• 16
    Why would they want to change it to something that means literally the same?

    It's like changing the word "Killed" to "Life ender". Still means the same.

    I'm my personal opinion they should not change it, GitHub should stay as a separate thing.

    If we had to change everything just because it triggers some people, we would have to change lots and lots of naming on computers.
  • 3
    Well....it’s about time someone did it.
  • 11
    Well, blocklist indeed is more precise. But passlist and allowlist sound odd to me (not a native English speaker though).
  • 7
    @Oktokolo native English speaker and it sounds weird as shit to me too lol
  • 13
    What happened to this guy? *sigh*
  • 8
    Someone in here got triggered and downvoted @Stuxnet comment and my comment.
  • 6
    @Bybit260 Just neutralized it.
  • 8
    @Bybit260 the weaklings are everywhere. Tragic
  • 17
    I hope the day come, when all SJW understand that words are not racists.

    How do you use the words and context that can be racists.

    Anyway ...
  • 14
    I want 2014 torvalds back
  • 6
    Silicon Valley was a mistake. I turned down several offers this year just because I don’t want to be around these chucklepuffs.
  • 6
    I can understand changing "master/slave". It's not going to make a particularly meaningful change but if it makes even 1 person feel more welcomed then that's good.

    I just can't understand changing "master" when it's used alone, meaning something completely different. Noone can *possibly* take offence
  • 9
    @Voxera my first comment is probably hidden at this point from people downvoting it, so let's do it again lol
  • 6
    @Stuxnet opinions are never wrong ;)

    They might be unpopular or distasteful but since an opinion never claims to be a truth they cannot be “wrong” :)

    Thats why I choose the word opinion.

    I do not claim to be right, just expressing how I see it.

    And I leave it up to the reader to make their own opinions.
  • 4
    @Voxera The topic is complicated to explain with plain words, you need to experience it yourself.

    What you said also applies to other races, "it's a constant reminder that they can be killed", I would bet 100 dollars that if you come to Texas (Where I live), and walk through a black neighborhood you can either get harassed or get your stuff taken.

    I know a girl, that was walking through a black neighborhood at 7 PM and got beaten and then they took their stuff. So there is an example of the common stereotype.

    Also, they are pretty fucking racist, they think they can say whatever the fuck they want without consequences. Just because they are black.

    Also, I don't agree with what police do to black people. Some of the stuff they do are inhumane.

    I'm not implying that all black people are like that, I have black friends that have very good manners. But some people like thieves or drug dealers ruin the game for everyone.
  • 4
    @pxeger in this I agree.

    Its not the word master in master/slave that is the bad one.

    And changing master/slave to something else is actually semantically good.

    As used in computers, the slave takes over if the master dies, something that never (or very rarely) happened with a real slave, they would just get sold.

    So master/slave does not really describe the intended behavior to begin with ;)
  • 2
    @Voxera that's two incorrect statements from you then lol

    They say third time's the charm so maybe the next one that comes from you will be correct πŸ˜‚

    But you're not wrong, for the most part. Some opinions are most definitely wrong.
  • 1
    @Voxera, the list goes on. But any race is perfect.
    But what triggers me is the reason that they are changing standard words.

    Changing the words just highlights how fucked up this world is, it won't make a difference.

    Some people want to make a difference, like some black dudes that are very smart, and do something to get a higher education. Thus getting out of those horrible neighborhoods, and helping their future family get a higher status. But on the other side of the spectrum, you have the ones that sell drugs, make gangs, and fucking get killed by other gangs.

    Who I respect are the black dudes that get a higher education, and don't expect the government to give them money or more privileges. And before anyone says that they are limited by schools, well let me tell you'll that I went to a high school in a black neighborhood. Those schools are on the same level as white neighborhood highschools. So I don't see the barrier that is stopping them from getting a higher education.
  • 7
    @Bybit260 exactly. I don't give a shit about the change, I give a shit about the reason why they're changing it.

    They're giving into a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of people that are genuinely weak enough to be offended by common words. And it's just bullshit pandering.
  • 7
    Linus has become a fucking wimp.
  • 2
    @Bybit260 Sure, but that could be due to how they have been treated.

    If you grow up constantly being oppressed you can end up hating the oppression. This does not excuse the use of violence but knowing the full history is a good start to try to fix the problem.

    Thats why I never said black since it was not only black people but others to. I did say white and Sweden to emphasize that I never had to experience it my self.

    And I have read the stories of Harlem and how dangerous it was (and maybe can be)

    But it does not change that slavery was bad in a way that most can never really grasp unless you have been on the receiving side, and discrimination is similar.

    In this case, changing words can bee seen as a hand reached out and an attempt to let history be just history.

    It might not solve the problem but might get more to see it.

    I do not know for sure, but I do know that the word slave has no historically good meaning.
  • 2
    @Bybit260 the reason why many black people get involved in crime is because of systemic poverty and lack of education - they do it out of necessity. Then this perpetuates because it is dangerous not to. It's not true to say they're just lazy, or stupid, or evil...
  • 4
    Reminder: politics is banned on devRant
  • 5
    @pxeger Necessity? How the fuck? I went to a black neighborhood high school. And I can tell you. The majority won't do shit to change that. Tell me, how the fuck they drop out of high school when the teacher will even give them 20+ points per test? It's so god damn easy to get a higher education, I can't stress that enough. It's not a necessity, its stupidity. Its the ignorance of not trying to get out of that rabbit hole.
  • 3
    @Fast-Nop Yeah, I think the same, how the fuck does an illegal immigrant and an Asian guy, more successful than a black dude.
  • 2
    @Voxera You have to see it to believe it. You should come sometime to the USA.
  • 5
    @Bybit260 as I said, poverty and lack of education. Their only option, or best option, is often to turn to crime to make money to keep afloat.

    Regarding higher education (I presume you mean university specifically) in the USA it's prohibitively expensive for the very poor. It's not easy to get a higher education when your family needs you to work to keep them alive. Statistics show that people whose families are well educated are far more likely to get a good higher education, causing social immobility

    American gun culture doesn't help in terms of crime either.

    By the way, here I'm talking about poor people not black people, but because of a lack of social mobility, this often means that certain groups are poor and stay poor, in the US that is disproportionately black people because of the history of slavery
  • 2
    @pxeger If you are not from the USA, you won't understand it.
  • 1
    @Bybit260 what is that supposed to mean? Which part do you think I'm misunderstanding?
  • 4
    @pxeger Everything. I used to think like you. You need to see it to believe it.
  • 2
    @Bybit260 I think I’ll wait until after the pandemic.
  • 3
    @pxeger Everything. I used to think like you. You need to see it to believe it.
  • 1
    @Bybit260 who's to say I haven't seen it
  • 5
    @pxeger Being here for a short time != seeing it lol
  • 2
    @Stuxnet Whether or not I've lived in the USA (as I said before, I have), the very same concepts exist all around the world and have existed for a long time. In Victorian Britain, it was white people who worked in factories. The same libertarian (is that the right word?) attitudes existed ("theyre just lazy/stupid") but without the racism because they happened to also be white. And now in the USA it's POC. I'm not joking when I say that if you read A Christmas Carol or many of Charles Dickens' novels or similar authors, then you'll see the same things you see in the US today
  • 2
    I never expected to see so many Kevin’s and Karen’s on DevRant. Might as well see Uncle Tom and Kanye West dropping some advice like “Slavery was a choice!”..
  • 4
    @Bybit260 The difference is attitude. Some people have a peasant/victim mindset where they are always oppressed just for being who they are. They find ways to blame others for their fate. It doesn't matter how many opportunities you give them, they will throw it away.

    This is coming from someone who grew up in poverty, in a criminal neighborhood. The difference between me (and the few who got out) and the ones who remained poor is taking responsibility of our actions as individuals. We don't scam the rich or become entitled to what we did not work for. We don't say "you have money, therefore you should pay for all my needs and wants".

    That is what I see with all the fuckery in the news today. Give me free stuff, give me power, give me everything because I demand it.
  • 3
    Half of y’all like this fooo over here
  • 5
    @pxeger Asian immigrants also had a bad start, but each generation did what they could to IMPROVE life for their children generation. You don't see that kind of long-term vision in black hoods, and you don't see it with the "white trash" class either.

    Renaming CS terms won't do shit to change that.
  • 1
    @Fast-Nop Asian immigrants didn't have it anywhere as near as badly as black people:
    - there were a lot fewer of them
    - they mostly came after the civil rights movement, so didn't come immediately into poverty, vs. many black people who were already there, and they could vote
    - they weren't ever slaves
    - they moved mainly to the more accepting cities, whereas lots of poorer black people lived in rural more racist areas
    - while their culture is often portrayed as just hard work, and it's partly true, but that's because if they didn't work hard they wouldn't have got to the US in the first place

    Yes I agree mostly with the idea that changing CS terms won't help the wider world. But if it includes a few more people, I can't see how that's a bad thing.
  • 3
    @pxeger Asians from actual time period, succeed. They have it harder because they start from scratch. Illegal immigrants from Latin America live in better neighborhoods than Black. How? How? There are some that only have been here in the USA for less than 20 years.
  • 1
    Cloud lobby from big three cloud providers in 3..2..1..
    Wait... they’re already there in cncf πŸ˜‚

    Looks like free cloud advertising to me.
  • 2
    @pxeger Fewer of them: they lacked community and had it even harder.
    Arrival: they arrived already in the 19th century AND worked their way up. Way before civil rights stuff.
    Slavery: doesn't matter after mid-19th century, and is no argument today.
    Moving: everyone could have moved. Moving in from Asia was certainly more of a relocation than within the same fucking country.

    But Asian moms don't waste the family's money to devour all shit until they weigh at least 400 pounds and instead use the money smarter, e.g. for education (even if not uni).

    Also, the family doesn't accept children to be too lazy for school and instead hang around on the streets to become good-for-nothings.

    And they don't have as many single moms who let themselves knock up by a useless but oh-so-manly thug when they were 16 and the thug went into prison two years later.

    All these self-destructive behaviours are as rampant in black hoods as with "white trash", and the outcome is the same in both groups.
  • 2
    @pxeger Also because it seems you won't understand.
  • 1
    @Bybit260 I really can't argue with you if you keep just saying I don't understand without actually trying to refute my points
  • 4
    @Stuxnet Moral high ground from Sweden isn't really a surprise.

    But nobody shouldnt really follow their example, while they are wasting their time on implementing unimportant things like political correctness.

    Meanwhile they where giving the fuck finger to their elders and sick people, but almost ignore the covid 19. Their so called tolerance and respect only extend to certain people.
  • 2
    @Frederick The Swedish model of integration with the resulting crime rates just proves that you can't throw tax money at the problem.
  • 1
    @Fast-Nop Quite ironic, the ones treated the worst by the society in Sweden are the ones loving the society and carry it the most.

    That should have been a clearly sign, that their plan is like a japanese kamikaze plane.
  • 2
    I don't necessarily mind the changes, some of these were already used in many technologies before and it barely matters if you give me a file named blacklist.txt or denylist.txt, or if my database spins up slaves or replicas.

    I do mind that the change is marked "more inclusive" when in reality there wasn't anything exclusive about master/slave and blacklist/whitelist to begin with.

    who did it exclude? you used the word "inclusive" so that implies someone was excluded... how do you exclude someone from technical terminology? Are you trying to tell me that every black programmer flinched everytime they read the word "blacklist" or "slave"? or that every white programmer celebrated the words "whitelist" or "master"?

    I've been in this field for over a decade and not once have I considered these to be exclusive in any way to anyone. People that can't stop separating their race or gender from the real world are highly insecure and damaged to begin with and this isn't the solution
  • 1
    I remember when I first learned the terms blacklist/whitelist I was confused a little because I wondered what have colours have to do at all with lists, and why those colours specifically. If we are using colours, I thought it would make more sense calling them redlist/greenlist. But that's it, I would change them just for clarity, not because of racism. Seeing racism in those words seems so far-fetched.
  • 0
    @pxeger you change something widely used even to please one person? This is just a prelude to minority tyranny.
  • 1

    > redlist/greenlist.

    Wouldn't that be a problem for color blind folk..
  • 1
    One ingredient no one seems to mention is genetics..

    I've lived in neighbourhoods of all colors.

    Some folk don't want to try.

    Some want to, but can't.

    Some want to, and can.

    Some places do have educational / job oppertunities, and some don't.

    In some, if you don't join a gang, are get picked on by all the gangs..

    Until you do join, you are dead, or you move away !

    So, much of what people have said is true, it just isn't always true, because genetics play a part in the answer.
  • 2
    @Nanos I was gonna say some people just have poor genes but I'd be taken less seriously if I did. :D
  • 0
    I tried to get a racist word changed recently, but a group of folk who normally consider lots of words racist, said this particular word wasn't.

    They then started to lecture me on how it was so wrong of me to consider it offensive at all !

    I'm sure there are a lot of other computer related words we need to change too..

    Child for example, isn't that a bit pedo like..

    And as for PDF files..


    > The IT Crowd - I'm Peter File
  • 3

    I never thought I'd see the day when you shied away from being worried about being taken not seriously. :-)

    I guess soon we might see farmers markets not selling prize bulls for the highest value, since I'm sure if they was just brought up right, they would be the worlds best bull. :-)

    Reminds me of something I saw the other day:

    It has more depth than you might first assume..
  • 2
    @Nanos Well, I usually don't care about being called racist, Nazi, or whatever but when I wrote that essay about experience being poor, I know some people will immediately divert to calling names instead of trying to understand the point. But yeah, there are some that should just be phased out. Lol.
  • 2

    When I think of master, I think of sub..

    I also think of Dr Who..

    Then I think of:

    Primary and Secondary, since I've seen that used in computer land.

    Primary reminds me of 12 Monkeys.


    I too remember being confused at first about colored lists !

    Talking of colours..

    Since some color names are already outlawed in some places, will this continue with other ones ?

    Actually, I just remember, you aren't supposed to use the word 'color' anymore..

    I'm trying to remember what the new 1984 word is, is it "shade" ?

    It can be quite educational to check the history of words, trouble is at some point, you can easily find its offensive to someone..

    Another word that should be considered to change is the sexually offensive male word of "poke", but "peek" is fine.

    I'm not sure about "gosub", that offend S&M folk, who for years I thought was some kind of chocolate candy like M&M's..
  • 0
    How about "inlist/outlist" ?

    Or will that offend wardrobe folk ?
  • 1
    I in general don't have problem with this changes because of inclusiveness. Don't really care as I come from Slovakia where we did not have black slaves. (if anything else we've been oppressed for a very long time, but no one here cares anymore)

    However from point of automation this a little bit terrifies me.
    So now we will need to change thousands of scripts that rely on master/slave and whitelist/blacklist? What about software/automation we have no control of. Will we be locked out of new linux kernels, distributions, databases, clustering soft?
    I've seen already used like 5 different versions for whitelist/blacklist alone and now the same is happening for master/slave.
    So about how many different options will we need to think when writing our automation.


    Well, guess positive is that it might be more work for system admins/automation people, which might even bring some money.
  • 1
    Why is the world so sensitive. I follow the movement but this is not necessary.
  • 5
    @Voxera Slavery isn’t the same everywhere.

    The sex trade in the Philippines involves the family selling a woman into service and she doesn’t have a choice to leave. In India there are brick factories where the workers join and the employer charges them money for living expenses which make it nearly impossible for a worker to repay the employer. Prisoners in the USA and China are often forced to do farming and forestry work. Temporary foreign workers in Canada are brought to work in agriculture and they aren’t paid much, they are away from family, they have few worker rights or advocates.

    The common aspect about modern slavery is that nobody likes to use the terms associated with slavery. We are actually doing a disservice to people in slavery by trying to remove the concept from language. By removing it conceptually we are breaking people’s ability to understand and discuss it in meaningful ways.
  • 0
    I heared, that in Slovakia, racism targets Roma instead of blacks.
  • 0
    @Oktokolo you’ve heard, or actually learned about it a bit. As there is tons of organizations/governement funding that are helping them. They are receiving new houses/flats for free. Schools and lunches for free, money from government. So if they are somehow targetted, wouldn’t say its negative. So you’ve heard wrong. My daughter is in a class of cca 25 children out of which 20 are from roma community.
  • 0
    @stefanjarina Not that they'd show any gratitude for that. There's good reason why nobody likes them.
  • 0
    nice, that that problem is getting fixed.
  • 1
    @Oktokolo Nah, I wouldn't say that it is getting fixed, just that they are not targeted with racism per se.
    Extremely high percentage of roma people just waste everything we throw at them unfortunately.
    They got completely new flat for free, it is destroyed in 3 years. They received a completely new city block, completely destroyed in 30 years.
    If they receive money from government (I've seen them receive 3x the pay of cashier) and they put it to gambling and to alcohol/drugs.
    They send children to school, but often they do not want to learn at all.

    So no, problem is not getting fixed, bot Slovak people are out of ideas what to do. There are programs to integrate them, but if they don't want to, you can throw in billions and they go to waste.

    Thus I strongly disagree with "racism targeted at roma people" notion as that is simply not true.
    If so, by individuals, but that is everywhere.
  • 3
    tf happened to linus
  • 2
    @irene Ayn Rand’s Anthem explains this quite nicely. George Orwell’s 1984, too. In both books, the governments ban words that allow any meaningful discussion of forbidden topics — specifically those that would undermine government control or allow individuality and self expression.

    It’s not particularly surprising that Anthem has fallen out of favor and can get you accused of being a horrible person or a Nazi if you bring it up. I’m honestly surprised it hasn’t been banned from schools here in the states. Or maybe it has been since I last looked.

    The world is becoming a pretty scary place. Why do humans seem to want this? It quite literally makes everything worse.
  • 2
    @Root Assuming that the average and below average folks follow trends decisively without much contemplation you always land on a tyrannical majority. When the majority holds an opinion even the people that have critical thinking skills will cave to the majority. That leaves a small powerless minority that understand what is good beyond the majority understanding. Popular opinion can’t define truth.

    This was Socrates main issue with democracy. If you get a bunch of people on a ship and set sail do you want the informed seafarers making decisions or do you want a select few that are trained and experienced in making decisions about sailing? The common person sees a storm and turns sideways making the boat vulnerable to capsize and being run aground. The crew points the bow into the storm, drops the mains for stability and rides the storm out to sea where it’s safe.
  • 0
    @irene That's a misunderstanding of democracy. It's not about optimisation, but legitimation. The masses WILL initiate a change sooner or later if the elite screws them.

    Democracy provides a systematic, orderly process for that so that no violent revolution is required. Such a revolution, no matter who wins, guarantees that those who win are well versed at violence, and they won't turn into lambs just because the revolution is over.
  • 1
    @irene That is my issue with democracy as well. Uninformed and stupid people’s votes count for just as much as those who understand the full implications of what is going on.

    However, I don’t know of a solution because corruption is always part of the equation. If you require passing a test in order to vote, who grades the tests? Who writes the test? Who proctors the test? How do you handle leaked tests? Who watches to makes sure these people aren’t corrupt? And who watches the watchmen? Like cancer, corruption spreads, and it destroys everything it touches.

    On a related note, the best and fastest way to make things worse is to allow as many people as possible to vote. This dilutes the average quality as the vast majority of people have no idea and no cares about what is going on. So whichever candidates offer the most handouts or the best-sounding promises tend to win, and not on merit.
  • 1
    @Root What about separatism? Create an island of the smartest smarty pants.
  • 2
    @irene And who will do the dirty/dumb work then?
  • 3
    @irene That’s happened before. The best and the brightest China had to offer founded modern day Japan.
  • 1
  • 2
    @Fast-Nop The smart people are smart enough to import stupidity and export it when it becomes a liability.
  • 2
    Well, you guys could conquer madagascar and kill all lives to build your own super version of japan.
  • 2
    @Frederick I will call it "The Democratic Republic of Japanigascar"
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