38
Wiciaki
8d

DISCLAIMER: UNPOPULAR OPINION

I'm tired of the Linux community, they effectively discourage me of taking part in any discussion online

I'm currently making Windows-only soft, some game stuff, some legacy DirectX stuff you got it.

Everytime I go online, this shitty pattern happens, when I stumble upon a problem in project I don't know how to fix and I ask for help
These are responses
- HA, HA, WINDOWS BAD, HA, HA, GET REAL SYSTEM
- In Linux, we can do X too. I mean it has 4x less functionality and way shittier UX and is even harder to implement but it can probably work on too Linux, so it's better, yes, just move to Linux
- btw you didn't like Linux before? Try this distro man, it's better <links random distro>

Is there anything valuable in the Linux community? I feel like these people don't like Linux anyway, they just hate Windows. Every opinion, tip is always opinion based. Anyone who works on internals knows how much better and how well thought is Windows kernel compared to Linux kernel. Also, if someone unironically uses Linux distro on desktop PC then he's a masochist because desktop Linux is dieing. So many distros ceased work only this year.

Is it a good tool for servers and docker containers? I don't have my head stuck up my ass to admit that yes, it's much better than Windows here.

This community got me stressed right now, I fear that when I go to bathroom or open my microwave there's gonna be a Linux distro recommendation there

😠😡😠😴

Comments
  • 12
    I feel a lot of people quibble over tools instead of actual techniques and results (I'm guilty of that too tbh).
  • 19
    Admittedly, the amount you pay for windows should not result in a service less adequate than free Linux. Which many use for desktop, actually. You just don't hear them nag because their systems don't randomly break. But that's not the point here.

    Using a different system is literally one way of fixing the issue. But you want to do it your way. So I'm sorry that windows experts don't lend you a hand and you come across the worst of linux fans, many of whom have been fed up with windows bs and now have to get it out of their system.
  • 11
    @NoMad no, no, that's just bs. Do you really know anyone who paid for a Windows license in the past 5 years? I don't.

    Linux "experts" are only gonna lead you to their sweet home system, which works way shittier in every aspect, except for it's good because it's not Windows

    Then you're gonna get left behind

    And I know they might have a reason for that because Microsoft made it's mistakes but it's been doing outstanding work for years.

    I did give Linux a honest try and it's problems on every move. Just doing a clean install with nothing installed is a pain. Getting the graphic driver working and fixing the sh*t that comes preinstalled is a pain. For me, not even the reboot/shutdown buttons work in Linux by default

    Linux is only free if your time is worth nothing. Time you're gonna spend everyday figuring out how to fix every system problem

    Long live open source community! 😊
  • 15
    For me, what I like about Linux is how easy it is to manage your Dev environment.
    There are so many times where package managers on Linux made my life so much easier for managing dependencies, whereas in Windows, even just compiling and linking to boost can be a week long adventure.
    I find configuration on Linux so much easier. Why do I constantly need to install specialized programs for everything on Windows, even for something so simple as changing my keyboard layout to one that doesn't suck horribly (cf my rant to PC AZERTY)?
    And also, I like that almost everything I do on Linux, I can do on a Mac and vice-versa.
    And finally, Windows' cli is just the worst, period.

    But I do also hate when people go "why not use X OS" when I need help on either side. If I'm using Y OS, there's probably a reason, isn't there?

    As far as desktop experience, I'd say it's a matter of taste. I personally have no preference at all, Gnome, Windows, OS X, they're all in par in my opinion
  • 2
    @CptFox cool, your stack is much different than mine and I respect that you're having more success/higher productivity with using other system than me

    Also

    I WISH I EVER GOT TOLD THAT BACK BY A LINUX USERR 😭
  • 5
    Win CLI sucks piss indeed
  • 4
    Have you tried using jQuery?
  • 9
    @Wiciaki

    ... But you do pay for windows. It's on top of the original price for every new desktop or laptop you buy.

    I genuinely don't know which Linux you've tried because mine has always worked out of the box and I'm on arch which is the trickiest (RIP antergos) yet I've got it working out of the box.

    Either way, good luck with your issue. May a windows expert finally arrive and solve it.
  • 8
    @Wiciaki wait, timeout... are you comparing your preinstalled windows experience to trying to reconfigure the machine to run linux? I was going to say the same thing that Nomad did, it's not the linux community that's the problem, it's that your coming from the windows community. You come to the mac community your going to catch the same amount of shit, minus any relative help or tips you get because ya know... Our shit just works 🤷🏻‍♂️
  • 14
    Is it just that Linux users are lurking in threads where you’re asking for help or you’re asking for help in a mainly Linux based thread?

    Either way I feel your pain. This phenomena is not limited to IT or the windoze/Mac/Linux space but in all genres.. people are always happy to voice their way or what they’re doing so they can beat their chest and feel like their miserable lives are actually worth something. The internet gave retards a soap box.. just try to ignore it and focus on getting your solutions. Not all of us Linux users suck. And yeah.. I paid for my windoze disk when I built that box many moons ago
  • 2
    @badcopnodonuts i'm asking in general programming communities
  • 4
    @Fast-Nop that is a good point but let's not forget the other reason, which is that microsoft beat everyone to the current "desktop" wm that everyone is used to today and because everyone thought it was hot shit (more like just shit to me, but we all know I'm biased) they ported all of their data to it and microsoft had made it almost impossible to switch back once they had.

    I throw in "almost" there, because there were plenty of users that weren't using the machine for anything too terribly important, didn't back it up, and thus when it crashed (as they were prone to do) that user was now free to try mac or linux because all of their past collections of data were gone anyway.
  • 3
    #neckbeardparadise
  • 4
    @M1sf3t Nah the Linux crowd had it's big chance when MS shipped the Vista disaster. But of course the FOSStards blew it harder than an H addicted whore on cold turkey.
  • 2
    @Fast-Nop I do vaguely remember that, everybody went running back to xp and I said fuck em entirely and shelled out a couple extra hundred bucks for a macpro running snow leopard. Same one I'm on today in fact, minus two replacement batteries, an ssd drive and few gigs of added ram.

    I might have tried linux back then but for one I wasn't the most computer savvy person back then (still not tbh 🙄) and two, half of my problems up til then had been the shitty hardware that windows came on so I didn't have a whole lot of faith in the same machine running linux.
  • 6
    Ok but back up for just a second:
    > every opinion, tip is always opinion based

    That's... kind of the definition? What else would you expect when asking for tips and opinions?
    The fact that people are replying with personal opinions instead of objective solutions to your questions is a different type of problem, caused by the fact that most people are idiots. That doesn't mean that their opinions are entirely invalid, though.

    As for running linux on a desktop unironically, I do that. My laptop too (well, dual boot really). And it doesn't really break unless I deliberately to stupid things to it.
    Both windows and linux have their different pros and cons, the trick is just being aware of them and knowing how to work with them rather than against them.

    And as far as linux dying on the desktop because some projects have shut down, I'd just like to remind you that the number of projects is not directly proportional to the number of users.
  • 3
    I find both systems sufficient for my primitive purposes on desktop. I also don't like to fight Linuxers, but it'd be a bit unfair to discriminate into Linux sucks or even Linuxers suck. Some of it and some of them suck.. I think this problem is of nontechnical nature. Having Linux installed became "the smart thing" and I think it's analogical to early veganism, which also has some good points at it's core, but retards managed to make it something hard to stand out by non-vegans. These days it's easy to install Linux and therefore those are some really cheap points. You don't even need to install it, in fact, it's enough to say MS $ucks and you're there. Not everybody is diligent enough to put the time in and earn the cool points.

    All in all, it's good to have that expectation when entering discussion with Linuxers, but I think everyone should still get a chance or two.
  • 2
    If it’s any consolation, I use different environments depending on what I want to do or what mood I’m in.

    I won’t evangelise one OS over another. All have their benefits and drawbacks and most of those are subjective.

    Use whatever you want to use and be happy.
  • 0
    @endor yeah, but they’re non helpful opinions at a verrry high level from the actual problem.
  • 1
    And let us not forget OSX is Unix based and they’ve succeeded in making a fairly user friendly desktop variant. The ability to do so is there... it’s only a matter of time before critical mass hits a Linux desktop environment that’s actually thought about taking a bit of control away from the user by default much like Windoze and OS X have. Then it’ll be game on for desktop share... especially when adobe finally supports Linux 💦
  • 3
    It's GNU/Linux. 😁😁😁
  • 8
    I didn't hate windows, Windows forced me to hate it. I switched to linux out of frustration when I got a new laptop. I chose kubuntu, it worked mostly out of the box, optimus is still a problem but to hell with it, Ill just use dedicated card full-time. Other than that it was a blast to work with, especially as a C/C++ dev, installing libraries like SDL2 with 'sudo apt-get install' is fucking sweet compared to setting up the whole environment on windows with a mouse and keyboard...

    Also I love having full control over updates and auto-start features, unlike windows which tries to make everything ready for the user on every launch to the point you're running a software theme park instead of a system...

    Not to mention W10 doesn't even run with an HDD anymore becuase of fucked up prefatching and updates keep draining my data no matter how many times.I disable it or set it to metered... And so I really need ads in my fucking start menu?!

    Yeah no. Im done with them for now
  • 2
    I like Windows as a user and well for general programming, but also know Linux is easier and more popular/cutting edge for dev, especially server software like ELK, Docker, etc.... But that's probably because big companies pile a lot of $$$$$$$ for that stuff
    ... It's not exactly free.

    Therefore I have a monster desktop running Windows that can host Linux VMs... And well there the Ubuntu subsystem now though I never used it other than to play around with a bit.
  • 7
    You had problems using some flavor of the Linux desktop, so therefore the Linux desktop is, "dieing(sic)."

    It's stronger than it's ever been, and I'm not a masochist for preferring it over the linear Windows desktop, or the capable but still relatively linear Mac desktop. I just massively enjoy the fact that I can make it work the way I want. If anything that's hedonism, not masochism.
  • 0
    @DonaldDove wat, spammin', eh?
  • 3
    @dindin I know you're trolling, but it really doesn't have to be. You can now have a fully functional Linux system without any GNU tools. BusyBox and LLVM will get you mostly there, (toolchain and basic shell and accompanying toolset) and you can use stuff like alternative makes. The GNU/Linux pedantry is unnecessary now.

    I'm not saying that GNU shouldn't be recognized, but being pedantic about the system name can now be shot down as desired.
  • 4
    Umm.. I am using Mint on all my computers [personal and work] and I sincerely am happy. Much happier than when I was tied to windows workstations. Tools, ui, ux, performance, connectivity, compatibility, automation, scripting,... Ffs, strace, lsof and netstat that actually work!! Everything is much better imo. And no, I am not a masochist. I'm with linux on my desktop since '08.

    As for your domain, it's prolly better to stick with windows. *nux is quite weak on graphics. Since it's not monetized, there was no need to build nice and shiny graphics [what windows and osx have] - *nux just needed enough graphics to get the job done and be reliable enough.

    And these wankers who keep yelling windows sucks [I cannot argue with that, sorry] and linux rulez [well.... Not quite] are prolly just new guys who are trying to look cool bcz they followed a tutorial by letter and managed to install some linux distro. Normally that would be followed with "mom, look how great I am", followed by lots of nice words from mommy, except... They realize that mommy's got no clue what that linux is nor whether it's better with basil or with some carrots. And the wiener has now to suck it up and try to look cool and oh-so-geeky in front of others in the herd. Hopefully - others, who have never touched that technology, but have heard of it.

    And that's how you get those comments in linux forums. How do I know all of that? I was one of those idiots back in a day. And believe you me, every linux newbie who gets the vibe of what linux actually is and what it enables you to gets that hype :)
  • 4
    @Wiciaki You don't do yourself any favors when you go farther than reasonably demonstrable in the points you make as you dismiss Linux. I get it. You're not interested in using Linux. You're frustrated that people are using your problems as an excuse to bash your platform rather than help you. Don't act the same way the people frustrating you are doing and throw out statements that make you look just as bad to the reasonable Linux folk in here. We can support your frustration, we just ask that you not take it out on our platform, either. It's the internet, and people are going to be jerks because they're idiots. Idiocy, unfortunately, is difficult to prevent on the internet. You can't control that, but you can control how you present yourself so you don't look like one from the other side.
  • 3
    @Fast-Nop I would argue that it looks like user blaming because the Linux community began from the side of high technical competence and most of them don't have the patience or desire to babysit people without the knowledge (or skill) to work things out for themselves. While that is a deficiency, I wouldn't necessarily class it as maliciously intended, so much as an expression of frustration with seemingly incompetent people. There are communities that are working very hard at being more welcoming, and I agree that it should probably be the entire community that does this, but we can't always get both technical geniuses and public relations masters in the same people. It does make for a bad look many times when it shouldn't.
  • 0
    Using Linux desktop is not masochism. Not using it is.
  • 0
    Wow, that escalated quickly.
    This rant is spot on!
  • 2
    I know exactly what you are talking about in terms of work required for installing linux in laptops with nvidia graphics card especially with Asus machines... I guess that company is doing that shit intentionally....

    Anyways, I was still able to install everything successfully on my friends' similar systems... The key to it is searching online for the correct problem with a calm mind... You have to learn what your problem instead of saying my buttons don't work or my system crashes. It is just like how you learnt to ask correct questions for your problems you encountered while using your preferred programming language instead of just telling someone that your code doesn't work
  • 3
    My quick 2 cents: I don't like windows at all. That doesn't mean I judge people who do. It just means I don't like to use it myself
  • 1
    @powerfulparadox Look, a work share society works by letting experts of one domain provide user-ready stuff to non-experts. IT idiots are the only ones who don't get this simple concept. Instead, they think that everyone has to become an IT freak.

    On the other hand, they do expect the other experts to provide them with ready-made shit, from bread, shoes, cars to plumbing for getting rid of their shit.
  • 2
    @Fast-Nop Yep, except they pay for that shit too. 😀
  • 0
    @dindin That's why server Linux works - because there's real money involved so that the responsible devs simply can get told to do shit that isn't fun and games, but necessary.

    And make no mistake, the bitchy idiots in the Linux community don't deliver anything useful, neither for money nor for free.
  • 0
    @Fast-Nop So, instead of a "You're absolutely right" I'll just drop this here:

    https://itvision.altervista.org/why...
  • 0
    @dindin Oh sure, I know this. Hey, I gathered experience with Linux already in the previous century on an 80486-120 when some fellow ranters here were not even the lustful glance in their parents' eyes. ^^
  • 1
    would love to hear from you or one of the mentioned internals guys in which fields the NT kernel is superior to the Linux kernel.
  • 1
    @offworld What I like about the Windows scheduler for desktop use is the dynamic priorities. If you have a thread that's blocked on I/O or an event, and it wakes up, it will get a short term prio boost to provide snappier reaction.

    Also, applications can use real thread prios, i.e. high prio threads really shutting out low prio ones. It's easy to get this wrong, but especially for media and recording, it's actually useful.

    Obviously, these features don't make sense on a server and/or are even dangerous if users can start their own processes.
  • 0
    @Fast-Nop this is super interesting! so would you qualify that as an example where the NT developers optimized the kernel more for desktop usage?
  • 3
    @offworld Yes. Even more, the kernel is written with GUI use in mind because that's where you actually notice the snappiness. Also, GUI and kernel are not separate in Windows because it's optimised for single user interactive use. That's also why Windows applications are typically monoliths instead of GUI frontends for CLI backends.
  • 0
    @offworld NT kernel is very power efficient
    Linux is power hogging kernel
  • 2
    @Fast-Nop Interesting, because I have never seen a Windows installation on the same hardware being more "snappy" than a Linux one (if you ignore new and experimental desktop environments).
    In fact, it is Windows where GUIs hang, where the desktop needs forever to become responsive, where there are random micro hangups, where everything just freezes for a second...
    I am MUCH less frustrated since I use Ubuntu Gnome on a daily basis.
  • 1
    @gitlog This is not generally true. On server and desktop systems, a Linux machine in fact needs less power than the Windows one, mainly because of the slimmer design.
    Only on laptops Linus needs more power on Windows, but that's the fault of the hardware manufacturers who make energy efficiency mode only accessible for Windows.
  • 1
    @Benedikt Of course you don't see applications like Word or Excel hanging on Linux because it doesn't exist. Also, you're confusing userland and kernel.

    And no, crappy laptop management isn't the fault of the manufacturers. It's that the market is irrelevant, and that's largely the fault of the Linux community who has always been saying they neither want nor need dumb users. That's why the market stays irrelevant. The manufacturers just don't waste their time on an irrelevant dwarf market.
  • 5
    @Fast-Nop Interesting, because other manufactorers do not see Linux as irrelevant. Namely AMD which is a supporter of open source and produces great drivers for Linux. Or Valve which makes Steam and with Proton invests million into bringing games to Linux. All the indie developers with nearly no money that bring their games to Linux.
    Or even Microsoft that respects Linux as a growing concurrence by now. VSCode for example that supports Linux.
    Most of the software exists as native Linux binaries, many have alternatives. There is Excel on Linux; it is called Libre Office Calc, a much better alternative than the Office products of Microsoft.
    Wine has become awesome.

    Linux Desktop is growing rapidly. Linux server is dominating. Linux mobile is dominating.
    My 60 years old father with no computer knowledge, being a simple worker, managed to install Ubuntu last year by himself, the first time in his life, because he was so fucked up by Windows.
    If he can do that, everyone can nowadays.
  • 1
    @Fast-Nop not that that isn't true to some extent or another, I would imagine microsoft kick them incentives to help fund the development. Think that's really standard business practice when you sit at the top of the financial food chain.

    But your right, in some respects the linux community is its own worst enemy. You can't hope to compete if you don't refine things for mass consumption, whether you charge for your product or not.

    Even if you do the masses aren't going to pay you if you give them the option, not what its worth anyway. Most are barely keeping their head above water as it is and a computer is not even remotely a necessity to them.
  • 0
    @Benedikt linux or droid and chrome 🤔
  • 0
    @M1sf3t What do you mean with the question? I fear I do not understand you correctly.
  • 0
    @Benedikt Linux desktop isn't growing, gaming on Linux still sucks, and LibreOffice isn't an alternative to Office except for home use. Get real.

    Linux is great on servers, that's where the investment goes, it sucks for embedded but doesn't cost royalties, and Google has poured billions into hiding Linux away on Android, and they're stuck with an ancient Linux kernel because Linux doesn't even have a driver level architecture.
  • 0
    @Benedikt you'll have to verify the actual dates but I seem to remember at one point or another coming across something that insinuated that a lot of your personal linux stuff didn't really start coming along until google stepped into the market. So there again linux community trying to do things the free way lags.

    And I'm not trying to cast shade at the concept of free open source, I'm just saying as long as we have the free market standards that we have to day, that mentality is always going to find you second at the table when it comes to the grand scheme of things.

    Especially it when it comes to hardware, the current trade laws come down a lot harder on companies that don't pay other companies vs companies that don't pay their employees. Tech debt for software being the latter of the two situations, a company paying back its bank and wholesale part loans the former.
  • 3
    @Fast-Nop Linux desktop is growing. If you have a look at Net Market Share it's share has risen from 0.91% in 2011 to 3.37% in 2019. It's far from dominating, yes, but it is steadily growing.
    Gaming on Linux does not "suck". I am a gamer, not heavy but regularly and with mostly new games, and use Linux with only very few exceptions which become fewer and fewer.
    I use LibreOffice at home because it is better and more comfortable than the Office products. And I am not alone, we use it at work professionally and are very happy with it.

    And embedded... please, you will not really suggest Windows for embedded, won't you? Because if the hardware gets minimal, Linux will be your only option. And it's a great one.

    I can understand why you personally not like Linux. But continuously saying that it "sucks" with no reason is what I cannot understand. That's very irrational.
  • 1
    @Benedikt Oh 3%, yeah that's a breakthrough of course. Btw. I had Linux as only home OS for 9 years, until Win7 came along, which requires so much less maintenance. I can cope with Linux, and it still sucked.

    And all the shit that you're telling is EXACTLY the thing the Linux community needs to fucking stop doing. Nonononono there's no problem. Get real, there are, and it's YOUR stance that has made sure the issues went unaddressed for years!

    Embedded Linux is a shitshow because ARM SoCs aren't standardised like x86 PCs. You get an outdated board support package from the HW vendor, it's even more crappy if you need graphics, but it's cheap because no royalties. Guess why Linux devices don't get updates. Companies don't care and just push out shit as cheaply as possible. They aren't using Linux because it's great, they're using it for not paying royalties for VxWorks and the like.
  • 3
    @Wiciaki While I actually do understand your frustration, you're stating some things as general facts while they are not.

    I guess every os has their good and bad fanbase/userbase and it seems that you've stumbled across a bad one 😬

    "Linux is only free if your time is worth nothing"

    You're stating that as a fact while its a personal experience for you.

    I've been a Linux user for about 9,5 years now and genuinely have hardly ever had to do heavy fixing (except for if I fucked up stuff myself but being a super user and still learning after all those years... I don't blame the system for my own fuckups).

    Recent example is my current setup with some weird amd sub branded video card (6 screen setup) which literally worked perfectly at first try.

    For me, every minute I spend on the system is a minute well spent!

    So yeah, hi.
  • 3
    @Fast-Nop I think a growth of 300% is quite a lot tho. Also if you used Linux before windows 7, a lot had changed since than.

    I'm a Linux fanboy but yeah Linux isn't perfect same for Windows. I honestly get more frustrated when using Windows than by using Linux. But just use what's best for you.
  • 4
    I say we campaign for better Gnux(Gnu/Linux for the absolut accuracyNazis) graphical support. Like, this has been too long and I need very good gaming for my desktop too 😝
  • 3
    The only notable hole in support, as Linux gaming is concerned, is new AAA games, and 1) that hole is closing as wine and proton development proceed at the staggering pace they've achieved in the last 18 months, and 2) the vast majority of AAA releases now are bug-ridden afterthoughts of console ports, with tedium built into them to drive microtransactions. As such, they don't typically remain in the social consciousness for more than a month or two, as their dynamics drive customers away. My point is: the AAA hole is no great loss.

    If you haven't tried to make a Linux desktop your desktop in the last 12 to 15 months-- and put in the time required to learn and customize --then your knowledge on the topic is too dated to be applicable.
  • 0
    > shittier UX

    true story bro, have a look on thunderbird
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