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One thing that's worth noting with devs is that, no one can judge how shit someone is at coding before they get hired.
People walk around with 5, 10, 15, 20 years of experience but it's possible that they don't even basics of git. -
@SidTheITGuy Absolutely. It all comes to the attitude toward study, plus if someone is a fast learner or not. If you have both, you can overcome and get into most of the IT industry positions even if you get hired without knowing shit.
My rant was more pointed toward a general programmers quality that I found.
Everyone fells like needing to prove and to experiment on real job projects, putting shit onto others that have to deal with their code. It's not that hard to do readable code, it all comes to common sense and a few rules, but apparently common sense is a too subjective matter that most lacks and this will always be a problem.
A simple example:
A new dev we have (and that I personally interviewed) is a quick learner and a great student and quickly smashed the technical debt.
But whatever he sees in business projects he takes it as ain industry standard and puts in every project. He bloats projects with useless overengineered patterns all the time. -
@SidTheITGuy keep in mind most boomer engineers out there don't know what git even is... linus open sourced it in 2005
it sucks to say, but a massive part of the corporate world is still run by some sort of FTP / "other" VCS of sorts abominations -
@IHateFrameworks overengineering is a stage I think all programmers go through... when you really start to get it, you get excited and overdo it. then eventually you get old / tired enough to realize 99% of the time it's just not worth it (most people, as you said in your rant, prefer stroking their ego with advanced, fancy, and cryptic annoying patterns than writing good clear code that just plain works)
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Git any example projects you can share to evidence your claim / educate those you're frustrated at?
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sideshowbob76782356dAt some point in the future, taking into account the great ALLMIGHTY CLOUDS and AI we will all just describe systems and write tests and handle credentials. It is all very scary.
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IHateFrameworks117326d@sideshowbob76 I hope it happens soon. This bandwagon of shit developers needs to die soon.
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sideshowbob76782326d@IHateFrameworks Generative code will improve over time. We need to understand how we can manage this new capability on a day today basis. Tests is the only thing I can imagine that will be able to contain this force.
The whole cycle will consume a lot of power though. Since it has to run all the time.
It would be an interesting project.
But we are not there yet. So I am not worried at all. And the thing has to be very small to be understandable. -
IHateFrameworks117325d@sideshowbob76 Well, actually we are at some point. I absolutely hate webdev with guts. And so, I use GPT and Copilot to make all the bovine and tedious work. Saves me a lot of time and frustrations I must say.
Beside my own personal advantages, this lifts off lot of work from a senior dev that a junior could do, thus eliminating to a certain percentage (quite high i must say) the need to hire new juniors. -
sideshowbob76782325dFrontend is a stopper. That is my experience. After 20 years in the business. Ish.
When they ask me now if we should develop a custom solution in this and that project I say hell no. Don’t you dare motherfuckers! We will be stuck with that shit for years and years! There are specific exceptions though and they are many (even in big corp).
It’s 2023. And we still can’t customize the UI to suit just me. Fuck! The Microsoft Word guys did it! Fucking 20 years ago… I mean Word!
It’s stupid.
Web frontend is stupid.
I get high blood pressure just talking about it…
[CONCEITED RANT]
I'm frustrated than I'm better tha 99% programmers I ever worked with.
Yes, it might sound so conceited.
I Work mainly with C#/.NET Ecosystem as fullstack dev (so also sql, backend, frontend etc), but I'm also forced to use that abhorrent horror that is js and angular.
I write readable code, I write easy code that works and rarely, RARELY causes any problem, The only fancy stuff I do is using new language features that come up with new C# versions, that in latest version were mostly syntactic sugar to make code shorter/more readable/easier.
People I have ever worked with (lot of) mostly try to overdo, overengineer, overcomplicate code, subdivide into methods when not needed fragmenting code and putting tons of variables.
People only needed me to explain my code when the codebase was huge (200K+ lines mostly written by me) of big so they don't have to spend hours to understand what's going on, or, if the customer requested a new technology to explain such new technology so they don't have to study it (which is perfectly understandable). (for example it happened that I was forced to use Devexpress package because they wanted to port a huge application from .NET 4.5 to .NET 8 and rewriting the whole devexpress logic had a HUGE impact on costs so I explained thoroughly and supported during developement because they didn't knew devexpress).
I don't write genius code or clevel tricks and patterns. My code works, doesn't create memory leaks or slowness and mostly works when doing unit tests at first run. Of course I also put bugs and everything, but that's part of the process.
THe point is that other people makes unreadable code, and when they pass code around you hear rising chaos, people cursing "WTF this even means, why he put that here, what the heck this is even supposed to do", you got the drill. And this happens when I read everyone code too.
But it doesn't happens the opposite. My code is often readable because I do code triple backflips only on personal projects because I don't have to explain anyone and I can learn new things and new coding styles.
Instead, people want to impress at work, and this results in unintelligible, chaotic code, full of bugs and that people can't read. They want to mix in the coolest technologies because they feel their virtual penis growing to showoff that they are latest bleeding edge technology experts and all.
They want to experiment on business code at the expense of all the other poor devils who will have to manage it.
Heck, I even worked with a few Microsoft MVPs.
Those are deadly. They're superfast code throughput people that combine lot of stuff.
THen they leave at you the problems once they leave.
This MVP guy on a big project for paperworks digital acquisiton for a big company did this huge project I got called to work in, which consited in a backend and a frontend web portal, and pushed at all costs to put in the middle another CDN web project and another Identity Server project to both do Caching with the cdn "to make it faster" and identity server for SSO (Single sign on).
We had to deal with gruesome work to deal with browser poor caching management and when he left, the SSO server started to loop after authentication at random intervals and I had to solve that stuff he put in with days of debugging that nasty stuff he did.
People definitely can't code, except me.
They have this "first of the class syndrome" which goes to the extent that their skill allows them to and try to do code backflips when they can't even do code pushups, to put them in a physical exercise parallelism.
And most people is like this. They will deny and won't admit, they believe they're good at it, but in reality they aren't.
There is some genius out there that does revoluitionary code and maybe needs to do horrible code to do amazing stuff, and that's ok. And there is also few people like me, with which you can work and produce great stuff.
I found one colleague like this and we had a $800.000 (yes, 800k) project in .NET Technology, which consisted in the renewal of 56 webservices and 3 web portals and 2 Winforms applications for our country main railway transport system. We worked in 2 on it, with a PM from the railway company.
It was estimated 14 months of work and we took 11 and all was working wonders. We had ton of fun doing it because also their PM was a cool guy and we did an awesome project and codebase was a jewel. The difficult thing you couldn't grasp if you read the code is if you don't know how railway systems work and that's the only difficult thing.
Sight, there people is macking me sick of this job
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