I'm just finishing my bachelor's degree in computer science in Germany. I love programming, especially for Android. I am working on a really cool note-taking app for my bachelor thesis and I love. A few weeks ago I started looking for jobs, I thought this would be easy. Why is this not easy?! Does no company need help with developing an app?!?! I googled jobs and opened the first few pages on the browser then I chose a city in Switzerland because I read that's where developers make the most money. Then I had to write a CV, what the fuck am I supposed to write in the CV?! So I wrote what languages I had dealt with during my studies and I wrote that I now speak German English and Hebrew. I had to upload the CV for EVERY SINGLE COMPANY and sometimes I had to write a cover letter for a companies I don't even know much about. WHY IS THIS SO ANNOYING!!!
I'm the last few weeks I've been getting emails rejecting my application, such a waste of time. I would love to work with people I'm just so bored sitting at home all day without much motivation to program alone, I need company and a company to pay me. I've already wasted a few months and I just can't believe that the market is so terribly organised. I could be getting so much work done, all I need is people who are a little bit motivated! I'm just so frustrated that everything works so slowly in this market...I even tried looking online for people who just want to talk about programming Android apps, NADA I just couldn't find anything... Well that's it if you have a job offer for me just hit me up I'll do anything...tiny.cc/chagai is where you can find my contact information I will literally consider even working in North Korea I just don't care where I work..

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    try www.yooture.com for job hunting in Switzerland. You upload your cv once and you just press the button "Bewerben". Makes it simple.

    However swiss companies love to not having to deal with third parties like recruiters. As it's expensive.

    I can recommend you the facebook group English Speaking Jobs Switzerland for it's manual on how the swiss job market works.
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    Now imagine to find job as C programmer thats not embedded crap. Yeahhhhhhh.
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    @Haxk20 Isn't embedded really the only real use for C currently? I mean, sure, there still is OS Development, but what else? C++ seems superior for practically all business use.
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    @PrivateGER even in embedded stuff is done in C++ these days.
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    @PrivateGER It sadly is. But you know me. Im die hard for C. Fuck C++ and up. Python programmers will never understand the pain when your array overwrites your variable thats right after it in memory even tho it should seg fault and you are wondering why the F it assigns crap to it.
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    @nitwhiz :O No no no no no no no no no no no no no no

    Haxk20 cries in his chair when reading the comment. C. C is so amazing. Nobody appreciates the beauty of C anymore.
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    @Haxk20 I C what you did there.
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    @Demolishun unintentionally but yes.
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    @Haxk20 i love C, too. But C++ has it's advantages, you gotta give it that.
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    Crappy CV because too lazy to google how a CV works. Crappy cover letter because too lazy to google how cover letters work and to check out the company. Then wondering about rejection. Yeah sure.
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    @PrivateGER C is like C++ without the bullshit, and especially for embedded, you don't need people who are afraid of hardware and instead like to fap off over bullshit abstractions.
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    @Fast-Nop why does it matter what the company does? And what does a crappy CV mean? I have a bachelor thesis and a GitHub project what else is needed?
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    @chagai95 You seriously need to google how ALL of the application process works. Or just live with being rejected - it's not like companies would be yearning for just another fresher. *shrug*
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    @Fast-Nop just another? How many people finish a bachelor degree? I'm not asking to make millions a year, just a decent job.
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    @chagai95 No company is actually looking for freshers, it has always been that way. What you need to get out of your head is the attitude that you are the latest hot shot on the market that everyone has just been waiting for since the invention of sliced bread.

    How to make a proper country-specific CV -> google. The CV is usually generic for all applications.

    The cover letter has to answer three questions. How did you find the job ad, i.e. some reference number or whatever, so that the HR drone can easily associate your application with a position.

    Then, why you think this specific company should choose you. And third, why you want to work in this specific company.

    The cover letter has to be tailored per company. Google about the company, find out what they do, how it relates to you.
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    @chagai95 Also, next to nobody actually scans through Github deserts, and even if, that would be the tech department, but you need to get past HR filtering first. GH doesn't help there.
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    @chagai95 Many, many people actually have a Bachelor degree.

    Yes, it's good you have it. Yes, it's more many people have done. But unfortunately, in your field (CS / IT) probably the most have it (or something equivalent) and some either have prior job experience or even have a master's degree (however each company values that differently).
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    As app developer from Switzerland...

    ... app development market isn't that big
    ... plain Android apps get more and more replaced by cross plattform frameworks like Ionic, Xamarin
    ... welcome to life, if writing a proper CV and cover letter is annoing you, than you will have hard times in the world of employment, it's not all nice and fluffy
    ... you have it harder finding a job than a guy living in Switzerland, because I guess already people already living here get preferred
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    @Fast-Nop seems to be roasting op but really he's giving a helping hand.

    And like @blubberfish said, welcome to life. Don't assume a bachelor degree or anything can give you much, or even enough. In the job market, you at least need a bit of presentation skills. CV and cover letter is your first step. I too find that annoying and time wasting but it's just how it works.

    I am indeed looking for my next job since I'm not very happy with my current one. It's the same kind of pain I'm going through. The difference is I know it's gonna be painful.

    You know what, here's a harmful piece of advice. Copy n paste this rant and attach it to one of your job application and see how it goes. If you feel like they reject you anyway, why not do that? You may stand out with a surprise factor! But mind you, surprise can go either way. They may blacklist you lol
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    I'm reminded of someone telling me that folk on average spend about 10 seconds I think it was, reading your CV / covering letter, so if you can't put over in that limited space the key things as to why they should hire you and not someone else, they probably won't read the rest of it.

    Kinda like dating profiles I imagine..

    You might also want to be different in some way, eg. pink paper CV, triangular.

    At least 14 point font size, or older folk won't be able to read it so easily. :-)
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    @Nanos I believed that too, until recently. I was told my resume was too brief. Yes I tried to keep it short. Then I had a think... Maybe for roles that require more experience they are happy to read more.
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    It's hard isn't it !

    I listened to folk whose day job was reading CV's, as previously I had included lots of detail in my CV's.

    Shortening it didn't seem to make any difference..

    As such I don't know what the answer is !

    Apart from, I hear a lot of folk get jobs because of who they know, not via the CV route.

    Last job I got I asked what it was they liked on my CV..

    Their reply was that I turned up for the interview, so I got the job...

    Eg. Nothing I wrote on the CV was of any importance at all !

    The job had been misfiled in the wrong category, so 3 positions, 3 people turned up, all 3 got a job !


    (And why I search all job categories for mis-filed ones..)
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    @Fast-Nop pretty mich said it. You need to get passt HR, that the technical people eben take a look at you. They might care about github, if your cover letter/CV Looks promissing, but HR doesn't.

    Also fuck your bachelors degree! What does a bachelors degree a hiring manager? Will it write code for you? I was involved in hiring devs before and if I was able to choose, I'd go for a dev with practical experience, a person who either worked before or did an apprenticeship (Berufslehre).

    I know it's hard to start in the real works after being in academia, so let me point you in the right direction:
    1) create a CV. There are numrous examples in Microsoft Word or you could generate one ex. at https://www.lebenslauf.ch/de
    2) if you're to lazy to do in the required hours to get past HR, work with a recruiter. Ex. For it in Switzerland there's https://www.yellowshark.com/de
    3) don't make it all about the salary. Tell them that you're looking for an oportunity to grow as a developer, and Switzerland (I asume Zürich?), has such oportunities, yada yada yada. If you only focus on the monetary aspect you probably won't be Seen as a viable candidate.
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    @chagai95 want to talk about programming? There's devRant! And look for similar communities on Reddit. There are subreddits for programming, programming humor, Android, mobile development, etc.
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    I've just taken a Look at your website and github account.
    I'd suggest you to do multiple things to Look more atractive.

    1) your website doesn't look "professional". I'm okay with it not bring flashy and all, but Cut the Crap about contacting you in FB/Whatsapp/etc.
    2) get an own domain and through that an email address, it looks way more professional.
    3) describe what the app does, not just download instructions. You can also use images (yes even a video/gif of a screenrecording of an app user!)

    1) Kind of the same as the 3rd point about your website. Put some effort into the README.md file!
    Here are some examples:
    - https://github.com/codepath/...
    - https://github.com/todoroo/astrid/...
    - https://github.com/pockethub/...
    2) publish the app to the play store, if you have never done that. Why? Just to be able to tell potential employers you know how to do that!
    3) you currently have just one project on github. This looks a lot like your average student repo that doesn't. Really likes or knows how to code. Put up more of your work.
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    If the applications reflect that attitude it's easy to get rejected.
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    Few tipps if your looking for jobs in Zurich

    ... search for Junior opportunities, which explicitly take people directly from studies
    ... you can excpect around 85K/year
    ... do not use recruiters if a job is also available directly on a companies website (they have to pay twice your monthly salary)
    ... be aware that flat, food and so on is really expensive in Zurich, so the good sounding 85K get eaten up fast
    ... photo in your CV is normal in Switzerland
    ... you don't have to write cover letters, if that is not demanded. A few good sentences in an email is also okay.
    ... many companies publish der jobs on jobs.ch
    ... do not write salary expectations in your CV as Junior, they will make you an offer after two interview meetings
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    @nitwhiz @Haxk20 nah C++ hast too many restrictions. And all that template shit.

    C is a very simple language. maybe even the most simple of all. It gives you tools to work with and you combine them to get the job done. It doesn't care if you want to sink a nail using a lawnmower. You will just have to live with loosing a limb or two.
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    @fuckwit Indeed. C is love.
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    Another proof of how much degree is worth ;) @fast-nop @root
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    @blubberfish I don't see why people living in Switzerland would get preferred, this is IT we're taking about I like to think people are a bit more open minded in these areas...I mean getting a visa is such an easy process for me. I'm don't think I'll have a problem in the working industry the big difference between writing applications and working in the real world is that I get paid for working.
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    @Fast-Nop that is so annoying, why the hell do I need to think about getting through HR?
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    @eeee believe me I already looked up everything everywhere ;) but thanks anyway!
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    @Wack thanks, I think I'll do that.
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    @blubberfish thanks for the advise, I already did all that but got no interviews...
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    @chagai95 As far as I know it is more administrative effort for them. You shouldn't need a visa as EU/EFTA member?
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    @blubberfish you don't need a visa for the first 3 months and after that you get it yourself.
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    @blubberfish Junior? Earning 85k!?
    That's what my previous job paid me as a senior dev! (USD, cheaper area). What the crap.

    Different priced markets still blow my mind.
  • 1
    @Root depends on where and what you do. Frontend webdevs get around 60-65k, but if you work for example at a bank, you can warm crazy amounts. I know of a junior dev at a bank that made about 100k
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    @Wack ashdhosgfhadlfl
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    @Root Yeah but you have to see, that especially in Zurich, the costs of living are high and the purchasing power doesn't need to be higher. Look at San Francisco, you earn a shitload, but flats are expensive as fuck.
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    Just to add my two cents: Your website is not good.
    Do not link to it if you want to be taken seriously.

    You do not put "PLEASE WRITE ME ON WHATSAPP, FACEBOOK OR TELEGRAM!" in all caps if you want to appear even remotely professional.
    Small tip: you'd be better off using "Contact me using" instead of "please write me" here. "please write me" is not valid English.
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    @chagai95 Because they drown in applications, and if they were to forward every application to the tech department, the tech folks wouldn't get anything done anymore.

    The problem is that most of the applicants are not actually fit for the job. Oh I watched some shitty $TECH webinar the other day and hacked a few demo lines into some editor - now I can add $TECH to the resume, right? That's what they see a whole fucking lot, so they try to filter.
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    @SukMikeHok Necessary != sufficient. If you had a degree, you would have learnt that during the first year. *hrhr*
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    @Fast-Nop Degree != Experience. Some things you just learn on the job, not in university...
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    @PrivateGER thanks! I'll change that, I think that's my problem, I don't sound professional and I'm no expert at design but I'm pretty good in coding especially for Android so I hope someone will actually look at the GitHub Project and realise that...
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    @Wack Then also for you: necessary != sufficient.
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    @blubberfish where do I find such a job? That's exactly what I'm looking for. And I fine with 50,000 a year. Do I need to move to Zürich and go through the banks personally and just ask there?
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    @chagai95 lots of universities have a "career center", where they conduct (usually once a year/semester) Mock interviews (usually with hiring managers of companies in the area), perform CV checks, etc. If your university offenes that, go there!
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    @Wack did that, found nothing. But thanks!
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    @chagai95 wrong aproach! It's not about finding a job but gaining experience. Ask them why they would or wouldn't have hired you. Don't just go there to get a job, especially if you're looking for a job Else where, but Look at it as Kind of a free trial!
  • 1
    get an 3-6 month internship preferably in berlins startup scene.
    After that try Switzerland.

    Also have you've ever been in Switzerland? I've heard it's quite hard for Germans who have the expectation that the swiss are like the germans.
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    @heyheni OMG Berlin. What a shithole.
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    @Fast-Nop yes, but that will impress the swiss 😄
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    @heyheni Well he'd be able to show at least survival skills and being able to put up not only with the shithole, but also its batshit crazy inhabitants (minus the Swabian immigrants). OK I fucking hate Berlin, no point in denying I guess. ^^
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    @chagai95 To get a job at at a bank, you have to first style your plain html cv with css.... No one is taking you seriously with what you present at the moment.
    And better, because you have to upload your cv anywhere as pdf. Throw away your web/html shit, invest a few hours in building one with word (which looks good on A4) and get happy.
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    I already have a CV that's just an extra website I made to allow downloading my app...
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    @chagai95 I would be interested in having a look at it and give you some tipps.
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    This one is in German, I could still add a few things...
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    @chagai95 One thing I saw directly: Get a proper email address (firstname.surename@... or similar).
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    Isn't it more common in German to have the surname first? Anyway thanks! I just made two gmail accounts which forward to mine so I don't miss the emails and I'll just my resume.
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    @chagai95 Common for databases or other pieces if software (e.g. "Surname, Firstname"), but not so much for emails - but to be fair, I don't see to many emails at work, but my personal have been "first.last" since a long time, my business is an abbreviation of it.
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    @chagai95 Some other things about your CV: Do you have more work experience? E.g. apprenticeships or internships?

    How many years of experience do you have with your technologies (e.g. Java, Android), are good you good at them or "have you just heard about it"? While I do NOT recommend writing something like "3 out of 5 points", giving at least a small hint can turn out to be quite useful for an employer. I would personally split Java and Android when doing this.

    Personal note: "Handy" is the colloquial term, "Smartphone" or even "Mobiltelefon" might fit better here.
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    Also... you have something to sell. Your knowledge and time.
    So think what employers want and what benefit they get if they choose to hire you.

    Right now you just list the features you have but not what the specific benefits are for the employer. You have to tell them to convince them.

    Do some research on copywriting. Selling stuff via text is a valuable skill to have. Imagine you would have to pitch an idea to your boss or investor. Or in your case your workforce.
    "Copywriters Handbook" is good book about that. https://amazon.de/Copywriters-Handb...
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    @sbiewald thanks I'll get to that as soon possible. I have been progressing with Android for about a year and a half now and I would say I have a pretty good understanding of it. I just finished studying and I haven't done any internship. I've been using Java for a bit longer, maybe 2 years.
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