I had to share it

@aviophille who new that building more complex technologies upon ancient tech from 1995 would be a bad idea?

We might have a robust, descriptive HTML/CSS syntax if they had skipped the JS part, and we would have been spared Webpack and React and the rest of the ugly scripting bullshit.

forgot about typescript / coffescript / clojurescript / webassembly invented to fix javascript

@aviophille question, in which relation does the complexity of the solutions stand with the amount of websites?

This is hilarious, great post!

@aviophille XSL the descriptive language that still has imperative loops IIRC, but when(!) you want to add an else section, you need to refactor <if> to <choose><when></when><otherwise></otherwise></choose> and it must be well-formed XML, so no way to omit closing tags even where they could be implicitly obvious = obsolete like in HTML.

But still HTMX/Vue and all the many other markup based minimal logic template languages are much more compact and readable than some overengineered React projects.

P.S. Please ignore "some" and "many" , we need rants and flame wars! 🔥🔥🔥

@aviophille other than being overengineered crap, honestly no

@aviophille what are you talking about? IP and TCP is perfectly fine. HTML/CSS+JS is the problem.

Right, I forgot you don‘t know the difference between all of those.

okay svelte runes is a new one for me... just took a look at it; looks like they tried to copy react hooks 4 years later 😂

@aviophille isn't that EXACTLY what you did with my question?

@aviophille i'm talking about not answering the question. You cannot just counter a question with another question. That's not how that works.

@aviophille don't make a fool of yourself man..

a question is a request for information. sometimes it is different from a rhetorical question, since it doesn't need any answer. the specific type of question i asked is classified as a open question. You _can_ answer this with a request for more information. but that's not what you did. You merely repeated my question, while rephrasing it. So not actually answering it.

Wikipedia has great articles about that, you can read about the semantics of the english language, if you need more info on that 👍

@aviophille QUIC invented to fix TCP

@aviophille to put it simply:

you did not answer my question.
And i have no idea what you're talking about now.

I genuinely had (and still have) no idea, how the amount of websites is related in any way, shape or form to the complexity of the solutions at hand.

For context: In other areas of software development, exactly the opposite happened (looking at the SAP world, and in some part the conventional Languages, such as C++ (if you disregard Boost, which is more like C++ staging anyways), or PHP for example) the languages powering it got more robust, but that's basically it.

I mean it's not that these millions of websites communicate in any meaningful way other than the ways established since ages.

And it's not that the very principle of a website changes every few years. A Website is just that, an interactive UI (nowadays called webapp), that people can make stuff with in the internet. In my opinion it doesn't need anything fancy.

Frameworks invented to try and awaken the AI god Cthulhu. The Aztecs tried to warn us and left before shit got bad.

2 lessons I learned from history:

Life is too short to learn the latest JS framework, library, tool…

If you wake up and think you can solve the problems of web development by creating a new wonderful JS framework/library/tool this can make the perfect Todo list in a single line… well today you should sleep more

I am so outdated that I thought "Solid", "HTMX", "React Suspense" were some made up words

tech-startup landing pages aren't websites. they're pits of despair.

@aviophille no i'm saying their scope didn't get out of hand. you can literally build a piece of software without needing any extensions, and maybe you get some benefits in fs access or stuff like that with newer versions. But the gist of it is, that it is and always was the same (and the same purpose).

The scope and purpose of js for example changed multiple times over the course of these years, and you can see that. But instead of abandoning one solution and choosing a better suiting one, the industry somehow stuck with js, extending it in the process instead.

But that is not my question, my question is, why this whole thing is in your opinion connected to the amount of websites in existence.

And to put it in perspective: Javascript for example is only used 3 times as much by devs as C++ (63% vs 22%). So that's making the "millionfold increase" irrelevant, you're talking about. It makes it even less of a point if we look at other (more) sane languages like C# (27%) or Java (30%)

@thebiochemic and to give it some context where i get the numbers from:
https://statista.com/statistics/...

obviously they need to be taken with a grain of salt, but i think it brings it across good enough.

@thebiochemic I want to kindly remind you that you are trying to argue with ostream.

@aviophille I didn‘t "call you name" you pathetic dumb monkey. Now I did.

@Lensflare i know, don't worry :)

@aviophille yeah not quite tho, the world nowadays consist more then out of x86 remember. The assembly were talking in web is JS, which is definitely not it's purpose. In conventional dev the purpose of higher languages is to make it independent of different types of asm used in different architectures. JS is a full programming language, which is piggy backed upon for no reason.

@thebiochemic agree except for "js is a full programming language".
It’s a crappy scripting language that is being abused as a programming language.

@Lensflare if we go back enough in time, that's certainly true yeah

@thebiochemic it has evolved, yes. But it’s still the same rotten core that can never be fixed.

@asgs damn, can you believe that, in a week, 2020 will have been four years ago 👴

@alturnativ 123123 cometh.

@aviophille I hate on js, not on people.

And I pity you dumb monkey for not understanding it despite being explained to you so many times.

LoL

@aviophille i see you're out of arguments already and start getting personal. Remember, you still haven't answered my question 😅

There is somewhat of conventional dev, which is pretty much what you do in a userspace environment (like apps), as much as there is web dev (building websites), internet dev(building the infra that websites run on), mobile dev (building apps for ios or android etc.), iot or integrated systems (arduino, ESP32 anyone?), mainframe systems dev (huge server, cluster + bunch of clients), os/firmware dev (or drivers for that matter, you know, windows kernel shit etc.).

There is no point in pretending web dev is the only thing on this planet, because it certainly isn't! And it certainly wouldn't exist without most of the other variations of software development.

You should maybe stop and wonder, how its possible, that the other variantions can use most languages in existence, but webdev is somehow stuck with js, which perfectly ties into my question again.

@thebiochemic

JUST ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION! lol ;-)

@Demolishun exactly 👌