We should begin refusing to work for companies who enforce using MS products. Need to buy actual desktop office license because their software doesn't accept web-edited elements? Pass.

Seeing a "are you still there" message in MS teams, or figuring out what other browser to use since you already have several MS accounts? Pass.

Azure devops and no way to expand the code during review?
Yup, pass!

Enough of this BS. People who opt for using MS software don't care about their users nor contractors' experience. We shouldn't care about those people.

VMs are a thing.

Microsoft’s code quality has always been low, but in the last 15 years…

I am curious what you think "we" means in the context of devs. "We" to me is loosely bonded group based upon shared experience. "We" ends at the paycheck. If devs refuse to use MS products then it will create an opportunity to shovel shit for higher pay.

I have a very different experience with MS development.

Having used their tools since around 1990 I find them very good and I come from Turbo Pascal before that.

I have also used eclipse and aptana (eclips for pascal) and MS tools have generally worked better.

So I think it depends.

Yes MS have pushed some bad stuff but their dev tools have always in my experience been very good.

And remember, they started out building dev tools before they turned to operating systems b

MS products are inferior to the competition but close enough for management. Has been that way since the 80s.

MS has always been focused on marketing to the customer and using that to leverage decision makers to go with their products. Now they market to management and you end up with......

So, because I use MS software for development, I don't care about my users? Yea, with all due respect, go screw yourself.

@Voxera Turbo Pascal! Woot, I learned a lot using that in my computer lab in high school.

As a MS hater myself (for the most part), I have to ask:
What?!

I was just about to rant about this. Honestly fuck Microsoft. All their products are absolute garbage, starting with the random bullshit automated update. Despite pouring billions of dollars, they fail to make any semblance on a decent UI starting with their absolute dump of a shell.

Meh Microsoft has some good products

Visual Studio non-code (i can't stand Code personally so not mentioning it )
.net 6, and C#
A lot of stuff on Azure, and the portal in general
Azure DevOps
Windows Phone 7.5 and 8.x
Fluent Design, and Metro before it

But yeah Teams looks like they didn't even bother about building it from scratch and bought a Slack clone for 1000 dollars and used that as a base. I mean even the ui design does not match their own..??

And uwp is dead, winui is not taking off (where's the flipping designer already?)

Windows also has its quirks, but I'll give them some credit because all the legacy software somehow keeps working.

With a product line-up like MS there simply has to be some great ones, some mediocre ones, a fair few shit ones and of course the outright pathetic ones.

But all in all, I don't get the complaints. If your employer forces you to purchase a licence, then switch employer. That's ridiculous.

@1g12345678 Got some examples?

@devdiddydog Old school examples. Amipro and lotus 123 where widely regarded as superior. I read an article back then that outlined Microsoft marketing strategy at the time. Get the public on board and "force" management to get what people want.

Current example. A friend worked for microsoft and they would market and really push as many of the products as possible to management since they "work better together".

I am certainly not the most knowledgeable person but it does line up with this post. Or appears to. Ultimately, there is no perfect solution to anything. Personally, I got no skin in the game and this is just my two nickels worth.

@1g12345678 marketing wise they have done some very dirty things, and there are tons of shitty windows software, but not all of it is MS.

But their dev tools in my opinion have always been good and C# and Typescript are my favorite languages.

And I have used quite a lot of langs over the years ;)

Including java, c, pascal, basic, javascript and elexir.

@Voxera I in turn come from Slack/Mattermost and for example Teams is a decisive downgrade.

AzureDevops is a joke compared to gilab/github/bitbucket. We're in 2nd half of 2022 and MS is still deciding whether expading the code during review is worth it.

Office vs google suite: Paid, overcomplicated and with all the mess with MS accounts. Compared to google which "just works" and you don't need those advanced word/excel features 99% of the time.

I don't have a doubt MS tools are better than eclipse, but to be honest: this bar is not set very high ;)

@NotJeckel Now I know this rant should be more specific.

I strictly refer to companies who FORCE you to use MS products. Like being FORCED to buy and use Office because they do not accept alternatives (for example have a set of documents editable only in word).

I don't have an issue using VSCode for example, or TS as a language, and between Mac, Win and Linux, I am still finding Windows the best for all-rounded dev work including some design and driver compatibility.

But when I have to use teams which decides to log me out during a meeting because fk you user, or review code in azure devops, which basically means I can as well just checkout the PR my side and do a diff in something with any semblance of workable UI, then an inner demon wakes inside and I really have enough of that BS.

@MSsucks2 I totally agree that slack is better than teams and I rarely use office, andwe do usejira, bitbucket and team city currently.

So no not everything MS does is good, but everything is not bad either :)

And yes, eclipse is not to hard to beat :P

@Voxera I never said that all their software was bad. I have nothing against C# but when it first came out it would only work on Internet Explorer....

@1g12345678 c# never worked in internet explorer?

They did try to push vbscript as a browser language fir a while just like google tried with dart.

You might think about activeX that only worked in IE but that could be built in many languages, or silverlight, but that was a plugin like flash and did work in many browsers to begin with.

@Voxera I could be wrong. From what I recall, 20 years ago, when c# first came out it was tied to the .NET framework and that framework was tied to windows and IE only. I remember our teams had to install IE that we used for one application. But, again, I could be very wrong. I did try to look it up but it took longer than 2 minutes sooo....

@1g12345678 C# was released along with Net Framework yes, but was intended for building windows programs, not web pages.

What you might think of was that it was used in asp.net for the backend of a web site, but that was not tied to IE as such.

But yes it was windows only until they released net core.

There was the mono project that ported much of framework to linux but not everything.

But the actual c# language was never actually tied to windows as proven by the mono compiler running on linux.

@1g12345678 There was some features in net framework that could use IE and if the application in question used those you would need IE, but I used Firefox when I needed to show any html since those dll files was easier to bake into the installer ;)

@Voxera Thanks!

@1g12345678 Funny thing about Microsoft / Bill Gates back in those days. After reading a bio about him I realised he wasn't just a silent, goofy nerd that liked to play with computers. The guy was ruthless and borderline mean - like old mate Sucker-berg.

@Voxera Great trip down memory lane there! You know your shit.