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Like @UnicornPoo, it’s just social anxiety for me. Crippling self-consciousness. Online I don’t care because people generaly judge me for my abilities, my personality, my writing, and little else — not my speaking skills, awkwardness, looks, clothes, hair, shoes, flirtiness, dating potential, ….
In person I need to be a perfect social butterfly that’s somehow also technical and girly, but not too much, a little flirty but not enough to give anyone ideas and therefore offend/“trick”, who also pushes ideas confidently without being too assertive and bitchy, and who is never ever wrong. Otherwise I don’t fit expectations and am disregarded or ostracized, or am seen as a pretender or simply not as good as the boys. (The last bit varies by company, but it’s always there to some extent.)
But I’m shy, not a butterfly, have zero interest in being flirty, am incredibly self conscious about my appearance, and have very little interest in talking unless I’m comfortable with someone or am confident enough in my ideas to share them — and I will happily discuss my points when I know I’m right, even if it means I’m called bossy or bitchy for it. But none of this is socially acceptable behavior, leading to more self-consciousness because it just further alienates me. -
Some of us have been to the depths of chronic depression, suicidal even at 1 point.... So when it comes to being a social butterfly, that's the least of my concerns. Knowledge is power, the more you have the more you have, but that comes at a cost, whether that be assholenees, social isolation or what ever else someone might need to feel like they are contributing in there life to keep them from falling under a rock again.
The asshole mentality is a side affect of knowledge mind you, and very rarely do you find someone capable of not flaunting there obtained intellect when they know they are right.
I was bullied not because of intellect but because there's always that 1 kid that cops the beating, well today I couldn't give a flying fuck about anyone else, why? Because no one for a long time gave a fuck about me, I've worked hard and made every dollar I have and if that means not giving a shit what others think of me, that's the price I pay in life.
Do I try to be the asshole? No. I'd rather have a relaxed conversation and work through the motions, but when you're not going to listen and decide against good advice, I'll slap you with my wisdom regardless of who you are.
Can a monkey do my job, probably, but most of the dumbasses so far have failed. So that gives me hope at least at there's a decent bar to psd the monkey test 😅 -
😤mini rant over.
Edit: I grabbed a drink 🥃 and reread this, and I'll agree in advance I sound like a dick here.
But In all seriousness, how I am online (atleast on devRant), is practically how I am offline.
Sure I can mingle and get along with most people, I'll force my self to enter a social event when it's needed or I can contribute, but by default I'm not the social type - no really, unless it's with friends I'm comfortable with, and oddly enough, that's not all that many. -
@C0D4 join the Dick Brotherhood
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I don’t like socialism and populism.
We’re not robots, we are different from each other. The humanity should respect that yet every fight puts the bar from one side to other punching some group in the head.
I’m more likely to give power to artificial intelligence than human beings. We’re just dumb animals with god syndrome that will burn this planet and put us in hell. -
@Root This is all me as well.
In fact, outside of being arrogant (to which my esteem is much too low for), the original post described me well -- none of which is by choice. -
I'm pretty good at acting fake and nice at work. Can even try to be outgoing at times, but sometimes I just can't keep the act up and feel like I'm just lying to myself. I'm an asshole, but honestly because I'm just often lonely. Non of my peers really get me, and that's okay I suppose. I just genuinely have a hard time liking people in general, and recognize most interaction is fake, but I have to do it also to fit in and work.
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@C0D4
• Chronic depression, suicidal at times: Yes.
• “No one for a long time gave a fuck about me”: Yes, and that continues to this day. I feel invisible, uninteresting, unwanted.
• Made fun of because of intellect: yes.
• Regularly beaten: yes.
I’ve also seen my work taken for granted, ignored, carelessly broken and thrown out, ridiculed, and/or stolen and shown off as someone else’s. All of this, plus the above, makes me absolutely hate people. I’ve found very few decent people among a sea of thieving, abusive assholes. And no matter how hard I try, no matter how nice or helpful I am, or how much I improve the lives of others, nothing changes. I’m used and abused, stolen from, walked over, insulted, made fun of, and left bleeding in a ditch. And afterwards: accused of not appreciating their hospitality and kindness.
This is why people turn sour, apathetic, misanthropic, and malevolent. -
@Root "I am not at all cynical, I have merely got experience, which, however, is very much the same thing." (Oscar Wilde)
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@Fast-Nop you described your own skills when not paid as Machiavellian. You really did that without cringing?
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@C0D4 Seen game of thrones? Power is power. I don't think you came out as a dickhead or anything.
I would question everyone that uses notions such as "because of my intellect", "because of how smart I am", but alas I am not going to debate those things, everyone can bs about their credentials or knowledge points on the internet :P (not saying that you are)
My point of attack is more aimed towards the people that purposely aim at treating others in a bad way to fit with a trope. -
@AleCx04 Yes. What I do find cringy is your glorifcation of monkey skills. If I had just wanted to be in line with the herd, finding food and fucks, then being born as human would have been wasted.
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@Fast-Nop explain to me how saying that thousands of monkeys can do the shit that assholes online do is glorification?
I am severely interested in that. Here I thought I was using it as an insult. -
@Root I find you interesting
Mainly because your name makes me think I’m courting a powerful friend
I want you for your privileges
A highly elevated woman is sexy lol -
@AleCx04 What I meant is that finding food, fucks, and blending in with the herd is what real monkeys do. It doesn't even take apes.
Also, remember: nice guys always finish last except in one aspect: they're the first to be thrown under the bus because they're dumb enough to expect the game is actually being played by the proposed rules.
That's because they swallow the "be nice" propaganda that trickles down from management - in other words, from people whose very career is built on not being team players and getting ahead of competitors using elbows.
Antisocial tendencies can be useful, but it's of course smarter to use them strategically and not blindly. That's one thing the human intellect allows over what monkeys can do.
If we were in a paid environment, I listen to your call for team spirit, pretend to think for a second, then nod in fake agreement. That would get me off the radar. -
@AleCx04 I feel that's something Varys would say. 😏
As I said, it wasn't due to intellect, That may have made life bearable in those days, something to validate the bullshit. Plus I have nothing to flaunt in credentials, and that makes it easy, the average keyboard warrior at least finished school, I can't even use that line🤷♂️
Look I get it, it's not an attack on us, but stereotypes cast large nets, it's bound to catch a few that are both "my life is a dev, I will be nothing else" so I can't have a social life or have a conversation without some tech involved.
But there's others that it's all they have in life that actually gives them something to appreciate, and s for what ever reason may fit the rest of the stereotype by no fault of their own, they've just been beaten down over the years and have self esteem or anxiety issues, but it paints a similar picture from the outside.
it's a small difference on paper and hard to put into words that make sense, but it's a big difference to some of us.
@Root it's interesting to see into the depths of others and find people that have swam up shit creek as well, it sort of takes the feeling of doing it alone away. It's a shame really for what some have to put them selves through so others can feel good about themselves.
People are assholes, while not all - it's true, there's a handful every once an a while that will prove this wrong, however it's been my default approach for nearly as long as I can remember. -
@Fast-Nop I see what you mean. But you are confusing being a socially adept person to being a "nice guy".
I am not talking about "nice guys" I am talking about socially aware people.
Every time the term "social skills" comes about in this platform, everyone thinks of some jock doing everything else everyone else is doing. Which just proves my point further that a lot of you are very much disconnected from the whole idea of being able to socialize. -
@AleCx04 "L'enfer, c'est les autres." (Sartre)
("Hell is other people.")
And yeah, of course social skills are about what everyone else is doing. That's how social dynamics work with pack animals like many mammals, including homo sapiens.
It's not that I can't socialise if I need to, but people, and especially crowds, are noisy. I hate that. All I want is silence.
On top of that, people aren't focused. They are jumpy and distracted with small attention span. That makes it even more tiring to deal with.
Two hours meeting, and you can't expect productive work from me for the rest of the day. Six hours telecon, and I lay down for sleep to get my head clear. It's that much physically exhausting.
Maybe you need to understand that not everyone enjoys social interaction like you seem to do. -
@Fast-Nop "silence! I kill you!"
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@Fast-Nop no no, I get what you mean. I am not saying that everyone in here needs to jump at the opportunity to be inside of social interactions. I am mostly found every weekend staying at home with my family without needing to go to a crowded place.
What I am saying is acting like if everyone around us was some sort of retard just because they do not fall inside of the buble of software development, as if this was the end all be all of worlds for one to be in, else he/she is a fucktard.
It is fine if you want to be on your own etc, that is not what I am attacking or criticizing. -
@AleCx04 people these days are assholes just looking for an opportunity to misbehave in general
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@C0D4 I get you. For what is worth, I don't think bad of you or the way you carried this conversation. Honestly no one that replied to me is or has been a target of what I mean.
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@killames which is EXACTLY what I am going for. My issue is not if someone is an introvert by default. I can respect and understand that. Some people just get horrified by the idea of being amongst others. I can understand that, my heart goes to this because it is the same with me.
My issue is with those that act like if everyone is inferior or somehow lacking in quality because "fuck it, I am a developer, i deal with higher things than you, thus I am superior" and completely disregard concepts such as networking, linking with others etc.
As an introvert myself, I can understand that social interactions are tiresome. But I cannot act like if the only thing that was going to make me shine in this industry was my skill and skill only. There are many other attributes worth keeping in check. This is what I am trying to convey, but it seems that it struck a nerve on some people in here. -
@AleCx04 for me it’s the reductive nature of the newspeak paired with the desire to fill the world with bad feeling and drama I don’t like
I think you’re hitting on a tendency in the past for people to at least pretend to this to salve their own egos by embracing stereotypes related to perceived behaviors among professionals to grow tired or annoyed trying to explain things and a mid 2000s tendency to try to seem socially conscious and worldly which really leads to talking hypocritically about the ills of the world but putting down on anyone that doesn’t get them brownie points derived from the fact that most have no idea how to really enjoy themselves or be happy at all for reasons that are not reasonable turning into this desire to just seem overly superior and dismissive -
@AleCx04 personally I like to showboat
Some of these people your describing project negative qualities to willfully rub people the wrong way because they’re hiding things as well -
@ars1 this is what i am going for as well. Brilliance can only take someone so far. At one point someone says "wow, this person is a dickhead"
But I guess this was something that seems to hurt a lot of people here. as if brilliance would save them from being complete social outcasts -
@AleCx04 I have social skills empathy and I am nice guy that’s why I don’t like people. Literally fuck all of you and your talking. I have group of friends and I know what I can expect from them and that’s enough for me.
Meeting someone and talking to people are not social skills. Social skills for me are knowing how bad and rooted person is after first couple of meetings so I can defend myself( and yes everyone is bad, even me, and everyone is just showing off to be liked ). Everyone everywhere wears a mask and if you can’t deduct who he/she is behind it you’re fucked before you say first word. Society will punch you, stab you and eventually kill you, no matter if that’s your family or not. Talking to people is no skill, social interaction is no skill. Go to the zoo and play with lions because it’s the same.
Talking to people and deducing who they are behind their masks is something everyone should have. Unfortunately it requires lots of talking, making yourself a dumb many times, being trashed and eventually landing on street couple of times without money so you can find real friends. So fuck society cause society is hell on earth. -
Oh man, ok you have some points, but your mindset is exactly the way managers are wanting us to think like.
If you like social interaction, choose another job. Coding is about thinking on the zone, high concertation, and things you cannot share with others unless they are on the same field with you. Each time I tried to explain things to non tech guys, it made things worse.
And this mindset, made the coding field of today a devastating domain of people try to be acknowledged and likeable for their eco-friendly etc. habits. JUST WRITE CODE DUDE. I do not care if you ride a bike . Did you see any spaceship engineer trying too much to show to you how eco he is???
We could be the masters of the world right now. Instead of that we have sold our sorcery to smartasses bosses for a better piece of bread each month, and we try to make people like us.
I agree that we are more than our profession. So, go out for a beer, and leave the coding mindset alone. You will not make friendships from job -
We veto people here when we interview candidates, almost always these vetos are based on character.
We don't want qualified candidates who are rude, proud of lacking social skills and have no intent of improving this aspect.
You have to be careful with the line you walk between "working on yourself and your character" and "staying true to yourself". Oftentimes statements such as "people need to accept me for who I am" are just "I am an unlikable asshole and unwilling to change" in disguise. Most importantly - no, people don't have to accept that or deal with you in general. This is just how you stay alone and how you earn a lot less than what your skills could otherwise get you. -
@Maer Well more or less everyone is unlikable asshole right now. That’s why people prefer working from home. Also that’s why there are more break ups after lockdown and there are more singles around. People are crazy, you hire only those who can behave normal during interview hours. I’d rather hire assholes cause they at least say the truth lol.
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@vane We've had this policy always, not just since covid-19.
Honesty doesn't require rudeness. The best and smartest people I ever worked with had high levels of social competence and yet never licked ass. They just voiced their criticism in a manner which didn't let the other party feel inferior.
To my mind the trope of devs "sticking to their true self", i.e. being assholes who are specialists in their field is just a self-assurance mechanism, because they do not want to work on their persona to develop social skills. Many probably don't even know how to.
Being an unlikable person does not serve anyone's integrity, all that is is a fallacy. -
@AleCx04 I agree on that one - a world with only devs wouldn't work. We wouldn't have anything to eat, no clothing, no shelter, no health care. We wouldn't even have computers, considering their supply chain.
One consequence of a society with that much workshare and deep supply chains for everything is that everyone is mostly clueless about most domains.
BUT! I don't know the regulations for plumbing (and there are a lot!), so I won't tell a plumber how to do the job.
One big frustration in particular with PMs and managers is that they don't know shit about our domain, but some don't realise that they don't know shit, mistakenly think it's easy, and then try to tell us how to do our jobs. This is what makes them idiots. -
@Maer Well maybe you’re right maybe not. I don’t know. I’m just pixelated avatar that claims that everyone is asshole. It just depends where you are and how is your day.
Like with all of this simulation around us. Be at right place and in a right time and you can make millions, meet nice people or lose life. It all depends. Entropy starts growing right after the decision that you picked your avatar. -
@gatoMalicioso I have absolutely no fucking clue what you are on about. But yeah! beeeeer!
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@Maer you nailed it right in the head!
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My two NIS. The whole "I don't need social skills, I have knowledge" tirade ignores the fact that social skills are knowledge.
I hate socializing outside of work, but at work I always like to know what other teams/departments do. So I go and introduce myself, and build working relationships with people I don't work with on the daily. Being on good terms with these people has saved me so much time - sometimes they tackled the same problem as we do, and can tell us what doesn't work. They can recommend software packages I didn't know exist, lend us equipment, do mechanical design for shit we need, build customized batteries...
I got so much assistance just because I came to say good morning and occasionally have lunch with people. It frequently happens that I can help them in 5 minutes with something they would spend a week on.
Helping different teams/departments work together on the dev-level, has at least as much impact as a misanthrope coding fast in the dark.
Why does the idea of having to develop social skills somehow seem to scare the fuck out of a large portion of you?
Is being a likeable human being such a weird concept? What do you expect? To people just validate your entire existence based on how good you can sit in front of a set of monitors and push code out? Thousands of monkeys can do that shit. Thousands of systems will eventually do such things.
for whatever reason the "I am a fucking asshole that can code" trope seems to be a "real thing" amongst developers. A mfker can know waaaaaaay less than you, have the same credentials (degrees etc) and will get the job because you were too busy building an online persona governing how better you are than everyone else. How "quirky" and Sheldon Cooper like you are. You think that makes you likeable? "i don't need to be likeable" <---- yes the fuck you are, because this shit is something in which people can be trained upon.
A team, regardless of how much you agree with this, can choose a person solely based on how well he/she/whatever clicks with them. You might be the end all be all of development, but if they don't like you or feel you will not be someone worthwile to be around, will not chose you. They will go with the charismatic newbie that can learn the same shit you so dear hold on to, because they are likeable.
Sticking to a merit based "I am the best there is" asshole mentality is a thing of the fucking past, boomer mentality. For which newer generations are parting ways with, with still profitable results. workable results. Production ready results.
Yet you chose to stick to a "I might be a quirky annoying fuck, but I am the best" mentality?
This is why you were bullied. This is why you can't get any dick, this is why you can't get any pussy, this is why you sit your ass in your little dark room trying to convince yourself that being lonely is a choice, not a situation in which you put your ass in. This is why I also dislike developers online.
Most of you might be the nicest mfkers on the planet when dealing with on a face to face basis, but if you put this shit on a screen for the world to see you will be viewed upon as some dickhead.
Fuck this "code is my life" mentality, shit is but a paycheck, a craft is not a glimpse into what you are as a person, but a way in which you make a paycheck. Molding your personality, based on what you do for a living, really?
Damn man, shit is just so fucking sad. So cringeworthy even.
question
y'all need to chill tf out