products is so hideously expensive that you can't possibly afford them without initial steps into privilege. But still. What OP said is true, not everyone can just hustle all the time, sometimes life takes place. I see that shit daily and it breaks my <3.

@pxeger Yes.

Everyone pays taxes. The more you earn, the higher your percentage.

Libertarian extra:
Really, everyone should pay a flat tax, or better: all taxes should be “optional” like sales tax.

Apple is ripping off everyone, even the devs. Solution: just ignore that shitshow.

Isn’t Tiktok the place where those kids pretended to be people in heaven who died in the Holocaust or some shet? It’s just narcissistic cringe. I’m sure there’s plenty of less cringey apps for 17 year olds.

@Root and it becomes even more totally reasonable if you think about other countries. The minimum net salary in my country is around 276eur/month, which is around 1.15 eur/hour, which is around 1.39 usd/hour. But the prices of those tech devices are the same if not higher due to transportation and what not.

@Root The US is kind of weird in some regards - I can kind of understand why prices of goods are usually advertised before tax (because taxes are different in different states), but why is it the same with salaries?

Where I am, prices are almost always with tax included (unless it's in a store that primarily targets businesses, not end customers) and salaries are usually discussed in their net value (because it's the employer who deducts taxes and medical insurance from the gross sum and pays them in to the respective entity directly).

@Root Flat tax isn't really fair either. Why should someone who earns 1M per year pay 10x as much as someone who earns 100K per year?

@Demolishun Because he profits ten times as much from the status quo and thus has ten times as much interest to maintain things so that they stay how they are.

@Fast-Nop The 1M per year guy is most likely a business owner that provides jobs and contributes to the community. The impact of a leader like this in the community can be immensely positive. Successful businesses attract other successful businesses and communities grow. More jobs are created and more people prosper. I would say the 1M per year guy has more positive impact monetarily (and otherwise) than the 100K per year guy. So the contribution to society is greater.

@Demolishun He also needs police and the whole judicial system more because he's a more attractive target.

He also needs educated employees because he doesn't make 1M by his own work. He makes 1M by knowing which work his employees should do for him and keeping his share of the worth they generate under his direction.

The whole thing is a case of "a horse without rider is still a horse, but a rider without horse isn't a rider anymore."

@Fast-Nop I can see your logic there. However, trying to make the rich pay more is why detroit has no car manufacturers and partially why musk went to texas. If the area is not attractive and makes them not want to live there they will leave. Which is the whole reason Monaco is a center point for the ultra wealthy. They want to keep what they earn. So I guess its a balance of tolerance.

@Demolishun That’s why I said: “or better: all taxes should be optional like sales tax”

A flat tax is “fair,” but I agree with your points, too. An optional tax: the more you spend, the more you pay in taxes. Income shouldn’t be taxed because having income isn’t really optional. (Also, income tax is theft.)

Businesses matter much more to the economy than individuals for reasons outlined by @demolishun. Without the business, individual workers cannot produce as much; the business acts as a multiplier on their efforts. This is why good business laws (and business tax laws) are so important. And also why terrible business laws kill cities and states. And counties if it’s wide spread enough.

@pxeger You don’t need to buy things. Doing so is a choice. You are taxed when you chose to be.

For this to truly be optional, sales tax (and similar taxes) should not apply to necessities like food, etc. People should never have to pay money simply because they exist. That is extortion.

@pxeger It is theft. I put in work and earn money for that work. The government takes part of that money — the more I earn, the larger the percentage they take — and uses it to pay for things that I might not want or even use. And worst of all, they give some of my income to those who refuse to do any work at all. I have met several, and they proudly say they have never worked a day in their life. And for much of my career, they “earned” significantly more than I.

I am not against disability, but leeches deserve my salt, not my blood.

So income from my efforts funds people who work less (or who settle for less income), or those who refuse altogether. In other words, income tax incentivizes their laziness, and punishes my efforts. The more effort I expend, and therefore the larger my income, the more I am punished for that effort — and the more it rewards the lazy.

If someone is poor through poor choices, laziness, or lack of trying (e.g. keeping a minimum wage job because finding another is too much effort), they do not deserve financial relief, though perhaps counseling would help. If someone is poor through no fault of their own (bad luck, unable to work, hard times, etc.), they deserve help and should receive it. But only so long as they endeavor to get back on their feet.

We should punish laziness, not reward it.
We should reward effort, not punish it.

@pxeger no federal income taxes on the first $12400, but you still need to pay social security and medicare taxes, which is about 7.65%. And your state or city can have their own rules about minimum income to pay taxes.

@Root however, you are receiving services from the government. Law enforcement, roads, firefighters. If you live in a city, then also garbage collection, water delivery, etc. Why shouldn't you pay for this? Or do you think that the government shouldn't provide any services?

@guitargirl15 Law enforcement isn’t federal. Nor are firefighters. Roads can be, and I agree we should pay for those as they bolster the economy and therefore help everyone. But state/city taxes pay for police and fire.

I pay for water, electricity, garbage, sewer, etc. out of pocket. If I don’t use electricity, for example because of having solar, I wouldn’t need to pay for it. Same if I really wanted to use a latrine and bucket instead of toilets and showers. Ridiculous example.

I’m not against paying for these services, but they don’t come out of my income taxes either. Except roads, but those could come out of an increased sales tax instead. Honestly, I would charge a larger sales tax on vehicles, tires, and gas/diesel instead, as those are directly responsible for requiring road maintenance. Meaning if you don’t drive, you don’t pay taxes on roads. See how nicely that works?

That’s the concept of an “optional” tax: you only pay taxes for services you use, so you can avoid paying them if you do not. A blanket sales tax bends this almost too far, but does help pay for everything else without being a mandatory tax on life.

I don’t have a great solution for police and fire, since honestly those are rare emergency-only services, and paying only when you need them is silly and doesn’t work well. But I am okay with paying for them anyway because it does absolutely improve things. Lower crime, less fire damage, etc. They are little different from paying for preventative maintenance.

@Root

"rare emergency-only services"

2020 made this rare->common due to peaceful protests...

@Demolishun “peaceful” protests by the “tolerant” 🙄

@Root I've gone down to a 35h week because 40h is nonsense due to progressive taxing. The last 5 hous have the worst net pay anyway, that's not worth my time. So yeah, progressive tax incentivises working less.