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To some extend I agree with you. But on the other hand I don't.
If a company collects my data so that they can improve their products because they know how I use them. That's great. I'm completely fine with that.
However, there are two reasons I am generally sceptic about sharing data.
1. in the past it has happened this data is used against the users as well. For instance there was a flight booking portal (something like momunda?) which would jack up prices of tickets for you if you had been looking at a certain date frequently.
2. I think that if you are sharing your data, you are doing the company with which you share it a service. And you should be compensated for that. For example, I can use YouTube and Gmail for free. Therefore, I am part of the product and I pay for this service using my data. This is fair. -
@ChappIO that's what i mean...all these great services from google and facebook are free...why do people think they are making this for fun? or for fairness? they need to make money, it's a business.
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This is going to be interesting to watch once @linuxxx and @runfrodorun get here. 😈
Anyhow, my 2 cents is that we do need net neutrality. Else ISPs will just run wild and extort money from everyone -
@Froot Of course we need it. The point is, I just wish the discussion about security and data collecting was more based on facts and less based on playing with feelings of app users.
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@nnmrts Totally agree with you there
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@Froot (just speaking my opinion, not attacking anyone personally)
Yeah this is your clearest bullshit. Let me elaborate later as I need to go to the supermarket right now! -
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@Froot Basically a complete generation now seriously believes a bunch of creepy men in a backyard are currently looking at exactly their dick pics and laughing.
Millions of indiviuals, and every single one thinks he/she is the most important. A whole generation of egocentric human (not-)beings. I just think that's kinda disgusting. -
@Froot The rant 😅
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@nnmrts To give you a sneak preview, account of a friend of mine got hacked. It was used for illegal activities that are on the law enforcement radar over here. His whole life is being ripped apart as we speak. If they'd not be gathering data aggressively like this he would probably be completely fine right now.
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It's the same thing as that fastfood/healthy food thing. I eat regularly at McDonald's for like ten years now, I'm still not fat, I'm healthy and I don't care if I die ten years sooner, I live now and here and just want to fucking enjoy this cheeseburger because it's good and woah it's cheap.
And I use so-called "unsafe" and "unfair" services for like ten years now. And what happened so far? Nothing. Well, not nothing, at least I'm happier with Google and WhatsApp than with DuckDuckGo and Threema. (Yes, I tried them.) Because they are free, existed long enough to be bugfixed and nice, and are fucking awesome. I choose awesomeness over douchebaggery.
I know, they aren't completely open source or they are even closed sourced, I know they don't have all this fun and open developer bullshit we all like so much (well actually Google has it), but they just are by far the better products and they don't harm me, so I use them. In fact they harm nobody. -
@linuxxx "his account was used"
Who was it? He himself? Well...
And what do you mean with "ripped apart"? -
@nnmrts haha yeah. You can't escape some goverment attached ones however.
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@bojo Sorry, but when someone bases his political mindset on some facebook discussions, I'm not sorry for them. It's about manipulation. Just don't get manipulated. Easy. Read other media. Don't trust websites. Don't trust computer programs. Trust facts. Trust friends, not strangers. Well, simply don't teach yourself on politics in facebook.
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@nnmrts No not him-fucking-self. Do you think I am fucking joking? I cannot go into much details because this is a public site but his account was used to do illegal stuff, due to google saving metadata (also for advertising) purposes) and directly reporting that to law enforcement he is dealing with legal issues (and not the most tiny fucking ones) right now. Ripped apart == I cannot elaborate on that for privacy reasons (the irony on this post) but let's just say that it's fucking bad because it is.
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Anyways, the thing is, the companies gathering data can use it however they see fit. In the UK there's a law in the works where you can only get car insurance if they can analyze your facebook contents to see if you'd be a careful driver. I don't have facebook in the first place so I'd be fucked. If you would say a lot of emotional shit, you might be fucked.
Who says this data won't be abused in the future? In america it's already normal for health insurance providers to pay Google to provide info of whether or not someone has searched for terms relating to serious illness, if yes, they can refuse you.
All our crappy secure messengers have failed? How the fuck have they failed? It's one of the few things that allows one to exchange information safely (seriously in the US govt alone you can only use certain apps for security reasons and Signal is one of the only ones you are allowed to use there. Oh right, for security/privacy reasons).
@jpichardo -
@linuxxx Well if he wasn't it, where's the problem? I also got arrested one time because my brother did something. I had nothing to do with it, I didn't even see what he has done, still I had to stay at the police station for several hours. I know, that the police can be an asshole often, but that's not Google's fault. :D
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@nnmrts I guess it's not your problem until it is. That's not quite the best approach.
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@linuxxx That's all not the fault of the companies. It's a governmental, legal and politic issue. Companies don't just hand them over to governments, in fact they are often very careful about it. But there are bittersweet laws and lobbies out there, which force the companies to give the data. Still, not their fault.
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@nnmrts whenever you think you don't have anything to hide, get out this article and read it again...https://bof.nl/2015/04/...
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@nnmrts "I am not important so I do not care if complete strangers have the ability to have a complete profile of me and sensitive information". The fact that you are not important (?) does not equal being left alone and happy by those who have some sort of power - governments, corporations,malicious individuals.
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Secure message apps work so well terrorist used them to hide the activities. When going to the store they collect data on your purchases. So they can create better inventory lists. The adverse effect was they started to raise prices on those items after they realized people would still buy them regardless. Data is power in the information age. That's why you should care. Your giving away what little power you still have.
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@nnmrts That depends on whether Google will get shitty and hand over my info to the government. Apply to every corporation/isp/data holder.
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@nnmrts Looks like you have not searched the secure solutions enough. Secure means not to leave any info, not to prefer different companies to trust but give them the same kind of sensitive data. Open source is your friend in this case, to ensure the product does what it advertises and that it is reviewable.
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@linuxxx Ah 😄 Almost got me scared there 😄
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ok let me put it like this:
* if 2 services r equally good, but one collects data without telling u what it's collecting and the other is not, which would u prefer?
* privacy laws, encryption, security, all cost time and money, if no one cared, no company/gov/group will have much incentive to develop them, and things will get worse
* although the probability that u will get hacked might be small, the probability that *someone* will get hacked is large, and that someone might not be important either. There was a rant posted here recently about someone thinking of sending a keylogger to someone who he said was a bully, neither of them are famous as far as I can tell
* if the service is good but collects data, I might well use it but first I try to think about the worst case scenario of data breach, and if it's either too unlikely or not too bad even if it happened, I don't care that much, but I still would prefer a service where I didn't have to worry -
Collect any amount of data and it can be used against you.
Selective collection can make it look like you're doing something that you're not. Like committing a crime. The more someone knows about you and your habits the easier it is to fashion a believable story.
I personally don't care to a point. Anonymized data is fine. Mostly. If you want to know what porn I watch go for it. If you sell that to my employer then I have a problem (I don't work in the porn industry). -
I don't get it, why this whole thing should bother me. I didn't commit a crime. If someone wants to "use data against me" he has to do it the proper way, over a court proceeding. At least in my country. I don't know what you all fear from? I understand being paranoid when you actually did something super questionable, but without anything? Why? How? In which fucked up country do you live that some dude could just come over and say "Look, you said this and this in WhatsApp last week, sooo uhm, yeah, you get executed now." Not even GoT has court proceedings that unfair. :D
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Because it can set a dangerous precedent, take the boiling frog as an example. I, personally, agree with willingly given data (surveys) and completely anonymously collected data, used for good. The possibility for something bad to happen with non-anonymously collected data is what's frightening, as the 'bad' it can do is huge. That's what I think.
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@sour maaan why did you delete it, it was funny as hell :D
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@ChappIO I am scared of the first one..
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Let's go old skool on this shit.
I live in the Netherlands and we were very good at documenting where people lived and what nationality they had. I'm talking pre internet around ww2. Guess what they used this data for when we got invaded by the Germans.
Like they all said up here you will care when it's too late. -
I would say I do use considerate amount of data hoarding companies but you could not be more off about this. By giving up information like this, you are literally at mercy of an unknown entity. Granted, you might not be some public figure, that doesn't underplay your vulnerability. I guess the issue is how people never really care until a monetary threat exists. The issue with data collection I have is my loss of individuality and identity. I am reduced a model's interpretation of my activity. As highlighted above, this information is then used to manipulate me. Trump's election was backed by an actual company literally manipulating news to form one would sway their decision over.
Using services might affect you because you don't care, but next time your feed has a news article, do judge the source.
Since almost every decision is made online, do think how did you get to that?
PS: A little further reading https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/... -
@bhedia Yeah, I understand. Hm.
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@nnmrts It's not google's fault indeed but the data they collect can actually (and companies in general) have consequences.
On another thing, imagine I have don't have facebook (choice) and have a browser without addons. Then why is facebook still collecting data from me through sites with facebook buttons etc? I deffo did not give any consent and it's my browser so why?
Same goes for google, I am blocking every domain/subdomain from all the major data collection companies solely because although I don't want to use google/facebook etc itself, they'll still collect my data if I don't block the hell out of them. -
@nnmrts GoT doesn't have court proceedings... You insult the queen you're dead. Anyway look up the NSa stuff about Edward Snowden. He detailed some contractors spying on spouses. Guess what the NSA does... Collect information. It's also used against consumers. Free market and all that. You make more money? I'll sell you a car at 3x the rate. Or won't even allow you in school because your family doesn't have enough equity and you won't likely succeed... (USA resident.) all this could technically be gleamed from information like this and somehow tied to you.
Related Rants
Can someone explain to me why the fuck I should even care about the fact, that some companies collect, use and sell my data? I'm not famous, I'm not a politician and I'm not a criminal, I think most of us aren't and won't ever be. We aren't important. So what is this whole bullshittery all about? I seriously don't get it and I find it somewhat weird that especially tech guys and IT "experts" in the media constantly just make up these overly creepy scenarios about big unsafe data collecting companies "stealing" your "private" information. Welcome to the internet, now get the fuck over it or just don't be online. It's your choice, not their's.
I honestly think, some of these "security" companies and "experts" are just making this whole thing bigger than it actually is, because it's a damn good selling point. You can tell people that your app is safe and they'll believe you and buy your shit app because they don't understand and don't care what "safe" or "unsafe" means in this context. They just want to be secure against these "evil monster" companies. The same companies, which you portrayed them as "evil" and "unfair" and "mean" and "unrepentant" for over a decade now.
Just stop it now. All your crappy new "secure" messenger apps have failed awesomely. Delete your life now, please. This isn't about net neutrality or safety on the internet. This is all about you, permanently exaggerating about security and permanently training people to be introverted paranoid egoistic shit people so that they buy your elitist bullshit software.
Sorry for my low english skills, but please stop to exist, thank you.
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