14

[See image]

This guy is wrong in so many ways.

"Windows/macOS is the best choice for the average user. Prove me wrong."

There are actually many Gnu/Linux based operating systems that's really easy to install and use. For example Debian/any Debian based OS.
There are avarage users that use a Gnu/Linux based operating system because guess what. They think its better and it is.
Lets do a little comparision shall we.

- - - - - Windows 10 - - Debian
Cost $139 Free
Spyware Yes. No
Freedom Limited. A lot

"[Windows] It's easy to set up, easy to use and has all the software you could possibly want. And it gets the job done. What more do you need? I don't see any reason for the average joe to use it. [Linux]"

Well as I said earlier, there are Gnu/Linux based operating systems thats easy to set up too.

And by "[Windows] has all the software you could possibly want." I guess you mean that you can download all software you could possibly want because having every single piece of software (even the ones you dont need or use) on your computer is extremely space inefficient.

"Linux is far from being mainstream, I doubt it's ever gonna happen, in fact"

Yes, Linux isn't mainstream but by the increasing number of people getting to know about Linux it eventually will be mainstream.

"[Linux is] Unusable for non-developers, non-geeks.

Depends heavily on what Gnu/Linux based operating system youre on. If youre on Ubuntu, no. If youre on Arch, yes. Just dont blame Linux for it.

"Lots of usability problems, lots of elitism, lots of deniers ("works for me", "you just don't use it right", "Just git-pull the -latest branch, recompile, mess with 12 conf files and it should work")"

That depends totally on what you're trying to. As the many in the Linux community is open source contributors, the support around open source software is huge and if you have a problem then you can get a genuine answer from someone.

"Linux is a hobby OS because you literally need to make it your 'hobby' to just to figure out how the damn thing works."

First of all, Linux isnt a OS, its a kernel. Second, no you dont. You dont have to know how it works. If you do, yes it can take a while but you dont have to.

"Linux sucks and will never break into the computer market because Linux still struggles with very basic tasks."

Ever heard of System76? What basic tasks does Linux struggle with? I call bullshit.

"It should be possible to configure pretty much everything via GUI (in the end Windows and macOS allow this) which is still not a case for some situations and operations."

Most things is possible to configure via a GUI and if it isnt, use the terminal. Its not so hard

https://boards.4chan.org/g/thread/...

Comments
  • 13
    IDK who the guy is but im speaking to him now. Buddy you are crazy. Linux is ALREADY replacing windows and you dont need to mess with it. Thats optional and it will work just fine without tweaking.

    And No you dont have all options in GUI in windows. And have you seen KDE ? That shit has so many options that many users using it for years havent seen them all.

    Read shit about the stuff you are going to write otherwise you will get responds like this one.
  • 12
    Yes there is lot of elitism and that sort of stuff in communities like Arch but thats normal as its not for normal users. Its for people who know WTF they are doing and are mainly contributing to GNOME or kernel or so. Myself included.

    Then there is System76, Fedora, Ubuntu. If you cant use those for daily use you are either crazy or you cant use PC. They are easy to use and you will regret not switching to them sooner. Communities there are welcoming mostly and there are few trolls but where arent ? Then you will get the feeling and will want more control. You will go for arch.

    Or be crazy like me and go for arch from beggining LUL. Recommended BTW really good way to learn about stuff.
  • 5
    I dunno... It's no walk in the park... I'd recommend if I knew the hardware is compatible but that fact alone is enough to disqualify it from "average home users". Man, I spent fucking days trying to get a stable internet connection and I grew up with these computer things and write code for a living. Fuck wasting time. Fuck not having a stable internet connection. Fuck having to spend hours getting your Bluetooth headphones to work. I like [gnu/] Linux [based OS'], but not that much... That lean un-bloated feeling is bliss but the rest of it could easily give me an aneurysm. Let's not talk about that piece of shit m$ office "alternative" Libre office... I understand why you guys use LaTeX for everything when the alternative is that rotting corpse of an excuse for software.

    Thanks for letting me vent. I haven't booted into Ubuntu/elementaryOS for months but the rage is still there.
  • 1
    I'm also a bit jealous that I don't "get it". Like, it's a mystery in so many ways to me. It's interesting. Some day I might stop being a noob learn this stuff for real... It's just frustrating when you need to get stuff done and don't have the time to RTFM so that you can compile Arch from source while bowing respectfully before your poster of Richard Stallman.
  • 3
    Desktop Linux just sucks, and no it isn't replacing Windows, get real man. Server Linux is because you pay pros to deal with it. Embedded Linux sucks also, but it doesn't cost royalties and you pay devs to put up with that clusterfuck. Android? Google invested billions into hiding Linux away, and there's not much left over from any Linux experience, which is how it could be successful with end users in the first place.
  • 1
    In my experience there will never be a true Linux Desktop OS.

    Android is really messed up example

    Reason it has great support by vendors is due to the fact that there is no kernel upgrade possible.

    Reason why Linaro / AOSP have the "longer longterm" kernels.

    Linux would need to give up one of it's major design principles in order to become a true desktop OS - having a stable API / ABI so vendors can just dump their fuckpile of drivers like in Windows - which will never happen.

    Yes, you will have to check hardware compatibility always.

    I still have trouble with my Ryzen 2400 G and regular call traces in dmesg. Bug is known since > 1 year plus, even announced to mailing list, no reaction.

    MS Office is necessary - for work in my case - and no virtualisation please. It's painful (qemu) or buggy (virtualbox).

    Xorg vs Wayland, Python 2.7 packages, Flatpak vs Snap... Many more examples...

    I love linux - but I'm aware of the compromises it has due to it's design principles....
  • 2
    There one fundamental true in his speech: Linux IS already complicate to the "common joe" because it's not preinstalled on any machine. This makes it impossible to use for common joe.
  • 5
    @jurion

    "Well, you base your « assertions » on Windows 98 or something ?"

    No. Windows 10

    "The only valid point I can see in your rant is data collection/”spyware”. You do know this is completely optional and can be deactivated ?"

    No it cant. All you can do is to decrease the amount of surveilence you get.

    "Through my life I tries to make full switch to Linux at least 2 times. The longest I didn’t need to spent 1 hours configuring something was about a month.
    \“Hey Awesome, you have a new WiFi card ! Let me recompile kernel for adding the support for this chipset. Oups your GRUB is fucked your data is lost\”."

    Yes, if you have a feature disabled you have to recompile your kernel to enable it but most chipsets should already be supported atleast in big name distros.

    And if you somehow manage to fuck up Grub, thats your fault.
    You cant loose your data if you fuck up Grub. Its a boot manager.
  • 4
    A few corrections:

    1. Linux is mainstream, it’s the most used os in the world by a massive margin. Besides a sizable proportion of the home PC market, Linux powers all android phones, overwhelming majority of servers, 100.0% of the top 500 supercomputers, etc.

    2. Configuring everything through the GUI on windows is actually a significant portion of what makes it so terrible. Scripting support becomes bad because of this, clumsy interfaces get in the way, and it is horribly lacking in features because you’d need so many damn gui tools to make everything possible.

    3. I have found windows impossibly difficult to navigate or even accomplish basic tasks and Linux makes everything very easy. The difference is the average windows user uses google chrome and plays video games and does VERY LITTLE else. If you stay in that tiny ass box you probably won’t run into issues. Try to do anything else and you absolutely will.

    4. I hate when people say that people saying Linux “works for them” or “you must not be using it right” that it’s elitism. How is this any different from what windows users tell me when I explain basic lack of functionality? I guess I’m not using windows right either. Yeah, right.
  • 3
    @Fast-Nop I’ve been using desktop Linux for two decades, no complaints. And only a handful of reboots in that time, mostly for power outages, bad ram, or updating kernel major revisions
  • 3
    @IntrusionCM I disagree with most of your points :/ don’t really have much else to add.
  • 3
    @jurion I don’t buy that it’s optional. Like if I tell you “ok I promise that I’m not spying on you right now” what does that really mean?

    There are promises and then there are guarantees. I’m all about guarantees.
  • 2
    @FrodoSwaggins I've had Linux already in the 90s, but it sucked more than even Win95. And not because I couldn't deal with Unix - I was routinely using HP-UX at that time anyway, plus AIX and Irix. And then Linux from 2001 to 2010 as only OS, bypassing XP and Vista.

    Vista sucked also, and that was THE chance for desktop Linux, but they blew it harder than a hoe who'd happily suck a golf ball through a garden hose just for the next shot. Which is why I'm now on Win7.

    And yeah, I totally understand why desktop Linux isn't a thing and will never be. Even with Win10. I may ditch Win10 in favour of Linux, but not because Linux is good, only because Win10 sucks so hard AND I'm able to put up with the Linux shitfest if necessary, which most aren't.

    Ooohhh and the reboot.. you know what? I'm shutting down the PC at the end of the day anyway. No matter which OS. Did that even with Linux because I just don't get a boner from 2 million years uptime.
  • 2
    1. I meant in the sense of knowing what Linux is. Most Android users probably dont even know what Linux is and that Android is based on it.
    Linux being used a lot doesnt mean its mainstream. If Linux was mainstream i would assure you more people would talk about

    2. I agree. But if he wants to use gui configuration tools thats up to him. I just told him that there exists gui configuration tools for gnu/Linux.

    3. Exactly. Windows does have its own significant flaws. Its just that most normies just dont notice them.

    4.
  • 2
    @Fast-Nop few things;

    1. shutting down the PC at the end of the day has nothing to with being forced to take a coffee break because it died again. Uptime might not be important, but it’s still on a lot of you turn it on every day and reliability absolutely matters.

    2. “Vista was the big chance and they blew it” who is they? What did they blow? Why? I think this is a meaningless fluff statement. I was there and I was friends with they. They was fine. They didn’t blow anything that I can recall.

    3. You say it sucked more than windows 95. But you didn’t say why. Maybe they was up to no good again. They can really be an asshole sometimes.
  • 3
    @FrodoSwaggins 1. Windows doesn't just die unless your HW is broken. It can even restart AMD graphics driver shit these days. Get real.

    2. Won't go into the history, just look back how the Linux desktop failed despite Vista being presented to them on a silver plate, especially with the netbook boom back then.

    3. Because Linux in the 90s just sucked. HW support, stability, distros, everything was a joke. Win95 crashed frequently, but unlike Linux, it was at least useful between the crashes.
  • 2
    most non tech people don't even know Linux.
    And because usually they use Windows already, they will be lazy to change and afraid if their data lost.
    What average joe needed is availability like preinstalled OS on new laptop, they don't give a fck for spyware
  • 1
    > many Gnu/Linux based operating systems

    > that's really easy to install and use.

    FX [ Tries to install Linux every year for 20 years.. ]

    Ha !

    Easy my foot !

    I dunno, the last time I managed successfully to get it installed it liked 1 of the 20 different graphic cards I had on hand..

    (It still threw up some kind of error messages upon booting up mind you, but it did work !)

    I know, just go and download the graphic driver and install with that, and just how do I do that.. ?

    Almost as bad as Windows wanting the driver off the CD for the CD drive..

    But at least Windows installs itself most of the time with almost any old crap of hardware you give it !

    Hopefully my shiny new second hand amazingly dreamboat hardware will be good enough that this time, installing some flavour of Linux goes like every fanboy says it will..

    If not, I'll be here asking, how do I do this !
  • 0
    > Vista sucked also

    Actually I quite liked that, but only if you ever got past doing all the updates..
  • 4
    With these sorts of things it's easy to forget how computer illiterate most people even are. The average user won't be able to install ANY OS other than the one that came on their computer and when that hard drive fucks up, they just buy a new computer. You will never get an an average user to write an image to a bootable device, boot to it, and then go through the installer (which even the simplest installers have scary concepts and words like "Erase all data on drive!")

    Then, once you filter out all the people who can't even install Linux, you get all the people who install it and just never find a use for it. They're back to Windows in a week. Happened to my buddy and I don't even blame him.

    I agree with the article. While Linux has the potential, the reality is that it's difficult to see it on my mom's laptop.
  • 5
    @FrodoSwaggins your first correction is totally wrong. Linux is mainstream in servers but it not mainstream and never will be mainstream for desktop use and that's what that article is about. Average user does not configure servers.
  • 2
    @irene well tbh, its only mainstream on servers because of its history, however OP is making the point that thats no longer the case. Distros are now packed with environments that don't make it all that different from Windows visually, and it works out or the box these days. At least with user friendly distros, but thats the point: There are user friendly client distributions now. People are just still regurgitating all the stuff about Linux that were said 20 years ago and unlike op, I think thats normal.

    Most people dont like making radical first steps without a hell of a good reason, and thats why linux struggles compared to windows, on which most users are raised. But with Windows going down the drain lately I think more young users will start looking for an alternative, not to mention its free to try.

    However, is it just me, or is anyone else afraid of linux being destroyed if it goes mainstream?
  • 2
    @Hazarth saying "it's not visually different" is a huge lie. It is different
  • 1
    @Hazarth Linux struggles with desktop users because it really sucks for desktop users in general. And it seems like Linux or Linux foundation really have no incentive to change that.
  • 3
    "Yes, Linux isn't mainstream but by the increasing number of people getting to know about Linux it eventually will be mainstream."

    This part of the op made me chuckle.

    In my first job, about 20 years ago, I had a colleague who occasionally wore a t-shirt which said "Unix is the operation system of the future. It has been for 20 years."

    Now, *nix is the OS of the future for almost half a century already. :D
  • 1
    @irene well I can't speak for all of them, but both Mint and Kubuntu come out of the box configured very similar to windows. Application bar at the bottom, clock and keyboard layout on the right bottom, menu on the left bottom corner, applications in that menu listed with a search feature, and the shutdown button is right there too. Icons on the desktop even with a recycle bin icon, pretty slick and stylish, a process manager GUI app pre-installed, firefox pre-installed... Word editor... Music player... Drivers work... Installation had a simple wizard to follow and identifies best settings...

    It was an extremely smooth and familiar transition for me and that's what I mean. You dont even need to touch the terminal if you dont want to. All the printers connect fine, pdf viewers are there... It was actually a better experience for me than getting windows up to speed
  • 2
    There is so many points what I don't agree with post.

    Standard Debian/Ubuntu/Pop!_os is really good for common joe to use. If you install any of those you can use GUI for 90% of things you need to know as common joe. In rare cases you need to use terminal, same as in Windows.

    Elitist comes with people who has experience, for example to install Arch Linux you have to learn how system works under hood. I don't mean I like how people behave when they go elitist (BTW I use Arch).

    There is already some hardware sold with Gnu/Linux: System76, Manjaro and Dell XPS is sold with Linux, but they aren't sold in general electric stores as their Windows counterparts.

    People need to stop thinking Android as Gnu/Linux, because it isn't. Android is OS what runs on Linux.

    But fundamentally this comparison is weird. Gnu/Linux is developed mostly developers spare time, unpaid.

    To be honest, I don't believe Gnu/Linux will replace Windows as general home PC OS ever, but it will coexists with Windows
  • 0
    I can personally attest to gitk and git-gui having less than 50% of the features of terminal-based git. It's necessary to dumb down the GUI for the average joe. What the guy is saying is simply not feasible.
  • 3
    @amatrelan you don't need to know how the system works if you install Arch. Arch wiki has install guide and I'm sure some 12 y old kid would be able to do it. Seriously.
  • 1
    @ihatecomputers I can only agree on libre office! Looks like its the one from Ms but out of an era where xp was the latest and greatest. Where you have to hover/click more than 70 diffrent buttons only to find where to change the margin of somethin'.
  • 1
    @Haxk20 Ikr, I also installed it on my first try without any problem. No idea why people still struggles while installing Arch.
  • 0
    @Fast-Nop the experience you’ve described with windows snd Linux does not even slightly match my 20+ year experience of using these OS. Simple as that.
  • 0
    @irene so you’re saying it’s mainstream but that my first point is still wrong. My point was it’s mainstream. Don’t know what to make of that.
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins yes, it's invalid because post addresses Linux for average Joes and not for servers. And I've clearly addressed that in my previous message to you. 😑
  • 0
    > No idea why people still struggles while installing

    Classic human experience bubble issue.

    If it works for you, then generally you have no idea why, and don't really care, and begin to suspect that it is that easy for everyone.

    But, you could just be the lucky person who is lucky all the time. :-)

    Some of us are the other end of the spectrum, unlucky all the time, always have difficulty with everything !

    Nothing works out of the box, even when we buy it new, it needs a firmware update to play a DVD on a DVD player !

    When I was really young, I thought the world worked one way, but as I wandered through life I experience all the other ways it can work too, for other people.

    As such, I have a great interest in why things don't work for people, and what can be done about it.

    For example, it took me hours to get my mums new phone to except a specific ringtone, a firmware bug never fixed !
  • 0
    @Hazarth

    ------

    with Windows going down the drain lately I think more young users will start looking for an alternative, not to mention its free to try.

    ------

    I'm leaning slowly more towards Linux, and is why I'm going try dualbooting with it sometime in the future to see if I can get it to work, and learn how to use it.

    As much as I like Windows 10, it's becoming increasingly difficult to set it up as you want it. (I think it took me 3 months to configure everything just right last fresh install..) and I just want an OS that works without me spending a lifetime finding out every little tweak needed to function as I want it to.

    XP64 was my favourite, after that, everything just got more complicated and difficult..

    So, W10 may be the last Windows OS for me..

    But it could well take me 10 years to transition to Linux, since so many things I use, only have Windows versions..

    Maybe by them, Linux versions will exist !
  • 2
    @irene the reason why that shit won't change is because there's no money on the table. With servers, you pay the "Linux margin" on the server hardware so that the vendors like Intel or ARM can employ devs to make sure shit runs on their hardware.

    There's no money flow at all from desktop users, which is why it's a hobby show and there's no incentive for change. Users can't vote with money, but get routinely ignored and ridiculed instead.

    Windows fucks up? Haha Windows sucks. Linux fucks up? Haha the user sucks. Only that this won't make anything better.
  • 2
    @FrodoSwaggins It gets even better. Win7 takes WAY less maintenance than Linux for desktop. No reinstall in 9 years.

    With Linux, frequently because there's no LTS. And if LTS, then outdated applications because everything is bundled with the stupid package manager which even Torvalds said it's crap for application deployment.

    Well or rolling release in eternal beta stadium and no testing and frequent breakage.
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins

    Separated in 2. Stupid 1000 characters limit
    This is a pretty narrow view.
    People also like to talk to each other. Do you have these apps :
    • Phone sync for SMS/MMS (Both android and ios). (Windows fails at MMS part too, SMS working)
    • WhatsApp
    • Telegram
    • Skype
    • Skype for business
    • FB Messenger
    • Teams
    • FB
    • Intagram

    If the answer is “no”, then it’s not for average user. “You can just go to website”. Yes, I can, but I want a small app which will notify me, without having browser opened.
    I can agree that on technical level Linux is stable and easy to use (Personal preference KDE). But it is no where close to be “usable” in day to day.
  • 0
    @Fast-Nop I understand the reasons
  • 0
    @Fast-Nop win 10 takes no maintenance as well 🙂
  • 0
    @irene Win10 has the unfortunate combo of forced updates on the one hand, and MS cutting down on test and QA on the other. That's not acceptable.

    With Linux and all the shit, at least once I got things working AND I don't change anything, then it keeps working. Sounds like trivial, but Win10 is deliberately failing this very basic OS test.
  • 0
    @Fast-Nop

    Forced updates are mandatory for large population. I would agree that they should add an option to opt-out.
    And for second part : This is just plan false. I only maintaining one (last) linux server in our company. The only reason is that combo WebMin + BIND is VERY easy to configure. Each time I see updates I need: Make a snapshot of the VM, apply updates, retest every DNS entry. Because I have 0 confidence that the VM will even boot after Linux update. On the other hand, I have a Windows server 2012with all auto updates and auto reboots. In 5 years not once I had to adjust any config or manually adjust settings after update
  • 0
    @jurion there is a fucking option to change when and how updates occur =__= nobody does that
  • 0
    @irene

    It is not a problem when and how. The problem is : there is 20% chance your machine will not boot after linux update
    May be situation is better now.
  • 0
    @jurion depends on a distro
  • 0
    @jurion My Arch Linux laptop have always booted after ive updated it's kernel. And if it doesn’t boot, all you have to do is to boot a live usb, mount your boot/efi partition and fix it (it's most oftenly grub-mkconfig)
  • 0
    @irene

    I played with Fedora long time ago (10-12 years ago). Didn’t like it. I specially disliked that I couldn’t play MP3 out of box (But I understand the reason)
    The last server right now is Ubuntu Linux 17.10 (Yes I know, not really a “server” distro, but has advantage to be dumb easy to install and to initial config)
  • 0
    @irene well my only point was it is mainstream and it is. Actually I would even argue android covers the personal average joe use case...
  • 0
    @Fast-Nop once again your experience doesn’t match up with mine. Sorry, not much else I can say other than 100% disagree
  • 0
    @jurion I just disagree. Used it Day to day for two decades, and found it more usable than windows. All those killer apps you listed are terrible
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins endroid is not Linux. It's an additional system on top of the kernel.
  • 0
    @FrodoSwaggins argue as much as you want, facts won't change and you'll be just a zealous Linux fan.
  • 0
    @irene it’s not Linux, only uses 100% of Linux plus some additional stuff.

    These are facts what the hell are you talking about!?

    I’m also not a zealous Linux fan I use openbsd and irix at home, I just hate windows fanboys and want to beat them down a peg
  • 0
    @irene Irene: “facts are facts” (proceeds to state things that are not facts or are facts that just don’t support your argument)
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