I'm a 23 year old web developer from India. I don't know why getting job outside India is hard and people from other countries think of Indian devs as cheap labor or low skilled. That sucks😑😐

  • 6
    They are outsourcing work to india because it is cheap and skilled people are actually available in india. They would outsource the work to an indian rather than hiring someone from india. I didnt understand where did you get the "low skilled" reference. Maybe indians are "low standarded". but not low skilled . Which part of india are you from?
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    @sandeepbalan I'm from Bengaluru. Here plenty of jobs are available and got some offers too. But when it comes to applying jobs in the other countries, most employers would judge us like bit weird and like low skilled.😐
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    @sandeepbalan unfortunately the idea that indian devs arent skilled is an actual prejudice at least in the eu
  • 11
    Because of cultural differences. Indians can be very skilled technically, but in often cases western folks and eastern ones have a different understanding of the same things. Like 'I will', 'by eod', 'is it A or B? -Yes', jugaad and others, which makes it difficult to work with them/you. 6 years xp of working with indians. They do drive me mad. But now I do realize this is how you live, this is how you tick. Yet it's still difficult
  • 13
    It's because India does have huge problems that rightfully lead to people being sceptical. Outsourcing means to hand over tedious tasks of low complexity, that's what actually works.

    1) Rote learning education crams in unconnected facts, but there's no understanding.

    2) There is no tech career in India. The good devs QUIT developing as soon as they can and become managers. That leaves two categories of devs: bright, but inexprienced (and soon be gone), and older, but totally clueless.

    3) Communication issues. The half Asian culture in India has problems around "no" and "losing face", which leads to fucked up estimates and promises if you don't critically check everything.

    4) For the same reason, they will happily implement total BS just to avoid discussion. That doesn't allow more than an outlocated workbench for low value tasks, and of course that translates into low pay.

    Not saying that this is true in every single case, but often enough to justify the perception.
  • 11
    I've worked with remote Indians from multiple companies and they do know programming, they don't know project management.

    Basically what they make is exactly what is asked without any possibility to extend the functionality a few weeks later. If they get asked to perform a small change they have to start over.

    Ive also worked with a local team of Indians and they have the same results unless you add a manager who constantly checks their code and direct it in a certain direction.

    It is probably not for all Indian devs but it is for the devs I've worked with.
    It's similar for Kenyans, Brazilians and a few other countries I've worked with.
  • 8
    In addition to everything that has been said, do keep in mind that "India" represents lots of people, which means that "we" (as in anyone from another part of the world) get to see many horrendous people even though it might be the same percentage as a random other country.
  • 2
    My personal experience with outsourcing to India was that failures occurred regularly at the project management level. Unfortunately whether that was due to poor management, culture clash, bad developers, or something else was always undiscoverable. But, because shit rolls downhill, that kind of experience feeds into the "Indian developers are bad" stereotype. Ironically, I usually have the opposite experience with individual Indian developers that I deal with directly.
  • 1
    Esthetics are different. India is loud chaotic and colorful. (and wonderful).
    In Europe that's not the case. So if a indian webdesigner designs with his indian context and sense for esthetics it's hard to match the european stylistic expectation.

    In india every month a million young people join the workforce. And competition for jobs is fierce. That results to things like wordpress websites for ridiculously low $5. Why should anybody hire an experienced developer if you get a website made for 5$? So there are too many indian webdevs. In your case if you'd like to work abroad please specialize. Preferably in Machine Learning.
  • 6
    I know and work with some very skilled Indian devs but the problem is that 70% of all devs are shit.
    Indias Population is huge, therefore the amount of Indian developers is huge.
    Also in India 70% are shit but there are way more devs from India. So there are more shitty Indian devs but also more good Indian devs..

    People like to see the negative stuff so they remember the bad ones I guess.

    Some people (I used to think like this, sorry about that) are really annoyed by Indian devs who put in English YT titles but then it’s in Hindi or Tamil, or Indians who have such a strong accent that no one understands them, so Indian devs are associated with something bad.

    I know it’s wrong to think that way and I only thought like that until I realized that it’s not true at all..

    But if it helps, I (being German) face similar issues because everyone things german devs can’t get anything done because they keep working on one thing until it’s 100% done and Software is Never 100% done.
  • 1
    Most companies are sceptical when employing devs remotely. It doesn't have to do with India, Norway, Germany or any particular country.
  • 2
    From personal experience, I don't discount them, but trust is an issue, as is sifting through hundreds of resume. Some examples as to why:

    1. I've had onshore resources where the representative firm used a ringer in the phone interview, and sent someone else to work the job (obvious difference in language capability, knowledge gap is huge, even on tasks related to interview question). It becomes less of question of did the person I talked to have skills than will I actually get that person.
    2. I've had offshore vendors replace people without warning, and sometimes without actually telling us until we call them on it (telling the person to pretend to be the previous dev).
    3. Too many actually low skilled people, too little time to interview
    4. Companies I work with won't allow me to hire individuals, and companies like Tata, HCL, Infy don't provide great people
    5. Communication skills can be low, don't interview well
    6. Lying on resumes, failing to verify education has become common
  • 4
    @SortOfTested The exchanges come from the horrible attrition rate in India. This in turn is because inflation is considerable, but most companies refuse raises. The only way for a raise just to keep up with inflation is getting a new job.

    The consequence is that you have to deal with ever new people, lessons learnt are lost before the project even ends, let alone for the next one, and you have to say everything even more often than what the Indian communication culture itself already requires.

    It gets worse with big Indian companies because they really don't give a fuck about their individual customers.

    Well and of course you don't hire an Indian dev outside of India (except maybe for H1B under conditions that count as outright exploitation) because a cheap Indian dev is only cheap as long as he's in India.

    The exception to that are experienced and good devs who want a tech career instead of management so that they leave India. They aren't cheap of course, but worth their money.
  • 2
    Truth, sadly. I could write a book on the business strategy in that market.
  • 0
    But in MALAYSIA, my country you will actually get highpay. Because stereotypes suggest that anyone local must be stupid. -.-
  • 4
    Indian outsourcing companies only care about getting a contract and then doing it *somehow*, ad infinitum, at minimum cost. Job satisfaction? Fuck that. Good work culture and growth? Nope, too expensive. Good project structure and management? Nah, good PMs cost too much to retain. Also the employee's position vs the employer is really weak so employees have no bargaining power - if they don't like their job they'll just be kicked out and replaced by the huge number of people who want that job (because it's still better than a lot of others). If they want to improve, management is basically the only path because none of these companies do advanced tech stuff.

    Because of this, what most other people see of Indian devs is the lowly-paid, shoddily trained, frequently replaced, high attrition rate, low job security side. Naturally that kind of thing doesn't have a really good reputation.

    Also, poor communication skills and some cultural unfortunates - lack of directness, for example.
  • 3
    @heyheni I've encountered that with Kenyans personally. They designed a website in all red green colors with a bit of white and black. They had it so that there could be green text on a red background. Because it was pretty.
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    @Codex404 Yeah because who cares whether shit is legible. Admittedly, such incompetent idiots who have no business making websites also exist in the West - it's just that they prefer light grey on white background in thin-glyph crappy webfonts.
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    @Fast-Nop oh yeah. Google, Atlassian, etc.
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    @starksid so as you see many devRanters have their fair share of expiriences with indians. I hope you see why it is hard to find a job abroad.

    However to be more useful to you, you may want to tell us what you already did try. And what steps did you take? Do you think your cv is appropriate for the countries you applied? Where did you apply? Did you think of reasons for potential employers on why to hire you? What is your motivation for wanting to leave India? And what reasons did they tell you in the rejection letter?
  • 1
    @heyheni I have made my online portfolio site and CV. i think i don't have a proper CV format with respect to that specific country. I applied mostly on Startups in Netherlands. I want to work with startups as they have challenges to solve and great environment, working without micromanagement etc. and it's reason why companies should hire me. My motivation to leave India is to explore new countries, new work culture and a new environment.

    In the rejection emails i heard only "We have decided to move forward with another candidate"
  • 1
    let's see

    hey yo @linuxxx do you mind helping this chap out by posting some dutch IT job websites? and tell a bit about the dutch job market, cv specialities, job hunting tipps? thank you very much. 🙂
  • 0
    @heyheni Thank you very much. your help is appreciated 😊
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    @starksid also i would do some research into germany. They have special federal programm to attract indian IT talent as Germany is short on qualified workers.
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    @heyheni I heard that Germany needs the workers to have a degree in that specific field. Is that true? I'm a self taught guy and don't have a degree 😕
  • 0
    @starksid without formal education it's hard everywhere. But you've got to try 🙂

    Also here is a fellow indian who've got the chance to work in munich germany for 6 months. You may want to ask him for advice. https://devrant.com/rants/1951211/...
  • 0
    @heyheni Thanks I would do some research on Germany based job opportunities. Thank you very much for your help 🤗
  • 2
    @starksid In Germany, you will have problems finding an IT job even as local if you don't have a degree. With no formal education, you would count as unskilled worker.

    Also, the entry barrier specifically for web dev is so low that there is no shortage of devs. It's also why most websites are total train wrecks where the devs can't even get basics right, but that's a worldwide phenomenon.
  • 3
    @Fast-Nop l love how you don't pass up a single opportunity to shit on modern websites xD
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    @RememberMe I guessed you missed a recent thread where an established DR member advertised an HTML/CSS bootcamp that he offered because he felt many web devs did that wrong.

    While his website was among the better ones, I still tore it apart for a multitude of failings. He deleted the whole thread, that's how bad the advertisement had turned. ^^
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    @RememberMe As everyone should! I almost regret the "iframe days"...
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    @starksid Im from the Netherlands and Ive tried getting a dev job for three years being a self taught dev. No luck. I did a three year study way below my level and got a job right away.

    You would have to be an exceptional dev to be hired without education and be a foreigner. Companies will prefer someone who knows the Netherlands and at least enough of the language to communicate. Hiring a foreigner is just a bigger risk in all kinds of ways. Culture, language, day to day life, weather etc. All kinds of factors which can cause a dev to leave.

    I wish you the best but without education I think your chances of finding a job in The Netherlands are 0.1%
  • 3
    @heyheni Certainly!

    An important thing to know (although this depends on the company) is that the level of degree you have can be a very decisive factor. We've got studies at MBO (more practical/'low' level), HBO (inbetween) and university level (university level, high but not as practical) and for most IT jobs, a minimum of HBO is required although, if you can really show your worth, you can make it (I did MBO level at the highest sub-level (4) and am probably going into something HBO level right now).

    As for incomes it can really depend but as a junior, 1600-2200 is considered normal, with which you can live an average, good (but not too expensive) life. Just do NOT try to find housing in the major cities because its fucking expensive (or you must be insanely lucky).

    As for CV's I'm not entirely sure as I've always had a stock-templatey one which has always worked for me.

    Be prepared to learn the dutch language! Because except for the fact that it's useful in the Netherlands (Holland is two provinces, NOT the country), dutch people find it very annoying when foreigners don't learn Dutch.

    I'm not entirely sure how the job market works here but just try applying and make sure to gave a good motivation!

    Job sites that I know of:
    (Yeah I don't visit that many but these contain most listings, also those of recruiters). (I'll post more if I can think of any)

    While not all recruiters are great and they in general have a bad image, the dutch ones I've encountered are actually great!

    Also mentioning @yendinikhil on this one :) (hey mate)
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    @Codex404 Is it relatively easy to find a job in the Netherland from another European country without speaking the language? I'm a bit curious as it seems (to me) that such thing would be impossible in France. It can be hard enough finding something when you're a native, so I can't imagine if you're not able to communicate properly.
  • 1
    @Jilano it for sure is easier. Germans and Flemish people work here a lot.

    I had an Italian colleague who got homesick because of the Dutch directness and weather and no real friends.
    I also have a Russian colleague who adopted quickly, mainly because he came here with his wife, his English is perfect and he likes the directness and even participates in it.

    Generally speaking Germans and Flemish people find it easier to adapt than other cultures.

    I've never worked together with a France person but I think their mentality is more like that of Italians and Spanish people than the Dutch mentality.
    I also never worked with someone with Denmark but imagine their work mentality is more like the Dutch so it's easier to adapt.

    Remember that talking English isn't a problem at all. We just expect you to talk Dutch within a year or two.

    Maybe @CoffeeNCode can tell you a bit about her experience with starting to work in The Netherlands as German native?
  • 3
    @Codex404 thanks for the mention.
    @jilano, here's my 2 cents:
    First of all, what @Codex404 says is pretty accurate from my point of view, especially about the directness. I did apply to a job in Dutch, but especially bigger companies in the Amsterdam Rotterdam area + Eindhoven are generally fine with applications done in English (if unsure, mail them and ask). If you get a decent company, they'll even assist you with finding a Dutch language course.
    For work, English is fine, especially in the beginning. I would absolutely recommend learning Dutch though, it hugely helps with making friends outside of the expat bubble. Not gonna lie, it did take me a while to make some friends here, but then again, I'm an introvert. If you're willing to integrate, the Dutch are generally good people. Since not many people bother to learn the language of a small country, doing just that will get you bonus points, definitely.
    A general note: You won't need a work permit as long as you're an EU citizen, just a Dutch social security number. If you're not an EU citizen, things get more complicated. Your potential employer then needs to prove that they couldn't get an EU citizen for the position, which can be tricky to do, and a couple of other conditions apply, too. I can look it up if anyone needs more info.
  • 1
    @Codex404 @CoffeeNcode Thank you both for the information! I do believe you're right on the usual behaviour about France. French people tend to act more like a Latin country as opposed to our northern neighbours.
    Anyway, it was quite interesting to read. Who knows, I might give it a go one day!
  • 1
    @Jilano give a shout if I can be of help then. :)
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