196
dfox
1y

I wanted to post a note on devRant community etiquette and rule-breaking behavior we’ve been seeing lately to make clear it will not be tolerated. This is pretty much a rehash of this rant, https://devrant.com/rants/609739/... and also our official rules which I highly encourage people to read: https://devrant.com/rules

I’ve noticed an influx of a select group of members, mostly older users, expressing a distain towards other users or declaring content they dislike “shouldn’t be posted”, “please stop”, etc. If you find yourself about to post that, as per our rules, please don’t. It blatantly violates our rules and we are going to start cracking down on it much more. Whether you have 30k+ points or 10, we will apply the rules fairly to everyone and not give breaks to specific people, which admittedly I’ve done in the past.

If we see this behavior in rants/comments first we will give a warning (and the rant/comment will be deleted) and the next offense is a ban.

A valid question (even though I’ve answered it before) might be why does this need to be a rule? Simply put, it’s a rule for a number of reasons: posts like described try to inflict one’s will upon the entire community (even though we have a Democrat voting process...), they create confusion (almost every time they try to sound official, ex. “Stop doing this”), and beyond those two main reasons, they literally accomplish nothing because they offer no constructive methods of achieving what’s being requested, and only a fraction of the community will actually see it.

Here’s an example of what’s not allowed and what is allowed:

- Allowed: posting an issue on our GitHub issue tracker saying “I really dislike seeing this type of rant in my algo feed, here’s some ideas I have to improve the algo and add more personalization so I can see what I want.”

- Allowed: posting on GitHub issue tracker: “I found this awesome image similarly algo that I think can improve the ‘repost check feature’ - you guys should check it out and see if it might be good”

- Not allowed: “Omg stop shitposting windows update rants and Linux rants I hate them. Go post this type of rant because that’s what everyone really wants to see.”

One is constructive an the other is merely an opinion expressed as an enforcement of a self-made rule on the community and tries to tell other people how they should use devRant.

I cringe when people tell others how to use devRant because without fail when I see those posts, I go through that person’s rant/comment history and I nearly always see them using devRant in some kind of way I disagree with or isn’t exactly what I like to see. But that’s OK. I understand I’m not going to enjoy everything posted and I’m also not going to agree with everything posted. But I think it’s fair for those same people to then lecture on what isn’t appropriate to post on devRant, and it’s even more silly when their posts are sometimes irrelevant to development and the posts they are complaining about are relevant.

In the end, based on the large majority of feedback we get, we want to make devRant a place where everyone feels comfortable expressing themselves and doesn’t have to think about possibly getting ridiculed every time they post and that don’t have people trying to dictate what kind of ideas they are allowed to post. We also realize there’s types of content people don’t enjoy, but telling others not to post it is not the solution. We will soon be launching post type filters that will make filtering rants by post type possible.

Please let me know if you have any questions and thanks for reading.

Comments
  • 40
    @AlexDeLarge wow, thank you. I have to proofread better, what a stupid error lol
  • 4
    Most of this could be solved if we could filter based on the category of a post. You know that thing you implemented and then just kinda let hanging there.
  • 13
    @Condor express your feelings in what regard? That we should change the rules and that content shouldn’t be allowed? We don’t remove/discourage specific rants unless they break our rules or explicitly go against a policy we’ve set forth. You’re more than welcome to suggest rule changes/rule improvements/ways of accomplishing what you want to see in the issue tracker. That’s what it’s for. But like, from our perspective, just hearing “stuff shows up I don’t want to see” isn’t actionable for us and gives us no guidance on how to improve or even take a step towards improving that. Specifics are good and insights into solutions are even better.

    @Alice definitely, and that’s why filtering is out top priority right now. But like I said above in this comment, if you’re not liking what you’re seeing, then actionable feedback that isn’t trying to set policy in a seemingly official way is the way to go. We had someone the other day write up a rant that made him seem like he had to be a devRant team member, his language was making it seem like he was the official community policy director when in reality he had 0 authority.

    @sharktits like I said in the original post, that is coming very soon.
  • 7
    Thanks for the update. It was getting toxic from some people... Like some kind of moral policing of what is right or wrong based on what they want or don't want to see.
  • 4
    I absolutely agree, so guys! Just - - those rants, no need to shitpost even more
  • 6
    Ah sorry my attention span is way shorter than this post
  • 10
    Just to add one more thing here, I want to make it clear that we encourage debate (civilly) and this is not referring to rants that try to provide well-formed arguments and rebuttal.

    Example of rant that’s allowed and encouraged: “a lot of people have been talking shit about x lately, but I really don’t agree because of x y an z.”

    Example of rant that’s not allowed: “a lot of people have been posting x lately and this needs to stop, seriously no one wants to see it!!”
  • 3
  • 2
    @dfox Thanks for this. I do think this needed to be said again from an "official" source.
    An idea, to reduce these kinds of things:
    At sign up, you could be presented with these rules, have to scroll through them and press accept.
  • 1
    @dfox A question about the content filters. Do you think these filters will stop the core content from being buried in memes and reposts?
  • 1
    @namenlossss If you need this written down, then you really should re-consider basic human interaction.
    It should be common courtesy to respect other people and their content.
  • 2
    @theuser like @1989 says, different people like different types of content. You’ll be able to filter exactly what types you want to see if you want to do that. I’m not sure how that would lead to anything getting buried since it offers more personalization.
  • 3
    @1989 @dfox Core content is the content that promotes the community, in this case, rants. Memes and repost do not promote devRant in any way. I'm simply saying that devRant is increasingly becoming a dumping ground for content that buries the real good core content. Yes we can have filters, but that won't stop the recents tab from going that way.

    Maybe the content filters will help, but after posting over half a year on devRant, I can definitively see a clear difference between back then and now.
  • 6
    @theuser the levels of memes and reposts is more or less the same as it’s always been. There has been no increase in ratio any time lately (not to say overall levels haven’t increased, because rant totals have upticked as a whole), as has new users.

    Moreover, filters should make the content people want to see more visible. So if you only want to see what you call core content, rants, then you can see only that. This applies to recent too.

    Looking at your post history I seriously question your ability to declare “core content.” Would this be considered core content? https://devrant.com/rants/1188376/...

    I hate calling people out for rants I don’t like, but I’ll do it when they try to preach what they want to see here then don’t do anything of the sort in their own posting habits. That makes me mad like nothing else.
  • 2
    @1989 Why yes, that is my perspective and opinion and I do not like where devRant is headed.
  • 2
    @dfox Alright, fair enough.
  • 2
    @theuser I mean like we try to be lenient on what kind of moderation we do, but it’s just incredibly tough when we get suggestions that are literally “disallow/prevent the kinds of things I post” - and not even to call you out specifically and apologies that I kind of did, because I’ve seen the same argument before from other people.

    I just think most of the people who advocate for more content policing are the very same people who would suffer the most from it. Many of the people who trash memes and images (which are generally relevant to dev) make posts that are completely irrelevant to dev/tech and think it’s fine just because they don’t include a meme or are maybe just textual. I don’t agree with that argument and think it’s unfair in general.
  • 6
    👏 Community 👏 management 👏 is 👏 key 👏

    It isn't enough to make an app, you need to sustain it too! This means updates and community moderation. This is a fantastic step in the correct direction and makes me very happy to see!

    Love you guys
  • 5
    i though devrant was for devs ranting, i mean => DEV => RANT
  • 1
    @PrivateGER I don't, but as can be seen by the status quo some people seem to need it, sadly.
  • 3
    Phew, that rule might be difficult to obey for me when I see some picture copied off of Reddit 10 times day, often blatant reposts...
  • 1
    @tkore i am new, and still have A LOT of frustration to release and tons of rants to push (my life is weird as dev) and i really want devrant to stay focused on devs ONLY.
    If people want to rant about something devrant should fork itself to make a more general purpose platform.
    if they want stuff, they should pay for it or rant ! END !
    PS : this is a rant.
  • 6
    @tkore I think sometimes people remember things the way they want to or they simply look at micro-trends, ex they get triggered by a single day where they saw some reposts or avatar posts. Come on - avatar posts are not frequent - which is why I lean towards that as being the case. The same way I’ve heard “devRant is dead!!” 10 different times now when someone joins them the community and gives out lots of ++ and people post about it a lot. Never lasts more than a few days yet people get overly concerned when it happens.

    If we’re talking about “historical data”, I can tell you without a doubt the first ever devRant power user pretty much only posted memes and I’d say the first month or so he provided 50% of the content. So I’m very curious what point in devRant history there were less memes present.

    I also curate the weekly email every week nearly since the begging. I use the top of week sort. I used to constantly find images there. Now I sometimes have to go to the second page to even find any images. There is literally no evidence or statistic to say memes/images are posted at a higher rate now than they ever were. Evidence suggests the contrary.
  • 4
    And yes, I agree, quality is more important than quantity. But I enjoy funny images and so do thousands of other users. And they have since the first day devRant launched.
  • 2
    @dfox as ur in da team, can you let us explore ur graph :)
  • 0
    # of images in top rants is very easy to observe :) You can just head over to top sort and by week and count them up. There used to be MANY more images, which to be suggests the ratio has likely decreased.
  • 3
    @tkore Might it just be that you see these items in higher quantity because there is a higher quantity of users and rants?
  • 1
    Guys, if you use semantic web, it is normal .....
  • 0
    @AlgoRythm exactly - and I’ve also suggested numerous times that people who are very picky with what they see have the right to be, but those same people shouldn’t be using recent sort. That’s the whole point of recent sort. It really isn’t supposed to be good and quality will likely decrease as the app grows. Algo and top are meant for people who want to be picky. We have had to even moderate recent which we never wanted to do but were forced to by people having demands on what the quality of every piece of content should be. The moderation is light on recent, but does exist because of this reason.
  • 2
    @dfox self moderation based on downvotes would ease your life
  • 0
    And just to add - if anything, out content quality requirements have also increased for top. We used to allow the rare image that had little to do with dev to be placed in top if it was highly scored, but we stopped doing that and now remove any off-topic images from top. Which I think is a good policy, but I’m just pointing out the myth that “devRant is turning into an image dump” is simply untrue and we used to be much more relaxed in terms of what kind of images were allowed on the app. That criteria has gotten more and more stringent based on feedback from the community, but based on what I pointed out on top weekly, there’s no plans to make it any more stringent as we’re already seeing a decrease in good visual content.
  • 1
    @grubbering that’s what we have and what this post is about. This is in regards to people wanting moderation on high-scoring content.
  • 2
    @grubbering Downvote moderation is active and working.
    Downvote as offensive/spam and the score of the commenter decreases and dfox or trogus will show up and check the comment.
  • 1
    @PrivateGER the problem is about them been here to check, too much work for them !!
  • 0
    @grubbering Not really. The community is pretty good at self-moderating content. Oftentimes you'll find discussion as to why this content isn't good under bad content.
  • 1
    @PrivateGER hmm, smart community :)
    I am used to idiots unable to read confirmation emails correctly .... forgot that the community here is made of devs :D
  • 1
    @dfox for god sake accept bitkorn
  • 1
    @grubbering It's a very nice community simply because stupid people won't understand anything programming related here :D
  • 2
    @PrivateGER hhahaah ! It is why i am here ;)
  • 2
    We think the community does a pretty good job self-moderating, but we’re always trying to improve that aspect.

    For example, we appreciate high-quality textual/long-form rants, which is specifically why we prominently showcase our “stories” feature to make sure those rants can get some additional exposure.

    And that’s also why we added post types and soon post type filters. We’re all about getting quality content the most exposure to the people who will enjoy that kind of content.
  • 2
    @dfox i already enjoy so much, thx guys :)
  • 3
    @dfox
    Even though I don't visit devRant for the memes (I have other dedicated sources for that when I desire it), I think memes are not the biggest issue.

    I agree that giving useless shit to users posting memes and other content people don't like is not the right way to do it.
    But I really don't like upright stupid "content". And by stupid content I don't mean memes. I mean rants like these two examples, which I frequently down vote:

    "Age++"
    "How do I get more upvotes" or "Hi, I'm new, please upvote so I can get an avatar"

    The former is not the worst, but it triggers me and I get an immediate feeling of "Omg is this Facebook?"

    The latter is much worse though, and I've talked about this before.
    I must admit, that I'm a target of this etiquette rant in one specific case, where a user directly asked how to get many ++.
    I simply can't believe ANYONE thinks rants like that is quality content!
  • 3
    @aaxa rant :
    They have shit in the eyes.

    I registered today ...
    I ranted
    got avatar
    what now ???

    People like those you described are stupid, i would rise the limit further just to make them leave. We are here to lower our blood pressure IMO
  • 2
    @grubbering I agree.
    I usually keep my mouth shut, as last time I mentioned this, all I got was people assuming I was jealous over ++'s, even though I'm a big advertiser for removing the public ++ count.
  • 1
    @aaxa yeah, we don’t allow posts that request upvotes and our policy is to remove them, and we always do. As for rants that are simply “age++”, those generally get marked as spam and removed too.
  • 2
    @aaxa lol
    I didnt though devs were turning to hipsters or consumers, or maybe they start to be like the users they rant about ...
  • 3
    @dfox Then I think the criticism of my arguments was uncalled for on your rant congratulating linuxxx ++ count, as those kinds of rants and users was what I was afraid of.
    But that discussion made me feel just like the way I can imagine people feeling when getting shit on their posts.

    That aside, I've seen much more rants and comments asking for ++'es than what I did before.
    Also, I've seen such rants and "age++" rants getting well over 100 ++'es which I think is a bit sad.
    That said, rants that get that amount of ++ is usually (almost no matter what content it is) is from ranters with an already high ++ count that many people follow, which bribgs up another topic.

    That is just my impression, which is why there are a couple of things I was/is against getting implemented/ being a feature of devRant:
    - Follow feature
    - Public ++ count
    - Message system

    Removing the public ++ count would solve the two other issues though, and prevent them from doing any harm to the community at all.
  • 2
    @aaxa try not to click on the rants with ++ demands, then you shouldnt see them
    Or do like me, report :)
    I would love to report and rant them but well ,no time
  • 3
    @grubbering I always report them. My problem is that I care too much about this community to just shut up. I've been here almost since the beginning (AFAIK), so I really care about devRant not turning into 9gag or another social media
  • 1
    @aaxa i am new and i care too, you are right not to be silent.
  • 4
    Memes is not quality content as per most of the devrant users. I am very much confused here. What actually qualifies as a meme?

    I could very well describe my life experiences and attach a photo with it which explains/enhances that further, will that be called a meme just because there a "viral picture" attached to that rant?
    Example: https://devrant.com/rants/1211318/...

    What if I was working on something and suddenly I thought of a great pun/joke totally dev related which according to my knowledge has not been thought of (or let me put it this way, I haven't seen anywhere) and posted that on devrant? Does it get called a meme?
    Example: https://devrant.com/rants/1220030/...
  • 2
    I blatantly copied a picture from other sources and posted it on devrant which was a joke/humourous. But it was dev related and I really was expecting some comments on it from people I know on dev rant. Although it is in its complete sense a meme, can it not demand its own conversation on dev rant?
    Example: https://devrant.com/rants/1244417/...

    Then there are rants in their right sense where there is some personal incident invovled. But to only support their argument a picture is attached to the rant/post. Does it qualify as a meme?
    Example: https://devrant.com/rants/1153366/...
  • 3
    Then there are pure-breed rants in which there is no ambiguity whether they are rants or not where you are actually ranting about stuff you have a opinion on or really grinds your gears. According to you this is the only type of content which should be there on devrant. Just imagine how difficult a task it would be for the moderators to keep a check on such blurred lines on what actually qualifies as quality content.
    Example: https://devrant.com/rants/1180429/...

    With that being said, posts which are irrelevant && non-dev && personal should really be cracked down upon like asking for upvotes etc.
  • 3
    @dfox

    Its really great that you have put it out here. It will really also help to bring in check those people who are "in more power" and "more influential" on devrant actually bullying/shaming other users on content which doesnt suit their tastes.
  • 4
    Gotta say that I've been a perpetrator myself recently. Only once though and I had a personal good reason for it but of course, just a personal reason doesn't cut it.

    Just to be absolutely sure, I'm going to post a rant later on which will deffo start an OS war once again but I'll be using shitloads of arguments.

    Is that allowed? (@dfox)
  • 3
    @linuxxx ping me, i want to read it :)
  • 3
  • 1
    @linuxxx ah you finally switched to templeos then?
  • 1
    @linuxxx Can't wait to read it!
  • 0
    @teganburns if this makes you happy, i think your videos are entertaining
  • 1
    @dfox please add Bitcoin as payment method :)

    Also please, relaunch the desktop app of devrant.

    Also please, revam the UI of mobile devrant :)

    There are tons of devs here, i am sure they will help :)
  • 1
    @dfox Is posting a link from an original post to the comments of a repost ok if you are like "Hey just a heads up, this is a repost. *Link*"
  • 0
    Allelujah
  • 0
    @RantSomeWhere I agree.
    Also, people using rant/story tag on memes and other shit is fucking cancer
  • 1
    @RantSomeWhere hmmm... I must be quite unlucky then 🤷
  • 1
    @RantSomeWhere I mean, I have at least 2 "rants" on my daily that I'd not classify as rants or stories.

    Edit: A tiny scroll revealed two additional ones. So 4 in the first 20 rants. That's a lot more than I'd expect from only 5% being categorised wrong
Your Job Suck?
Get a Better Job
Add Comment