SAP is not a business system. Its goal is not to solve any kind of business problem. SAP is a club. Just like Supreme clothes, it's expensive for the sake of being expensive. Everyone else also knows they're expensive, and this is why you buy them. If you adopt SAP, you do it just to show potential investors that you have money. SAP is designer clothes of IT.

I kinda thought about it, and it was confirmed by a person who worked with SAP for the last 20 years.

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    I work with SAP and dread it. Everything about it is shit.
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    @PrivateGER that's the point! it should be expensive to maintain and integrate.
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    tbh, We are using Dynamics AX and that is also a bottomless money pit damn...

    My senior is already working 7 years on the system and it still runs like crap. (Maybe most is due to the lack of knowledge of that person but the boss doesn't care, I don't care anymore and just watch the shit burn)
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    And it has the worst API docs I ever seen
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    @Hazarth ['nam flashback to shitty SAP javadocs]
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    @PrivateGER sap has javadocs?
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    @kiki Shitty ones.

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    @PrivateGER i thought you were supposed to reverse-engineer their stuff every time
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    I don't get how SAP survives as I never hear something good about it. And at this point I am too afraid to ask :-|
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    @nebula There is an other example : Apple.

    It also still exists even with overpriced average products.

    Same for SAP. Expensive yet people are buying it...
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    @Grumm name one non-apple laptop with a calibrated 2k display, passive cooling, 10+ hr battery life in active web browsing, 8-core CPU and 2.6 tflops GPU costing less than $1000.

    I'll wait.

    See, those criteria are facts and can be measured, with no room left to personal taste. Hard to argue then innit. I mean seriously, I'm looking for a linux laptop comparable to my macbook air.
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    They even have their own programming language for it
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    SAP is a pretty good survivability test for any company though. If a company survives migrating to SAP, you can be absolutely sure that there is nothing wrong with that company (except that it now uses SAP).
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    @jonas-w Don't we all like to build our own domain-specific languages...

    For something as big as SAP it actually makes sense that it sooner or later get its own ("Advanced") "Business Application Programming" language though.
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    @Grumm I am amazed how someone is working 7 years on a system and still doesn't know a lot of it. Granted there can be lot of legit reasons: They got a lot of other responsibilities as well. The system is really complex like an OS, etc. But still, 7 years?
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    @Wolle It was a dynamics AX migration.

    All he needs to do is make sure everything works.

    Yet at this point, users cannot use some items without error messages, crashes, not responding,

    (Most of the stuff that is wrong, I have told him in 2015 already...)
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    @Oktokolo nothing wrong? Not true. It tells that there can be absolutely ridiculous things in the company and it still manages to survive. You will probably find many other things that are as bad or worse in the company.
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    @electrineer Well, obviously the decision to use SAP is pretty damn wrong. So yes, of course there is something wrong in upper management. But that sort of wrong is basically a given in how our society works.

    But it shows that the company is damn healthy and self-healing (for a company) and can sustain quite a lot of even internal sabotage without falling apart. Surviving SAP is as good an objective company health metric as you will ever get.

    Btw a company surviving serious fuckery is a pretty good sign. Because it means that the people actually generating the business value are good enough for the job and redundancies are sufficient. If a company goes belly-up, because people didn't manage to just go Spreadsheets when the "integrated business solution" died - that is a pretty bad sign. Resilience is good.

    So the real question is: How can we make migrating to SAP a repeatable process to allow for objective measurement of company resilience even when they already got SAP?
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    @Oktokolo maybe the company is totally fucked up and only survives because other fucked up companies depend on them
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    @electrineer Sounds like a pretty nice opportunity to take over that company. Now you have full control over that supplier and your competition has to find a new one.

    But yeah, survival by meta happens. CEOs golfing with politicians. Fractal megacorp structures which can contain whole companies having lost any purpose since some merger happened decades ago... Happens.

    But surviving SAP still is as objective a resilience metric as you can get. If it survives SAP, chances are, the processes are resiliant, the employees flexible. Such a company will likely not fall apart when some obscure law changes or some employee dies in a car accident.
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    @kiki not gonna lie, I do recognize that apple hardware is pretty damn good piece of engineering. But!

    It's designed to break.
    It has no durability in mind
    Still the worst product made by slavery.
    Everything is closed source.

    Those factors make me never to own apple hardware ever
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    @NeatNerdPrime my MacBook 12 was bought in 2016 and still going strong used every day. I changed battery in 2020

    Never had a single issue with keyboard
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    @kiki But how is that relevant ?

    I also have a windows Acer laptop bought in 2012. Still going strong.

    Updated the ram, added an ssd, upgraded to windows 10.

    At work, we had a macBook pro, that one died after 3 years (it was the first one with that touchscreen thingy above the keyboard)
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    @Grumm this is relevant because you called apple “overpriced”. This means competitors offer the same specs for lower price, or offer better specs for the same price. I gave you the list of specs MacBook Air M1 has. I challenge you to demonstrate a non-Apple laptop that offers better specs for the same price or same specs for lower price. If you can't, Apple is not overpriced.
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    @kiki There is the Samsung Galaxy Book2 Pro 360,

    (Or when the M1 released, you had the dell xps 13 (*2020 model) It even had a 4k screen.

    When I say Apple is overpriced, I refer to all the products in global. Not only macbooks. Phones are overpriced (xiaomi 11 was slightly better than the Iphone 12 but costed almost half the price.)

    monitor stands, extra charger, magic mouse, keyboard... Like others mentioned, sure the hardware is very good engineered and all. But closed source, no way to update.

    And I watched enough of Rossmann's repair videos to see how f**ed-up their eco-system is.
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    @Grumm xps 13 has active cooling and doesn't last 10+ hrs browsing
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    @kiki Where can you see that ?

    I found some movie test where it managed to get 9hrs and 40 minutes. (So only browsing should easly add 20minutes I guess.)

    Is active cooling really that bad ? Sure it takes more energy, but the cooling is also superior than any passive cooling.
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    @Grumm My view in the products will not change. Overpriced, closed source (Here I can talk a lot about too, for example iOS updates that made old phones less powerful, tracking user activities), war on repair making it difficult to repair, less options to update...
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    @Grumm active cooling in a laptop is a dealbreaker for me. Suddenly I have to be careful of a surface I put my laptop on. Can't put it on my bed. Also, it's noisy. Whether you mind it or not is subjective, however noise vs. no noise is an objective criterion. Active cooling systems suck dust and need cleaning once in a while. Optimistically, every device should have passive cooling, we're just not there yet in terms of heat efficiency.

    “My view in the products will not change” — you should've started with that. Understandable. I won't discuss facts with you anymore, as you clearly state you don't care about facts.
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    @kiki Of course I care about facts.

    But so far I also see other facts.

    Facts = your macbook from 2016.

    Facts = my windows notebook from 2012.

    What more is there to say ?

    You cannot deny all the fuss there was when people found out that Apple devices are full of tracking stuff. (Windows is also really bad)

    What about the war on repair ? There are a ton of lawsuit's on that matter. Aren't those facts ?

    Is watching the repairs of Rossmann not about facts ?

    If someone gives me an iphone or mac, sure I will use it. But I will not buy it for myself.

    An other fact : the M2 chip is really good.
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    @Grumm our laptops are incomparable in specs I provided. Repair lawsuits and all that fuss has nothing to do with the word “overpriced”.
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    @kiki Ok, I may use the word 'overpriced' to broadly.

    I was referring to iphones and iWatches.

    But Samsung is also overpriced on their phones...

    (Or like a Porsche, on the road it will go at the same speed as a Toyota)

    (So no it is not only Apple in my case ;) )

    Just the overall hardware + price.

    I am not blind to see that Apple is changing with their latest MacBooks so that is positive.
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    @Grumm porsche in the city is a status symbol. Objective criteria don't apply. In racing world (not street legal), porsche has good offerings at competitive prices.

    MacBook is not a status symbol.

    Apple Watch is questionable. It might be seen as a status symbol, and I agree other smartwatches might be comparable in specs. Though I'm not sure about blood saturation and ECG measurements of other smartwatches.

    Bottom line is, a thing becomes overpriced only when there is competition, and when competitors offer objectively better performance at the same cost. Status symbols are “overpriced” by definition, because that's what they are for.
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    @kiki Agree, but still it all depends on where you live.

    Here in the company I work, all account managers only want an ipad. Their argument is : 'It looks the most professional when visiting new clients'.

    Same with cars, it has to be a Mercedes. Not because of performance or price. purely for the symbol or approval of clients.

    But most people here associate Apple products with a superior status than android users.

    Same goes for SAP. It can be crap or overpriced. As soon as you mention it, you get that status of company who can afford all that.
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    @Grumm iPad and Mercedes arguments you presented are about status symbols. It doesn't mean they're crap.

    About “most people”, do you really feel like you can authoritatively speak for the whole community?
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    @kiki I am talking about the 'most people here' (at work reference to most of the account managers)

    I also didn't stated that it was crap. Just overpriced. (See the last reaction of @NeatNerdPrime)
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    @Grumm again, you didn't provide evidence on the competition (xps wasn't satisfying the criteria because it had active cooling), and you clearly stated nothing will change your mind on Apple. You are entitled to your opinion.
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    @kiki I like your dedication and challenge.

    So based on your specs, the prices I have on the apple website for the Macbook Air M1, I cannot find one. (Or not one that meets your passive cooling requirement)

    And yes, I will accept my defeat in this battle.

    But the amount of progress done on the ARM processors, it is just a matter of time to beat the M1 (and M2). Maybe the Samsung Galaxy Book S ?
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    @Grumm I adore your bravery, without irony. Yes, it's a matter of time. All tech progress is a matter of time. It's just like right now there is no competition. I would like to have a non-Apple laptop with this kind of spec for Linux. Fun fact: you can install Linux on M1 macs.

    About Samsung, judging by Galaxy smartphones, their craftsmanship is worse than Apple. They are _fragile_. I know a person who got his Galaxy's screen cracked in half when he just threw the phone on the couch. Their glass is very thin. Meanwhile, my iPhone X left a dent in the floorboard when I dropped it, going out unscathed. Three years of rough handling, without a case, without a screen protector, and still going.
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    @kiki My problem was the passive cooling.

    In active cooling, any notebook using an AMD Ryzen 7 5800h CPU is better/faster than the M1 chip.

    For the samsung, we will see. Should be the first notebook with their Exynos 2200 cpu.
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    on youtube there is an interview with sap consultant which starts with him getting out of his Lamborghini


    CC are not available but he basically gather requirements from the client and write them down. Usually they are hundreds pages long. He doesn't write any code. he earns ~20-21k USD monthly
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    This thread has derailed heavily. Can we all agree that everyone has their opinions and preferences of hardware for various reasons? It's everyone's right to have their weapons of choice. I personally prefer as fair as possible. It's why I have a Fairphone instead of a slaves-made iPhone
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    @NeatNerdPrime it's called devRANT for a reason
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