Ok now that I learned react and nextjs i just want to say that I FUCKING HATE REACT AND NEXTJS FUCK YOU THIS SHIT IS SO STRESSING AND MIND CONSUMING. I'D RATHER USE ANGULAR EVEN FOR A SMALL PROJECT WHICH IS AN OVERKILL THAN REACT. I'LL USE REACT ONLY IF IM FORCED TO USE REACT AND HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE.

I would say the exact same thing by swapping Angular and React.
I guess this is a matter of taste...

@react-guy why

Web developers ☕️

I also used to react like this to anything related to javascript. I woke up one day and found something. The language is not worth the anger. :P

@Lexter no man on this planet hates javascript more than i do

@b2plane Variable is variable, loop is loop, array is array, function is function. It is all the same. It's just sometimes more retarded than it needs to be.

@Lexter so is 2+2-2 = 2 but "2"+"2"-"2" = 20

@b2plane noone sane relies on implicit type conversions/checks
You can make any language look bad by using the worst practices

@devRancid no, because some languages are designed to be safe and make it impossible to use most bad practices.
JS on the other hand, is practically built upon bad practices, it’s in its core. It’s its foundation.

@Lensflare you mean fun-dations ?

@b2plane Am currently going through the docs, it's a brainfuck compared to Vue. Don't even get me started on jsx.

@soberGhost more like clown-dations

Weird take, it's usually the exact opposite with React and Angular (and certainly I know I prefer React any day of the week and twice on Sundays to Angular).

That said, I'm working on a project now where I've very deliberately stayed away from all frameworks and modern build tooling, not even using TypeScript, and using as few libraries as possible.

And you know what? This project is going smoother than any in a LONG time!

The performance is amazing (no packing, but it DOES do dynamic loading, so it's effectively code-splitting, and with long caching), the developer experience is gloriously simple, and things Just Work(tm) like you expect them to 100% of the time, there's no confusing layers of indirection when debugging...

Basically, it's how we used to do ALL our development years ago. I don't know why we ever stopped. All this shit we dump on top of it now isn't actually making our lives easier, we've simply fooled ourselves into believing it has.

@fzammetti on big projects with multiple developers and lots of interactions, systems like React/Vue/Angular forces the data to flow up-to-down in the tree, which guarantees a well thought design. Vanilla JS does not allow anything near that (unless you create your own React-like solution which would be an insane waste of time and reliability).
Typescript introduces type checking which is also a savior in big projects.

There is a reason why these have been invented and widely adopted. The mistake is to want to use them in every project, especially the small ones - mistake that I'm making more often that I would admit TBH

@b2plane well, why do you hate React compared to Angular?

You didn't really give any reason, so my guess is same thing than my reason : taste, with a bit of "I started with A, B works differently and I don't like it" 🤷

@react-guy Hard disagree. You can absolutely achieve this on your own, but what it requires is something that seems to be all too rare these days: developer discipline and good architectural leadership.

I'm talking from experience: I've guided development on three different highly complex applications over the last 15 years without using any framework as we know them today (they didn't exist when at least one of the apps was started and were just emerging when another began) and we've had zero issues as a result.

But, what it took was first laying down a solid foundation, and then ensuring compliance with it by talented, diligent resources as we went.

If you don't have those things then yeah, it might be better to just use a framework that kinda forces them on you, I'd agree with that. But it absolutely IS possible without them, and it doesn't require building the equivalent of React or Angular (perhaps fair to say you're developing a purpose-built "microframework" though).

@react-guy angular is smoother, more compact, highly scalabe, huge support and documentation and libraries, routes load faster, more elastic, robust etc. In fact i can barely find a flaw other than taking a big file size

@fzammetti IMO this is hardly a valid argument. You basically said "the best developers can do without it" Well yes, but the purpose of those frameworks is to make the job easier, accessible to more junior devs, and reduce human error in the design.

I also made complex apps with vanilla JS. That does not mean it was a pleasant experience. But yes, it is feasible...

And again : all the frontend developers in the GAFAM are using those frameworks. Do you seriously believe these people are clowns? They must see some advantages in using then, don't they?

@react-guy Honestly, I think we're in sunk cost fallacy territory. People have invested so much time into building, learning and using these things that they "can't possibly be wrong". It's a self-reinforcing delusion. I mean, don't get me wrong: I'm NOT saying there aren't benefits and positives. I'm just saying that based on 25+ years of experience and seeing how things have evolved, I'm not convinced that in many - maybe even most - cases that those benefits and positives significantly outweigh the negatives, if they do at all. And I don't think "well, everyone does it" is ever a valid justification. It's a good reason to consider something, maybe even have it be the default starting choice, but I think this is an industry where "everyone", no matter how smart, can be wrong, and the fact that we see seismic shifts over and over again kind of supports that.

I'm in college, and instead of learning useless chemistry, I'm studying HTML, CSS, JavaScript... I hate hate hate it with all my might. I've always relied on https://essays.edubirdie.com/chemis... thank goodness it exists. So I don't share your hatred for Java... For a change, try C, then you'll be praying for Java.