I have noticed that even here there are people who need this explained to them, so here you go, you're welcome.

@devjesus
you clearly do not understand the diagram.
i'm sorry, but I don't know how to dumb it down even further.

@devjesus Your polarizing comment is one of the reasons why discussions about COVID and the vaccine are so difficult.
Fact is, that there is no objective truth, that the vaccine works. No longterm studies have been done and it has been rushed to the public, as safe as possible, trying prevent further infections with the virus.
There have been cases of reinfection even with both vaccine shots in the affected persons (the latest example are the "texas democrats" which left the plane to prevent a vote).
Let tge people decide for themself whether they want the shots or not. It's enought that the US government is trying to censor "misinformation" (in their opinion) and critical voices against the vaccine.
It's comments like yours which make the situation much worse.

Although this is the same logic I follow, it's because I don't want to create drama.

If I were a more honest person I would tell those who are unvaccinated by choice how selfish they are.

They are only thinking about their own values and not of the risks and lives of those who cannot get the vaccine due to health complications or age.

The question,"should I get vaccinated?", should always be answered with,"if I can."

The sadist in me wants these chosen unvaccinated to continue to fight the choice though. For my own selfish reasons I want these idiots to learn from their mistakes painfully or die trying.

Nothing tastes better than the schadenfreude they generate.

@sariel i don't accept the selfishness "argument" anymore. i have the same right to force them to vaccinate, despite their own choice not to, as they have to force me to vaccinate, despite my own choice not to.

that is: none.

i can also flip it around: they are being selfish by choosing not to vaccinate out of worries that it would do them bad.
that's selfish, according to the logic used, they should think of everyone else instead of themselves.

it cuts both ways the same, therefore it's not an argument for either side, therefore i don't accept it anymore.

@Midnight-shcode you're clearly not using logic at all. Have you heard of game theory?

@Midnight-shcode whether you accept it or not doesn't change the facts dude.

MRNA vaccines have been in research for about 20 years. They've been in development for 10 years. Human trials for about 7 years.

They are no more dangerous than any other type of vaccine.

The arguments these idiots are being fed are preposterous.

If you don't get the vaccine by preference you're part of the problem.

It's. Just. That. Simple.

@Midnight-shcode no, some are actually allergic to specific vaccines. There are people who cannot be vaccinated because of that.

I don't care about this debate whatsoever but can everyone please stop doing this:

@iiii ...so?
there are people allergic to peanuts. they don't lobby for global peanut ban, instead they pay attention to avoiding peanuts.

oh, and on top of that, peanut allergy is about 100% more deadly than kung flu.

changes nothing about the point: take care of your own fucking health by your own means and leave me the fuck alone. how can people be so stupid to refuse to understand this?
end. of. discussion.
plastic quarantine bubbles exist, if you're so terrified of dying that you're willing to fascist others into doing what you want, for your sake, you're also terrified enough to live in a plastic quarantine bubble. so unless you're a fucking fascist, do that instead.
end. of. discussion.

@Midnight-shcode murican much, eh? Such a strong and totally useless individualism

@Midnight-shcode also you clearly don't have a fucking clue what fascism is. Educate yourself, scum, before throwing such accusations at any human.

The real conundrum is this:

If everyone gets vaccinated

-> if vaccine works: we're all safe

-> if vaccine doesn't work: we're all unsafe

if some gets vaccinated

-> if vaccine works: still unsafe until 70% vac'd

-> if vaccine doesn't work: still unsafe

Following reasonable logic with just this data would dictate we should all get vaccinated still, because that's the only path with at least 50% success rate

but if you factor in that the vaccine is potentially dangerous, the graph changes into "no one should get vaccinated, because not only it might be useless, it might actively hurt everyone"

Cont'd:

so it boils down to "is it safe?"

But we've been studying vaccines (yes, even mRNA) for decades. We never had a widely used mRNA vaccine for humans until now, that's true, but it's not "a new technology" as some say. Some sources state that mRNA vaccines are actually safer with less side-effects than classic vaccines (which btw, are also up for grabs against COVID)

This is up for everyone to look up and research on their own... but I suggest you don't just make assumptions blindly based off hype nonsense like "NEW VACCINE, UNTESTED, BAD". It's not really new, we understand the mechanisms really well (we fucking engineered this awesome thing) and actual research shows, that it's completely transient and leaves your body within weeks. We even understand that the protection is only temporary, so after about a year you're even clear of the antibodies that were produced unless something keeps activating them (like the virus, lol)

@iiii lol, no, i'm from europe

@Hazarth you forgot "if there's another reason why this is all pushed - > we have no idea how and why we are currently getting royally fucked"

@Midnight-shcode you should probably go to murica then. You'll be like home there with your views.

@molaram as all vaccines are. If you aren't naturally having a well working immunity, vaccines can only do so much.

Like, if your antivirus is shit, no amount of virus signatures will help it.

@Midnight-shcode holy shit you're so God damned dense.

The fact that you used the term "kung flu" instantly makes me lose all respect in you and your ideas.

I thought there was hope for an educated discussion, but I am obviously wrong.

I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

@molaram I'm agreeing with you and @iiii

This chode is just too dense to get through to. I say this because there's nothing you can do to convince these idiots that the only way to stop the spread of a virus is through vaccination and social distancing.

The only thing you accomplish is waste time and raise your cortisol.

When you argue with people (and I'm using that term loosely) that are antivax, you can cut through all the bullshit with one question.

Are you vaccinated by choice?

If the answer is anything, and I mean anything, other than yes -- ignore this person and walk away because they will never understand because they're too egotistical to see things from any other perspective.

@sariel insults and ad hominems are not arguments.

@sariel @sariel i enjoy an amusing name which is also descriptive for a non-amusing thing.

you not being able or willing to discuss just because of that is your problem

@iiii "you should probably go to murica then. You'll be like home there with your views."

i doubt it since american government is almost fully fascist by now.

@Midnight-shcode are you vaccinated by choice?

@sariel
"holy shit you're so God damned dense."

yes, so dense that i'm unwilling to submit to fascism.

because that's the question: are you a fascist or are you able to accept that individuals have their own choice? regardless of consequences.

is the human principle the self-determination, or is the human principle the imposement of whatever arbitrary bullshit by whomever arbitrary decided it's best for everyone? because that's the difference.

either "people are free and let's bear the consequences", or "people are slaves to a dictator, and let's bear the consequences"

that's it. that is literally it. nothing else.
i'm on the side of not fascists.

@sariel
"I thought there was hope for an educated discussion, but I am obviously wrong."

yeah well if specific words put you off from communicating with a person who's spent 10 years getting informed about all of this stuff daily.... that's on you, not me.

@Midnight-shcode so that's a no.

What a waste of a life.

@sariel
"that the only way to stop the spread of a virus is through vaccination and social distancing."

you dummy.
we're over the curve. when's the last time you looked at the stats and graphs? because i do it almost daily. when's the last time you did?

i expect never, because you seem to go along with the bullshit media narrative. because if you actually looked at the numbers, you wouldn't be writing this nonsense.

get back to reading the graph and leave me the fuck alone.

@sariel I am NOT VACCINATED, by choice.

i thought that was pretty clear

@sariel
"What a waste of a life."

you generator of hysterics XD

@sariel
"What a waste of a life."

also, even if i died of the new flu, which i won't, because 99.9% survival rate... don't pretend you'd take it as a waste.

@molaram i hope you haven't forgotten to sanitize your popcorn with alcohol, otherwise the fascist pansies in here will crucify you for what a danger you are to the humanity

@molaram
"my main reason was the upcoming travel restrictions, i get antsy if i don't get blown on at least 2 different continents each quarter"

exactly. my reason to not get them is to not submit to the creeping fascism. but i get you not being willing to let the fascism causing trouble to you.

i just hate the fucking fascists who think their moralizing is anything else than advocating for fascism.

I think this thread is starting to be a subject to Godwin's Law. This will no longer be a fruitful discussion for anyone if fascism is brought into the mix out of nowhere.

@sariel @iiii @hazarth @LotsOfCaffeine @devjesus answer my proposal two posts (F u hazarth for complicating it) above this comment, thank you

@Hazarth no, this is not about godwin's law. this is about actual definition of fascism. answer the proposal.

You forgot to not take into account opinions.
There's people dying, what could be worse than being an idiot about this? It should NOT be tolerated.

@Midnight-shcode

Lol ok

dude, you're really just comparing "controlling the rate of women giving birth" to "reee, I couldn't go on vacation for a year because old people were dying"

are you ok?

Also wtf do you mean by "cancel" ? at best it was made less comfortable at worst it was always temporary... Arguably if people behaved like normal intelligent beings, wore their fucking masks and stopped traveling when it was asked of them, it could've taken 4 months instead of 12... So you can thank those people... the infection numbers and full hospitals didn't fall out of the sky...

This is completely off-topic and a really weird equivalency, but even if I bite, funnily enough, the answer to the birth problem was the quarantine anyway, because people fucked a whole lot more. But that's still irrelevant.

there, that's my response to your "proposal" though I would struggle to even call it a thought experiment...

@molaram I do realize that, however your chances of spreading it are lessened because your immune system has a better chance of fighting it.

If your body isn't an infection vector then everyone benefits, that's how we reach herd immunity.

https://i.imgur.com/J7LANQ4.mp4

People who refuse to get vaccinated based on preference will never understand this though because they're just too self-centered and egotistical to see anything past themselves.

They are small, with small minds.

@c3r38r170 people are dying all the time, it's part of life. get a fuckin grip.

@molaram no, buddy, you DO get it. THEY don't get it, but are unable to get rid of their pseudomoral grandstanding.

@c3r38r170 awesome, another fascist

@Hazarth
"dude, you're really just comparing "controlling the rate of women giving birth" to "reee, I couldn't go on vacation for a year because old people were dying"

are you ok?"

same. fucking. thing. you. moron.

bodily autonomy vs the interests of the society.
same. fucking. thing.

@Hazarth
except you're a tiny fascist white knight mind so you see a difference because one case is "oh poor women who deserve to be free in all cases regardless of anything because oh poor women!"

and in the other case, nobody made you realize it's the same violation of bodily autonomy so you don't give a shit you fucking fascist.

jesus fuck why am i even surprised and disappointed.

okay, i'm done with this.

refer to the fucking flowchart in OP and leave me the fuck alone you fucks.

ARE YOU FINE WITH VIOLATING BODILY AUTONOMY OF AN INDIVIDUAL DUE TO INTERESTS OF SOCIETY?

IF YES, START DOING HANDMAIDEN'S TALE YOU FUCKS.

IF NO, LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE WITH THE STUPID VACCINES, YOU FUCKS.

ANY QUESTIONS? THEN GO FUCK YOUR TINY INCAPABLE GANGLIA YOU FUCKS.

DONE.

funny how their is a rant about the covid vaccine and a picture of the pedophile saint in the same place. coincidence ? I think not.

@Midnight-shcode i'm a little turned on now. can I violate his bodily autonomy some ? :P

@Midnight-shcode you seem to be pretty upset about taking a simple shot to the arm.

Your personal liberties are untouched, but that doesn't mean you cannot be called out as being feeble minded.

Don't be a bitch, go get your stitch. If not for yourself, do it for your family or friends.

Don’t listen to him he’s a psycho

I hope this whole post gets deleted as it leads nowhere and is completely unrelated to dev content.

My last 50 cents:
- Pro choicers (women on abortions): "My body, my choice!"
- Forced-vaccination critics: "My body, my choice!"

Somehow the pro choicers' opinion is mostly accepted yet the forced-vaccination critics get universally demonized.
It's almost as if people have forgotten that such issues are not just a question of pro or contra but every possible opinion in between as well. Fucking polarization cunts.

The US party system is a great example for this polarization: Either you vote for the "turd sandwich" (democrats) or the "giant douche" (republicans). Both parties hate each other more and more and can't even negotiate anymore in some cases. Get your shit together.

@PonySlaystation just want to be clear, I don't care if someone gets vaccinated.

I don't want the vaccine to be mandated. It shouldn't be. However, if your employer requires it, so be it. That's not a choice made by the government, that's your employer.

I do think that people should want to be vaccinated though. If not for themselves, then for their neighbors, or parents, or children.

My problem with people who refuse the vaccine is that they are so far up their own ass they can't see the bigger picture. They want less government control, but only when it's convenient. IE: "SAVE ME FROM THE VIRUS! but not like that!"

@sariel I tend to stay away from these arguments because I dislike seeing how selfish people are. In some treads I see the common phrase "why should I have to be mindful of others?" "why should I care if others get sick" or any other argument in which the idea of caring about the well being of our fellow citizens is such a fucking radical idea. To me it was simple really, I was not going to be the one to kill someone's grandma/grandad or whatever based on whatever strange political ideals I might have.

I hate this discussion, I hate this pandemic, it has brought about the absolute worst on people. And to be absolutely fucking honest, and horrible at the same time, I do not think it has taken as much of a toll as I was hoping it would.

@AleCx04 cleanse should happen..there are too many people overall.

@PonySlaystation it's not about choice as it is about consequences. Your argument with slogans is illogical at best, sorry.

@AleCx04
The pandemic just removed the veil and shown individual people for who they really are.

But I too was more dissapointed with their behavior than I expected. Everytime I start thinking people are not that bad they start doing something dumb that makes me faceplant hard

@iiii Consequences?
a) Is it more important for the wellbeing of our society that we are "saved from the virus" by FORCING people to vaccinate? (destroying the right or choice)
OR
b) Can the virus be handled by making vaccination a thing of choice and informing people as good as possible about the risks and benefits?

How the fuck is it an inherently "good" thing to force people to vaccinate?
The whole US media demonizes vaccination critics and censors "misinformation" (see latest statements of Jen Psaki) on public platforms like Fakebook and Twatter.

How the fuck is it not possible to get a critical discourse about such important topics? Why does the US government want to censor and remove critical voices?
Let the people inform themselves and decide, not an authoritarian government.

I am weirdly quite curious on OPs more-than-slightly twisted view on what’s fascism and who the fascists are… it’s quite like looking at the ’murican rhetoric on communism.

@sariel Why should an employer have the right to require his employees to be vaccinated?
What's next? Should an employer have the right to only employ people by one race or sex?

What about the right of equal opportunity?

No, it's NOT selfish to choose not to be vaccinated. There are valid reasons against it.

@PonySlaystation hmmm… I’ve not seen a valid reason for not getting the vax so far. Just curious, what do you see as such?

@100110111
- Possibility of strong immune response in some people
- No long-term trials (though mRNA is not new)
- Freedom of choice
- Removal of critical voices and vaccine hesitancy on social media

@PonySlaystation huh… okay, I was thinking there may be totally valid medical reasons for not getting a vax. I also get why someone may be apprehensive of mRNA because it’s a new term to most people. But that’s mostly intellectual laziness.

Besides that, I don’t even understand what you mean by your last bullet point, but freedom of choice is just selfishness veiled into a different rhetoric, hardly a valid reason why to choose not to take the vax.

To be honest, the funniest thing about the whole getting vaxed discussion in general is that it exists in the first place…

It's funny how a lot of debates end up with "I'm right, and the other opinions are dumb/fascist" (full disclosure, I didn't read the full thread, but I saw people calling each other fascist). It looks like nuance is rarely an acceptable way of thinking. Or is it that the more extreme people express themselves, the more visible they are in the conversation?

@nonox part of it is probably just that the more extremely opinionated dum dums are more likely to express their opinions than more moderate monkeys

@100110111 See the first 2 bullets as "medical reasons". I am no expert on vaccines so the list is incomplete.

Your argumentation is seriously flawed. Just because by YOUR OPINION "no valid reasons" exist, doesn't make it valid to think that getting vaccinated is a no-brainer. It's still a subjective choice whether to get a vaccine. We dont live in authoritarian countries.

@PonySlaystation I didn’t express an opinion that valid reasons to choose not the get vaccinated wouldn’t exist. Only that I can’t think of any (besides medical reasons).

I do think getting vaxed ought to be mandatory, though. Making it mandatory doesn’t render a country authoritarian yet (except maybe on ’murican standards). So at the moment, it is a subjective choice, but at the same time I do persist to think it’s a no-brainer, at least until I come across a valid contra-argument.

@100110111 Why exactly should COVID vaccination be mandatory in your opinion?

I get it that it "seems" like a "good" idea, but have you seriously thought about the consequences of manatory vaccination?
First of all a law has to be created, most likely a "law for emergency situations" written in general language so it can be applied to different pandemics as well.
It will be up to the government to decide when it is an emergency. Imagine all the burocracy and personnel needed to force people to vaccinate.
What will be the punishment for refusing a forced vaccination? Prison? A fine? Death row?

@PonySlaystation many countries actually do have some sort of a law for emergency situations as far as I’m aware. Also, mandatory vaccinations are not unprecedented, even in the US.

That said, I may have been a little rash earlier. Maybe vaccinations shouldn’t be mandatory - at least not yet. Depending on how the covid situation and the vaccination percentage play out, I would most definitely not be against them being made mandatory for the benefit of the bigger picture.

@PonySlaystation as for the punishments… obviously not for me to decide, but declining a de facto mandatory vaccination has in the history had, and in some places has, some of the following punishments: restricting access to public transport/places, denial of social benefits (for parents of unvaccinated children), denial of schooling (in some countries children can’t enroll to school if they aren’t vaccinated) and fines. In the 19th century punishments were likely harsher, but let’s not go there.

@iiii Scroll up 9 comments :)

@PonySlaystation the first reason is not a matter of choice. You are either having some sort of allergy or not. You are not choosing to have it.

Second one was already explained as mostly invalid.

Third one is not valid at all. It's not a freedom of choice. By the same definition of freedom of choice random people are allowed to kill or at least lock you up because you pose an epidemic threat. That's their freefom to protect themselves from idiots.

Last one is just incomprehensible.

@iiii The first bullet: People may choose not to get vaccinated because of the possibility of a strong immune response. I know of multiple close people a who had strong fever and muscle aches, some lost their sense of taste for 2 weeks.
In my opinion you seem pretty dense and unable to accept opposing opinions.

As per freedom of choice:
Your argumentation (choosing to murder people) is completely ridiculous and you know it. There are limits to personal freedom to have a functioning society. Murder is far over the border of freedom. Vaccine is still inside the border of freedom of choice.

@PonySlaystation oh that’s what you meant by the strong immune response point. Yeah, that is NOT a valid reason unless such an immune response has a significant chance of being fatal (case you have AIDS or something already, I guess?) If getting vaxed includes a significant likelihood of dying, yeah, not getting vaxed is a no-brainer.

@PonySlaystation that's why doctors actually screen people and ask about previous allergic reactions before administering vaccines. If someone has concerns that they may have an allergy then they should go to their damn doctor, instead of being a stupid dick.

Also those side effects you've described are normal and expected. They pose no threat and have no long term consequences. Again, normal reactions to vaccines: they cause immunity response as they should.

No, I do believe that someone posing immediate and dire threat to society should be eliminated if they are consciously refusing to take actions to reduce the threat. You won't talk to a terrorist who tries to spread a virus consciously to other people, but you somehow overlook lesser terrorists who consciously choose to be the spreaders.

@PonySlaystation and yes, I am consciously refusing to accept an opinion which is ridiculous and stupid from any reasonable and/or scientific standpoint.

@iiii Good luck enjoying authoritarianism. Your mindset, as expressed in the later half of your comment, is the reason why authoritarianism will never die out.
Comparing people who choose not to get vaccinated to terrorists is plain dumb.
"Yeah, let's put unvaccinated people in gulags, that'll show them!"
Imagine growing up in a free society built on the blood of your ancestors fighting against authoritarian regimes but then wishing to put dissidents in reeducation/work/death camps. 😅

@PonySlaystation authoritarianism will never die out because that how people generally operate. In small groups, there's always some authority. In larger groups, there's always an authority. In even larger groups, there is always an authority.

People are not bees or ants and will not ever be. Some authority is inevitable and will always persist. A group without a leader will always come to chaos and disdain. And the world democracy actually started to crack and show how dysfunctional it is for ruling large masses of people, including all those idiotic debates about freedom to not use vaccines to fight the fucking pandemic.

@iiii I'm not sure if you are at all familiar how science works.
Scinence is inherently based on finding out how our world works and it is inherently based on correcting mistakes from previpus results.
Science is not about "absolute truth" it's about FINDING truth and CHALLENGING existing truth.
Science does not define policies, that's the job of politics.
Politics INTERPRETS the findings in science and creates or changes laws as they see fit.
"Trust the science" is thus a misleading statement, as science is inherently the work of finding truth but not declaring truth.

There have been many, many old truths in history that had to be rewritten due to new scientific findings.

@PonySlaystation I'll just remind you that the science of vaccines is a pretty well studied and scientifically proven branch of medical science. Vaccines were used and are still used to fight many infections, and without them the population of earth would have been much smaller, just because people would have died en masse. (Though, maybe that would have been a good thing, because there's too much people. But that's an entirely different story)

It's not about politics at all.

@iiii I am aware of the science behind vaccines.

But vaccination in pandemics and the freedom to choose to get vaccinated are all about politics and how to inform people, which this whole thread is about.
Getting vaccinated is purely based on opinion of the individuals. Forcing vaccionations will lead to mistrust innthe government. Proper information of the public and allowing critical questions is the way to go, not mandates.

@PonySlaystation I'll also remind you how democracy works: the majority rules. If the majority decides you have to do something, you have to do that or be penalized or get the fuck out of the country. Not so much about freedom, eh?

Living in a society is always a trade-off between your personal freedom and the needs of society. And there are cases when your personal freedom means jack shit.

@PonySlaystation I'll also remind you that there are _mandatory_ vaccinations in every country. This one will be just a yet another one of those.

Also, I would like to remind you about the emergence of "extinct" diseases because some retards decided that vaccines are not necessary anymore.

I totally get that vaccines are (mostly) effective and backed by science, thus there should be no opposition to getting vaccinated,
BUT
that's not how the human way of making decisions works. Decision making is not just about "facts" or "truth". It's a process including emotions (situational and general).
In the case of general restrictions due to COVID since 2020, people are fed up by the consequences. Forcing vaccination would make the situation escalate.

@iiii so this seems like sophistry. polio is not the same as a nonexistent made up disease intended to scare the fuck out of people. and why are you commenting anyway ? life has no purpose, remember ?

everything is wonderful and great and I love big brother ! *cries*

@PonySlaystation people were discontent during the spanish flu as well. So what? People are mostly stupid small-minded animals, which rarely understand big picture problems even when the information is available (like global pandemic, or climate change, or tech waste). People will always discontent when something suddenly breaks status quo. That's not a reason to be gentle with them.

@YouAllSuck yeah, life has no inherent purpose. That does not mean I can't satisfy my boredom with some debates. I am not even that much pro people life at all. Let idiots die because of their stupidity.

@iiii I agree, anti-vaxxers are the reasons why such diseases get a new chance, but would it really be better to generally punish anti-vaxxers instead of working on a good information policy on why vaccines work and why we need them?
I gave to blame politics on this one.
Vaccines have becom such a "universally working truth" that there is no real discourse anymore and critical voices tend to get shut down. What do you think happens in the minds of such outcast individuals?
"The givernment is censoring me, they mus be hidin' sumthin"
This leads to conspiracy theories getting traction.

Free and honest information and allowing critical voices is the only way to go. Censorship, banning or declaring it "misinformation" will inevitably lead to the worsening of the situation. It's exactly what the current US administration is doing working together with social media platforms on "misinformation".

gg

@PonySlaystation, cleanse the population. Bioreactors are waiting. ;)

PS: USA is beyond salvation and I would advise to let it burn. That will be the best for the whole world.

@iiii you know and you mentioned these extinct diseases, which yes I remember everything from polio to smallpox showing back up.

and then someone basically army of 12 monkeys the world releasing a superbug from a lab 30 years after that movie was released and here we all are, how many repeats of this fake bullshit, again, still alive and kicking.

if there have been resurgences of the disease and they are not the type that can be trasmitted across animal species how did they survive ? polio is a virus. viruses don't just live off garbage they need a host to replicate.

small pox is also a virus.

if we killed these off, with the rush to vaccination, where are they coming from ?

of course polio can be caught by monkeys apparently.. thats why there are so many of them. and god knows people in the usa are crawling with monkeys, they fling their dung at me evetytime i wander outside, its a real problem !

@YouAllSuck honestly, I have no fucking idea what you are talking about...

@iiii IT NEVER DOES ! IT JUST LIES AND LIES AND LIES AND LIES AND LIES !!! UNTIL SOMEONE BEATS ITS FUCKING HEAD IN ! IF MORE PEOPLE TOLD THE FUCKING TRUTH WE WOULDN'T BE IN THIS MESS AND YOU AND I WOULD BOTH BE FREE AND PROBABLY SIPPING SOME FUCKING BRANDY ON A FUCKING BOAT SOMEWHERE DEBATING THE USE OF MOTIVATIONAL CONSTRUCT MODELING IN MACHINES ! INSTEAD WE'RE DEBATING THE SAME STUPID PROPAGANDA AND THE ENSUING ARGUMENTS THAT RESULT FROM IT WHICH IS JUST A WAY OF KEEPING PEOPLE LIVING LESS AND STUCK IN A DEEP WELL OF POINTLESS MISERABLE CONFLICT !

and i need some coffee. excuse me. but see. prime example. act, react, feedback loop, never ends.

https://youtube.com/watch/...

i should go find this bitch.

@YouAllSuck that's why I've said that they were "extinct". They were just in such a low concentration that they've caused no problems. Even right now, you are most probably infected with some sort of herpes virus (most of the human population is infected), but you are not sick. Dormant infections exist, and they are suppressed by better immune response caused by vaccines. Basically, you can get the infection, but you will get no symptoms just because of how fast your immunity will respond to it, and the infection can still circulate invisibly.

@YouAllSuck btw, laughed at "sit down gun"

@iiii I don't think the US are fucked but surely on the way to it as they have a demented and corrupt president, a completely useless vice president known for incarcerating countless blacks and a generally corrupt media (as shown by many leaks and whistleblowers). Rioters and looters are free to destroy businesses and face no consequences (release without bail by prosecutors in many cities).
BLM leaders buying mansions instead of actually helping black communities... the list is long 😄

I actually enjoy the current state of US politics, because it keeps on giving glorious memes.

Giving up is for the weak, though.

@PonySlaystation we were fucked the moment george w bush sr became head of the cia.

@iiii yes it is funny.

@PonySlaystation, US is also an incubator for lots of weird and dangerous ideas as well. They have produced much more informational threat than weapons.

devrant should let you link to which comment you're replying to.

@YouAllSuck you were fucked the moment Woodrow Wilson became the president

@YouAllSuck true. or some sort of quote

Best for us all is to just enjoy the memes and lean back. :)

you know. i wonder if i'm gonna die without finishing anything i started. its pretty pointless. i mean i'd either have to dissapear nightly amongst a pile of naked well exercised females and emerge in the moron for a pee, massive hydration large breakfast and then exercise all day, so i just care about anything, or this bullshit has to give and the horror needs to stop. i mean christ i'm hearing the same stupid people i was reintroduced to literally conversing about the same stupid shit and its all an act normally it can be interpreted as them pretending to be decent people secretly mentioning extremely unpleasant subjects to make themselves excited.

like if an ordinary guy was groping women at the office and proclaimed he was all for womens rights and sexual harassment was an epidemic

and thats a nice example since everyone who works with an attractive female and is attracted to females wants to grope them even though they don't. unless she's the office equivalent of a temple pros

@PonySlaystation an employer forcing employees to get vaccinated is not unconstitutional or unethical because they are not making the decision based on sex, race, or religious denomination.

The SCOTUS ruled in 2020 that employees could opt out of birth control. This was due in part because taking contraceptives is a personal choice that impacts only the consumer.

Furthermore, the decision only came to be because conservatives forced laws to be put in place that forces employers to pay for contraceptives through healthcare.

The choice of vaccination impacts their business and customers. Bottom line, if the employer has determined it's too high of a risk to their business to employ an unvaccinated staff it's within their rights to require staff to get vaccinated.

Same thing applies when they require certain licences must be obtained by employees to continue their employment.

@sariel Employment laws in the US are a joke (and have been before 2020) 😄

@PonySlaystation is that supposed to upset me? It's true.

But the legal standing is that it's lawful for employers to require staff to get vaccinated for continued employment.

I thought conservatives would want this, since they wanted to grant employers the power to fire employees that used contraceptives.

Just more examples of how weak conservatives are. Doesn't matter what country, all conservatives are weak-willed sperglords with a Jesus complex.

@sariel What's the hate about conservatives? I don't rember this topic being about conservatives.

As per your nasty comments:
You contribute to the segregation of political discourse. Do you really democrats are withoit any god complex?

@PonySlaystation personally I think both are fucking hypocritical assholes that keep our nation divided and steer away from all topics that we should be fixating on which has resulted in the warped generations that succeeded those that were more divided between depraived monster garbage and ordinary people born in the 80s. the actual 80s.

example: the economic arguments of the republicans which make anyone who works for a living hate them unless they're an inbred dullard, and the fixation of the liberals on special interests that could be solved by simply overhauling our economic system and not making people so fucking divided and sensitive because they feel they're still being painted as the bad guy.

both sides are self serving troublemakers that fuck our whole world up one bad vote at a time, and one half measure at a time which is how this bs we're dealing with emerged in the first place. someone figured out how to manipulate everyone who cares, and sing to those who don't

perfect point i don't know if he's a bot or actually sitting behind a keyboard typing the same shit but this is a prime example.

heh no wonder the average person in my age group so often described their mood as 'blah'. nothing seems to have any point anymore, because it doesn't. my country is full of self labotomizing morons who just drift along through the same motions and prevent anyone who actually gives a shit from solving anything, sabotaging good minds, and then blaming them for their failure because everything is just sooooo achievable and easy. and some people get the illusion fed to them so there are indeed positive examples, the rest are fucked.

and an addition this time.
to complete the shitty mechanism, the general method, modus operandi as you will, is to make those who think they got away with murder so paranoid they stir and repeat the same process.

@PonySlaystation last I checked American conservatives are the ones promoting misinformation about the vaccine.

If anyone is contributing to political segregation it's conservatives. Don't even try to blame it on liberal agendas because the only agenda is to provide a sustainable healthy future for Americans.

Last I checked conservatives were in power while the pandemic killed 500,000 Americans in less than 12 months.

And yeah, I hate the conservative party and what it has become. There is no longer any hope of rectifying the party, and it must be excised for the country to move forward. If your arm is gangrenous, do you not remove the arm?

Anyone willing to die for their party obviously doesn't understand what it means to be an American.

@YouAllSuck ohwait, it was you all along. You were green before.

@sariel 🤣

@iiii does this confuse them ? :P

@iiii https://youtu.be/-G4Y8JtT1j0?t=215

@iiii hey look and now the cat is white too :P was there a cat before ? :P i can do this all century :P

@YouAllSuck it did confuse me.

@iiii doesn’t the nonsensical blabber already give them away?

@iiii awwww poor bear. *pat pat*

@100110111 i did not notice that at first

how did we ever get anything done on dialup ?

@sariel
"you seem to be pretty upset about taking a simple shot to the arm"

you thick fuck.
come to my place so i can inject you with a mix of heroine and cocaine. let's see how pretty upset you'll be then about "taking a simple shot to the arm" you dumb fuck.

The word permafried is coming to mind right this second

@PonySlaystation

"Somehow the pro choicers' opinion is mostly accepted yet the forced-vaccination critics get universally demonized."

you at least get part of it, thank you.
hint: the difference is that pro-abortion is women's choice and women the perfectest ever can never do no wrong and have to be always allowed to do whatever because women. because that's how psychology of sexually dimorphic species works.

but... at least you see the hint of the absurdity. it gives me the hint of light on the end of the dumb tunnel.

The other word I’ll add this time is bull dyke

Speaking of semi new additions

@AleCx04
" I tend to stay away from these arguments because I dislike seeing how selfish people are. In some treads I see the common phrase "why should I have to be mindful of others?" "why should I care if others get sick" "

firstly, those example arguments are idiotic. i have never met any people doing those, and i hope i never will, because as soon as I do, it's gonna switch me into "nuke everything" mood.

secondly, you're neglecting to realize that the people who pressure others to get vaccinated for their own sake are just as selfish. it's as if i mandated for everyone to take heroine just for my sake of not having to try and explain to everyone what taking heroine feels like.

how can you not see that. "it's complicated for me to take care of my own health so you should take an injection full of some shit so i don't have to take so much time and energy taking care of my own health"

@sariel
"I do think that people should want to be vaccinated though. If not for themselves, then for their neighbors, or parents, or children."

refer to the fuckin graph please. neighbors, parents, and children are free to take the vaccine. if the vaccine works, they are then safe without me having to take that disgusting shit into my body, thank you very much.

if they are not safe after taking that disgusting shit into their bodies, that means the vaccine doesn't work, so why the hell should I take that disgusting shit into my body when it doesn't work anyway?

fuckin all in the OP graph already, you just have to have basic reading comprehension.

@iiii "@AleCx04 cleanse should happen..there are too many people overall."

i agree. how lucky that the vaccine morons are gonna start dropping like flies within 10 years, or at least find, all surprised, that for "unknown reasons" they're now infertile.

cool, one thing we can agree on.

@Hazarth
"The pandemic just removed the veil and shown individual people for who they really are.

But I too was more dissapointed with their behavior than I expected. Everytime I start thinking people are not that bad they start doing something dumb that makes me faceplant hard"

i wholly agree. i would have never thought there's still so many covert fascists in the world.

TNG - The Game

@c3r38r170
"There's people dying"

did you know: last year, and on average every year, there was as many people disappeared (kidnapped, probably, or murdered and never found), as there was supposed kung flu deaths?

process that.

@PonySlaystation
"a) Is it more important for the wellbeing of our society that we are "saved from the virus" by FORCING people to vaccinate? (destroying the right or choice)
OR
b) Can the virus be handled by making vaccination a thing of choice and informing people as good as possible about the risks and benefits?

How the fuck is it an inherently "good" thing to force people to vaccinate?"

exactly what i was saying when i mentioned the comparison to declining birth rates which are on the course to collapse society, and handmaid's tale kind of regime, which in that case, if a) is the proper choice, would mean that handmaid tale's system was good and warranted.

exactly what everyone ignored, because suddently when it's oh women in the game, oh no, we can't override free will because we'd be monsters.

of course everyone ignored that point.

@sariel
"If your body isn't an infection vector then everyone benefits, that's how we reach herd immunity."

or if you have gone through the disease so you've aquired immunity naturally, that's also how we reach herd immunity.

i choose to rather aquire immunity naturally, thank you very much.

@Midnight-shcode Yes, today I learned my country has 13-14 deaths by car accidents a day.
That doesn't change people against measures for reducing them are wrong, no matter what.
Fuck opinions. I'm a person of science and every person should be.

@iiii
"I'll also remind you that there are _mandatory_ vaccinations in every country. This one will be just a yet another one of those."

okay, after 10 years of testing, as all normal vaccines get as a minimum, i'm fine with that. i'm not fine with some shit getting rushed out in a year and immediately becoming mandatory before we even have any proper data on what the fuck it does.

@Hazarth
Lol ok

dude, you're really just comparing "controlling the rate of women giving birth" to "reee, I couldn't go on vacation for a year because old people were dying"

are you ok?

you dummy.
i'm comparing "your right to bodily autonomy is overriden by the interests of society" with "your right to bodily autonomy is overriden by the intersts of society"

how is that not clear? apples to apples, you trunk.

@PonySlaystation
"@iiii Good luck enjoying authoritarianism. Your mindset, as expressed in the later half of your comment, is the reason why authoritarianism will never die out."

yes, that's why i called him a fascist, because i'm tired of trying to be polite in the face of ...that kind of stuff.

@nonox
" It looks like nuance is rarely an acceptable way of thinking."

no, buddy, i actually meant it when i called him fascist. it was not just a synonym for "someone who disagrees with me"

i meant it as an actual thing, a proponent of a totalitarian dictatorship where everything including private life is mandated by the state to be in line with the interests of the state.

you know, like nazi, which is national socialism, which is socialism except not international, but limited by national borders, plus private property allowed, while it's used according to the state commands. that's fascism. and that's what i meant. not a curse word, but a descriptor of what he's obviously proposing.

@iiii
"I'll just remind you that the science of vaccines is a pretty well studied and scientifically proven branch of medical science."

i'll just remind you, that this is the first time any vaccine was done via the mRNA route, and it's immediately on a HUGE scale. vaccine via a new tech. while until now, even vaccines done via the old tech were usually tested small-scale and long-term for about a decade, even based ont he old proven tech, before being released into the global populus.

this is the first time that a new vaccine (untested) based on a new tech (untested) was immediately released into the global populus, and the adverse effects are already being significant enough that the manufacturers offer money for those adverse effects... UNDER THE CONDITION THAT IF YOU ACCEPT THE MONEY YOU CANT BE PART OF ANY OTHER MOTION ABOUT THE VACCINES CAUSING ADVERSE EFFECTS.

in short, they'll pay you to shut up that you lost your leg or life.
how does that seem ok to you?

@YouAllSuck
"everything is wonderful and great and I love big brother ! *cries*"

i think i love you. why is there no "friend" function on devrant? i'll probably forget in a few days that, and why, i love you :'(

@iiii
"People are mostly stupid small-minded animals, which rarely understand big picture problems even when the information is available"

but you are the genius exemption because you are a genius and an exemption, yes, we get it, you are better than all of us, better informed, better brained, better thinking, have invested more time into studying all the minutiae of the science as well as global politics and economics and socionomics about all of this, so you know best and everyone who disagrees is the untermench.

congratulations.

people like you are the problem. people who think they know the best and everyone else should just listen to them and submit.
i could start naming dictators now, who are the best example of this syndrome, but i think i made my point.

@YouAllSuck
https://youtu.be/wYxhOWDeLcI

i love you

@iiii
"cleanse the population. Bioreactors are waiting. ;)

PS: USA is beyond salvation and I would advise to let it burn. That will be the best for the whole world."

...
and you were offended about me calling you a fascist?
...why exactly?
My dear fuhrer, where do we fire up the furnaces this time? Sadly, Auschwitz is in europe which... still needs about 5 years to get to the level of big brain where you're now.

@iiii
"I'll also remind you how democracy works: the majority rules. If the majority decides you have to do something, you have to do that or be penalized or get the fuck out of the country. Not so much about freedom, eh?"

yeah but how would you know what majority thinks and wants to decide, when one side of opinions is systematically suppressed under the guise of "disinformation"?

@iiii
oh sorry, you don't give a shit, I'll just shut up and go continue heating up the furnaces, My Fuhrer

@c3r38r170
"Fuck opinions. I'm a person of science and every person should be."

i am too. which is why i utterly dislike the proper scientific process of testing being discarded while also a thing that hasn't gone through the proper process being forced on the whole world immediately.

@Midnight-shcode I love you too ! Oh sweet brother from one town over pretending to be from Germany why have we been apart for so long ?

@Midnight-shcode @YouAllSuck @PonySlaystation here's to your personal preferences. May they bring you comfort as you gasp for air.

@sariel and may the thorny barbed cock of satan do enough damage in entry to disrupt further nervous impulse on repeat brutal penetrations once you get to hell

@sariel ps wtf is up with the repeat DiCaprio pic ?

@Midnight-shcode I'll remind you that not all coronavirus vaccines are the "new" mRNA based ones. There are also "classic" ones which include inactive viruses or parts of them

@Midnight-shcode it's not the first medicine which is done with mRNA technology. But the first very widespread one.

@Midnight-shcode you clearly don't understand where there was a joke.

Also, you don't understand what fascism is. Not every dictatorship is fascism. And even then, I was not claiming any dictatorship as well. Educate yourself, idiot.

@Midnight-shcode you can’t seriously be comparing an mRNA vax to heroine… and I’ll stop there, because your argumentation is so… how to put it nicely… seriously fucked up, there’s just no point trying to converse with you.

Oh one thing, stop calling people who clearly have mouthed no fascist views as fascists! I have seen no single comment expressing views pro totalitarian dictatorship, and if you see some of the arguments used to disagree with your insanity as such, there’s something seriously wrong with your perspective. Gosh, it grinds my gears.

@Midnight-shcode

No you're not, you're trying to create a completely blown out strawman.

Ones freedom ends where anothers freedom starts. That means It's perfectly ok for you to not get the vaccine or get infected if you want. But once you're infected you're a vector of spreading to other people, those that don't wish to be infected. So if you want to live in a society and move around people you need to abide by rules that protect their freedom to not get infected too. It always has to boil down to the lowest safest requirement.

If you're not giving birth as a woman you're not putting anyone else in danger. The society as a whole might be in danger but not any one individual per se. But if you don't get vac'd but still want to go to a store, or job, you're putting everyone in that place in danger. That's against the law.

A much better analogy imo is "I don't mind getting stabbed in the gut, Im young and will survive, so I should have the autonomy to also stab others"

@PonySlaystation

> "instead of working on a good information policy on why vaccines work and why we need them?

I gave to blame politics on this one."

This, so much this ^^^^

I don't even mind people that don't want to take a vaccine for a good reason, but all I hear is the same disinformation arguments that the media spread in the first month. The same media that are known for not reading anything they quote/source... The articles are always incomplete or just wrong...

Really the biggest issue I think we're facing is that no one is investing the time to do a proper information campaign. Something covered by legitimate sources and explained so anyone can understand it without doing a 2 hour long research. That was the biggest dropped ball, that we left this to the media alone... The media did nothing but scare people from the start with outrageous hypothesis and conspiracies.

I've done it! I read every single comment! Took me a while. 🤪

@EthanSnowy congrats!

@Hazarth well said, all in all. However, I’ve got to say the problem mostly lies in the shit media some places got. Our Finnish language media has actually done a pretty stellar job on covid issues in general, including on the vaccines. Whatever conspiracy dum-dum some individuals do spout here on the comment sections for said articles seems to come from US shit media, and some people just believe what they want to believe. But yeah, overall, it seems like information policy has been lacking in many a country…

@molaram does the vax actually make a difference? That remains to be seen, and the only way to get any proof for or against is if enough people get vaxed (I’ve seen 70% somewhere?), if I have understood correctly how these things work.

On the other side of things, besides an immune response, what’s the hurt on getting vaxed? None, as far as we know. I understand it’s a little problematic and hesitancy inducing to ”rush” a vax to the general populus, but as I see it, what’s the alternative we have facing a pandemic? At least mRNAs have been tested, and we’re not dealing with the first ever mRNA vaccine here after all. It’s a bit of a grey area, where you just have to accept the fact we don’t know absolutely everything yet, but as far as studies go, we should be on the safe side with the mRNA vaccines. The more traditional vaccines have proved more problematic in this case…

I’ll leave the convo here, since I’m tired and don’t feel lile battling windmills with idiots, but my point really is: I don’t get anti-vax dum-dum. It is your personal choice whether to get vaxed or not, but I think there’s absolutely no reason for anyone to not get vaxed, and anyone who doesn’t is an incredibly selfish and dangerously individualist asshole.

Peace out, motherfuckers!

@100110111

Absolutely. If they media in any place does their job properly it shows on the statistics. Of course uninformed people are scared people, and scared people don't want to get vac'd because they don't understand it.

Finland is doing really well in terms of at least single-dose. You have 64.35% with at least one dose. Which is pretty much enough for a good herd immunity already.

though to be fair the US has 55.63%, so they are not doing *too* shabby compared to some other places.

unfortunately my media and politicians did a horrible job and we're sitting at 40.11%. We can probably expect another wave once it gets colder again -_-. I'm getting real tired of this.

@Midnight-shcode It's still better than nothing. It was a risk but we took it in order to prevent even more deaths.
We took the risk and now we see the vaccine works. It makes your body generate antibodies, and that helps you being a less violent vector when you get sick.
You won't be cured, you won't be immune, but you won't stick it to everyone.

@Midnight-shcode the pony likes me :)

@PonySlaystation the pony likes me :)

@Hazarth Since the delta variant is more contagious than the original (alpha) one, the vaccination threshold that would need to be reached is actually closer to 80%. At the beginning of this Wikipedia article : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... there's a graph that I found interesting, giving the correlation between how a virus is contagious and what immunity level is required. Had no idea that measles was so freaking high!

Geez... my family is like that.
If I ask them where they got this bullshit information from, they say: From friends or from someone who's a doctor.

Then I ask them where they (these strange people) got their info from or why they (my family) do not do researches themselves? They shut up.