Pretty sure someone else said it before but: chose something else.

The market is over saturated with developers. There are plenty of other spaces in which you can work with computers and code.

Think: system administration, cyber sec (which also pays higher in a lot of places compared to development since resource security is a priority), networking etc.

I disagree.

The market is saturated with bootcamp grunts and otherwise really unqualified people.

Real developers should have no trouble, and rather, thrive in this climate.

So the bottom line should be: never settle, always improve.

I'm glad you both agree with "Dont"

@CoreFusionX a "real developer" has years of experience, there's fuck all difference between a university degree and a boot camp when you are walking into your first job.

Ones broader education, one's niche to a target role, neither make you a "real developer" on there own.

@C0D4

I most certainly was a real developer coming out of university.

But it took effort way past what university *required*.

Like on every job out there, if you want security, be the best among your peers.

I doubt juniors are gettin hired in this market

@CoreFusionX "but it took effort way past what university provided"

So... not a real dev on day 1? 🤷‍♂️

Both set you on a path, both require the self motivation to learn more then expected.

one may teach you more than the other, while the other requires a massive undertaking to get up to the same level, neither make you a real dev on day 1.

At least in Germany there is a massive shortage for devs.

I know my company isn't the only one who's trying to recruit...

@CoreFusionX one of our biggest problems are those fresh from university or the bootcamp grunts.

Simple reason: Those fresh from university lack experience, especially work experience (not necessarily dev experience). Work experience is especially needed cause we currently lack the time to integrate someone who has never worked in a company before.

Boot camp guys are a dangerous choice. You could get a good dev or at least someone with high motivation... or you could draw the numb nut who thinks they know everything.

High risk, even with code challenges and probation time.

Which brings me to one of the biggest problems in the market: When you recruit someone, you're always at risk of wasting time.

When resources are already stretched thin, the risk of time becomes the risk of overburdening everyone with integrating people.

In one of my rants I mentioned the hire hire, quickly fire strategy. It didn't pay off and it's canceled.

Cause yeah. It backfired as badly as I thought it would.

The market is oversaturated. With people with zero work experience, numb nuts and narcisstic bitches who think a company will bow down to their insane money expectations.

@IntrusionCM

Yeah. Never said the hiring process is easy or perfect. I've suffered it so.

I'm definitely not the best person to run it, but even if university doesn't provide "work experience" (which, considering, at least in my country, the last year is spent working at actual companies, is dubious), it's easy to tell who at least, has attitude.

I'm a fan of your hire, quickly fire policy, and it's what I'd have implemented too, but there is too much potential reputational damage, or so I was told.

But there's a huge difference between your uni student settling for the passing grade and giving it their best.

@C0D4

No one said it couldn't be done *while* studying at university.

@CoreFusionX I see your point, but even as a highly talented graduate of either bootcamp or traditional schooling, wouldn't you say that homies starting up will have a hard time getting their first job and accumulating time of experience because of said bootcamp code monkeys?

@IntrusionCM yeah but German people scare me more than Americans.

@AleCx04

We're pretty cuddly once we warmed up.

Though I admit that I was and will always be an oddball :)

@AleCx04

The way I see it, "experience" doesn't mean working in an office (there's office politics, but then again, so are there uni politics, if you are good in one, you'll be fine in the other).

For me, experience is having tried something before, hitting your head against a brick wall, and having devised a way to go around it or demolish it. Nothing stops or prevents you from trying and breaking shit.

@CoreFusionX There is more to being a developer than just the technical aspects. Some kid in a garage that build his own programming language would show promise, but may or may not pass an interview in which additional items are asked concerning working in the industry.

while I wish our industry's entry point was like you said, no "on the job" experience means 0 experience working on the industry.

@AleCx04

Well yeah, there is a disconnect between recruiter expectations and hireability.

I still think that telling newbs to never settle and keep learning and striving to be better is a more desirable recommendation than "simply don't".

@IntrusionCM

Would like to warm up again with some altbier in a bräuerei.

lol, the "real developer" qual. When I was in high school I woke up one day and said "I am going to be a programmer". I have been ever since. Sure I did some electronics work, but later phased into pure code development. Back when I started you just "did stuff" and were not concerned with titles. I wasn't until years later I started hearing what a "real developer" is.

@IntrusionCM There is no dev shortage in Germany. There is only a shortage of rockstar experts in all domains who are willing to work for close to minimum wage.

There's also a shortage of HR competency because even such a unicorn applicant would be rejected. HR simply wouldn't recognise the match.

Plus that you need to subtract the fake job offers that companies put out not to hire devs, but to look as if they were thriving and expanding.

If there were a real shortage, the market would react, and like with all scarce goods, the price would go up. Doesn't happen with dev salaries.

@CoreFusionX on that note, you can filter based on min GPA for educated people. How do you filter those bootcamp grunts with probably full digital education?

@Fast-Nop Not sure what alternate dimension you're living in, but the shortage is real.

Regarding dev salary: Again, the salaries have risen across the board, not just to accommodate inflation.

If you don't believe me, look it up in Google.

We're not looking for unicorns either, just plain simple devs for e.g. python / data science, java / backend development, typescript / frontend, python / ml & nlp, ...

No unicorns there.

But yes, we will not pay someone with under 1 year of experience / real work experience the salary of an intermediate / long term developer.

That's what some people expect... If you think a shortage allows people to demand unrealistic prices, you're wrong.

@IntrusionCM The salaries have by far not risen in a way that would suggest a shortage. If you can't find people, it's because at least one of these standard causes applies:

- Your HR pre-screens the candidates and, through HR incompetency, throws out good ones. You're not even going to notice them.

- You want experienced devs, but heaven forbid they're over 40, let alone over 50.

- You're not just refusing fresher junior devs a salary for an experienced dev, but also to said experienced devs. Bonus for expecting unpaid and uncompensated overtime.

- Your job listings combine several positions into one offer with completely unrelated skill sets.

- You're located somewhere in the middle of nowhere where you'd be about the only employer. With the cost of relocating, let alone buying property, that would pan out to be slave to one single company without alternatives.

- And, recent addition: WFH is seen as luxury, hence for management only.

@Fast-Nop

Ah... Yes. It's always the companies fault, never the devs.

:-)

All points do not apply, but I think I'm just gonna ignore further comments from your side regarding that matter.

@IntrusionCM Yeah sure, nothing applies.

Pro tip: bottom barrel companies get mostly bottom barrel devs because those who can choose do so, elsewhere.

Don't like that? Improve the company. Given that you still seem to be in the denial phase of dealing with reality, that's going to be a long way.