The spokesman of an international corporate published a LinkedIn post about why people should work for this company.

Clause 1 was: "Here you get almost 3 monthly salaries as bonus. My wife loves it!"

Right, because he doesn't enjoy the money at all - the PR guy who sold his Ferrari, really. Just his greedy wife, spending his hard-earned money.
This sexist, 50's vibe approach to women is expressed publicly and formally by a spokesman of a corporate that claims to adopt values such as equality, diversity, etc. *facepalm*

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    I really don't pick up that sort of vibe from it. Maybe I'm missing some context?
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    @AlgoRythm Nah, you're just a guy and therefore less sensitive to these nuances.
    Replace "My wife loves it" with "My Jewish/black/Muslim/Asian employees love it" and you'll get the racist post of the year.
    If this was a private post of a private person, it might have been different - he is only sharing his personal experience.
    But as a representative of a global corporate, he advertises the company, its values and its lifestyle. Implying that men should work there so their wives can spent their bonuses is vile.
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    @NickyBones It's also customary, at least in my culture, to share accomplishments and successes with your SO, but it is not the same with employees of specific races. "My kids love it" would be the same thing, but less sexist?
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    @AlgoRythm "My kids love it" would be great.
    He is not sharing his accomplishments with his SO - otherwise he would say something like "I received a hefty bonus, and want to thank my wife for supporting me through a year of hard work". This is how you share success.
    Suggesting that your SO only enjoys the fruits of your success without being your partner throughout the entire journey is so backwards.
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    Why, displaying wealth is a surefire way to get a lot of female attention on dating sites. Problem is that it attracts gold diggers like shit draws flies. That's OK for pump & dump, but making something permanent out of that is downright moronic.
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    @Fast-Nop Displaying wealth attracts men alike. Some may be intimidated by a rich female partner, but will gladly kiss ass to have a rich male friend that would let them bath, even momentarily, in glory, spotlight and lavish lifestyle.
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    @NickyBones a wealthy woman will not marry down, a wealthy man may. Biology at work, and 200,000 years of evolution don't care about political correctness.
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    @Fast-Nop What you're saying has little connection to what I've mentioned. I said greed is not limited to one gender, and that men like to mingle with the rich and famous just as women do.

    As for your claim, you seem to forget that only in recent centuries women gained basic rights such as education or being able to inherit and own property. So naturally, given that women had no income or fortune, they could only marry men wealthier than they are. So this has nothing to do with biology, and everything to do with society and religion that prevented women from being independent and prosperous.

    To further contradict your claim, not only that women today marry below their socioeconomic status, they also pay child support/alimony in various countries if the financial state of their divorcee is lesser than theirs. Welcome to the 21st century.
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    @NickyBones I don't understand how "my kids love it" is great but "my wife loves it" is bad

    -it's just family members being happy for each other. It is the same sentiment either way. It's simply far more likely that a wife or husband would be happy for the financial success of their spouse than the children.
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    @NickyBones its just bad taste and oldschool. Lets not malr a big deal out of something that is obviously outdated.

    Also, there does seem the be a difference between men and women as very few women would sacrifice everything for work while few men would. And on average women tend to be happier when having a balanced family work life where as men can happily work more.

    And i don‘t say this just by echoing what i heard. I actually had feminist classes at uni and came out with an A-. My views changed since ive been living with my feminist wife (i took that class to hang out with her and she mad got she got B+ :)) for the last few years who is a less feminist and so am i.
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    @AlgoRythm It's better because kids are not expected (at least in most developed countries) to carry the burden of managing a household. They are supposed to enjoy the benefits.
    Saying that your SO loves that you're earning money suggests that she/he are shallow, greedy and mighty not love you if you stop earning it.
    If you can't see how the phrasing is problematic (And I've given a few examples of how to do so in a more respectful way towards your SO), then I can only hope your SO would not be offended when you make such comments. Seeing most upvotes I got are from female devs, it is definitely a sensitive subject.
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    @AlgoRythm its different in the sense that one is a remenant of a patriarchal society and the other one is neutral. If you take a history of social studies you would understand that. Imo you are playing blind or your actually not using your brain to understand @NickyBones point of view.
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    @NickyBones i hate to contradict you by the way. You had a lot of fake facts used against you in this thread and i support most of what your saying and inwould understand your fustration with some of the arguments given against what you said -_-.
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    @Santaclauze It's not a big deal when my 60-year-old neighbor says it. It's a big deal when a spokesman for a so-called value-promoting corporate advertises it to gazillion followers.

    This average you're talking about is slowly changing. I see my male colleagues at work that insist on work-life balance. They feel depressed and guilty when they don't get to spend time with their kids. And it's super normal and sensible because it's their kids too.
    On the other hand, you see that the average age for marriage and having kids is raising, for women as well. More women choose to peruse careers, some even give up on having children.
    All through history women were expected to play certain roles. So it's hard to tell if they are happier to fulfill them or just taught to think they are happy. Times will tell.
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    @xzvf Suppose you startup a company with a
    friend. And you say something like "I worked hard and earned lots of many selling the startup. My friend X loves the money."
    This implies that only X enjoys the money, and you are pure, non-materialistic monk, and he is a shallow and greedy person. Second, it excludes him from the group effort.
    This is what this spokesman did to his wife, and if you think it's a respectful way to portray her, then I cannot convince you otherwise.

    If you can't handle a polite discussion, grow the fuck up.
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    @NickyBones 11 people is a rather small pool to draw data from.

    While I see the implications quite clearly, I disagree that is the true meaning behind their words in any fashion.

    Analyzing anything in such detail could produce similar results. Having a wife instead of a husband could be homophobic. But it isn't. Similarly, suggesting that his wife is happy with the bonuses his job grants him isn't sexist.
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    @NickyBones Your interpretation makes it sexist, but his statement is not per se sexist.

    It is a matter of interpretation, which is, as we all know, always biased, thus subjective.

    @xzvf has valid points and I firmly stand behind his statement that it is depending on your cultural background.
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    I agree with @PonySlaystation.
    "My wife love it" could mean a lot of things, like "I make 150k$ a year, which allow me to pay for my wife and my kids to go around the world".

    Or maybe "I earn enough money to allow my wife to choose the work she really wants, and not the work she needs to pay our bills".

    I see nothing sexist in this, because you could easily swap the places ("my husband loves it") and it would still makes sense.. Or it would still be sexist under your eyes?
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    @AlgoRythm A rather small pool here - and from that small pool, I still can see that most of them are women despite having a relatively low amount of female devs. Please notice that the only ones here telling I'm "too sensitive" and "over-analyzing" are men - how surprising....
    A not so small pool in the real world, which you are not aware because well, I'd wager you don't read in Hebrew and take part in the same groups that I do.

    @PonySlaystaion As a Jew, I have heard so many nasty statements and their makers hiding behind the "you only interpret it as racist/antisemitic". With your argument, you just joined a very unflattering group of people.
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    @taglia When I start seeing women flaunting their money and proudly announcing they are financing their husbands, it would stop being sexist. But this is entirely not the situation, is it? Because women don't have basic rights in many places in the world, in many cultures it is considered great shame to have a women earning more than you, women still face discrimination and are underpaid.
    You guys are trying so hard to bury your head in the sand and not face reality - I'd expect more from men that represent some sort of intellectual elite.
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    @NickyBones so, a man that proudly says that he is financing his wife is sexist, but a women saying the same thing isn't?
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    @NickyBones That was an extremely vague comparison.
    I don't know where your general disgust against men comes from but surely something must have influenced you.

    Do you want to escape the argument by putting me into this "group of unflattering people"?
    Why pull the "Jew = victim" card?

    I have loved and been together with a jewish woman for a handful of years and always respected the culture and the history.

    "I'd expect more from men that represent some sort of intelectual elite."
    But you do relize that average IQ and distribution are pretty much the same in both sexes?
    Your heavily biased attitude towards men does not show a lot of open-mindedness nor willingness to an open and fair discussion. May I suggest you to try to go out and actually get to know the world as it is? You mentioned "I'd wager you don't [...] take part in the same groups as I do.", which kind of tells me you are pretty heavily influenced by those groups.
    Maybe it's time to associate with others too.
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    @NickyBones Well, perhaps we cannot have a discussion about this, since our experiences are so vastly different.

    But, I should let you know, I work in an area with a lot of rich people. Women flaunt their wealth and have golddigger husband's too. Quite often. Real estate agents and doctors being among the most common profession for financially successful women.

    Perhaps you would enjoy living here
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    @NickyBones In Western countries, women aren't underpaid because there is no gender paygap. You don't get the same work cheaper from a woman, or else men would get fired because women-only companies would outprice mixed or male companies. That's economy 101.

    What is there, statistically, is different choices for professions. Women often choose jobs that aren't paid as well and do more part time. But that's their freedom of choice, and part of the parcel is accepting the consequences of one's decisions instead of playing the victim card.
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    @Fast-Nop correct.

    Additionally: "Statistics" which showed a big "gender pay gap" did not consider the fact that women tend to work less hours (by choice), thus making less money.

    As previously said: By law it is illegal to pay a person less JUST because of its sex.
  • 0
    @taglia Are you being deft on purpose?
    If both men and women would use these phrases, then it would lose its sexist edge. I still think it would be a crappy thing to say, that my husband loves the money I earn (I would say we both enjoy the money we both earn).
    But if those statements would not be based on stereotypes relating to sex (the definition of sexist) - such as men earn money and women spend it, then it would stop being sexist. It would just be rude.
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    @PonySlaystation I get out plenty, thank you. You ignored [...] the most important part of my quote. That is, Hebrew speaking groups, where people (some women, but mostly men because this is the ratio here) working in the IT industry in my area discuss things - from happy hours to how to ask for a raise. You are making really mean and stupid assumptions about my character, that has 0 grasp on reality, and it says more about you than it does about me.

    I don't know how you got the impression I was suggesting anything about female intellect. All I said is that you guys, as devs, represent people of higher intellect relative to other people who are less educated, have no access to technology, etc. Again, you reach ridiculous conclusions based on who you imagine me to be, regardless of what I actually write.
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    @Fast-Nop @PonySlaystation
    I'm not talking about a pay-gap between a neurosurgeon and a bloody part-time babysitter.
    I'm talking about pay-gap within the same roles, of people that work full-time, with about the same experience and background (obviously people are not identical).
    There were statistics gathered in my country, in the IT industry, divided into very specific professions (executives, algorithms, embedded, project managers, web, cyber security, QA, etc.), binned by years of experience. All salaries normalized for full-time. On 80% of the cases men earned more.
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    @Fast-Nop @PonySlaystation
    As for economy 101. Those who hire (TL) tend to choose those who are similar to them. Males would prefer males, Asian tend to hire Asian, Indians - hire Indians. That's human nature and it's backed up by research. An industry who mostly consists of men, are more likely to hire men.
    Those who hire all mostly, not the owners, and they prefer their comfort and "harmony" above pure economical reasoning. Since team leaders don't pay the paycheck out of their pockets, your economy 101 argument is irrelevant.
    People of different sexes can definitely earn different salaries for the exact same work - a waitress is tipped way more than a waiter does.
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    As for women working less hours - yeah, that definitely happens. The problem is, that employers assume that since I'm a woman I will automatically work less, and cut that out of my salary in advance. Even If I don't have kids, husband, gold-fish or a life outside of work at all. This "Motherhood" penalty affects every woman, even if she is not a mother, and then I can work the same hours as a male colleague and certainly earn less.
    As for that being illegal - true, but it's also impossible to prove, and this is way people think they will get away with discrimination. You can always make up a reason for why X is better than Y (and thus gets paid more), for a job like ours, that requires several different skills.
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    @AlgoRythm Gold-diggers come in all shapes, sizes and genders. It was some other guy here who said only women were gold-diggers, and never marry below their status.
    I don't particularly like rich people either, so I'll pass on any Beverly-Hills like neighborhood. Rather die from boredom in distal district of a subarb of some shithole in the outskirt of Detroit. They have axe-throwing facilities at least.
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    @NickyBones I live in a middle class area of Florida but work at the Mercedes nearby. I live here because I'm quite fond of the weather and nature.

    Anyways, my first thought was to ask if I had missed any context. You assured me I had not, but clearly, you had left some context out. This is very easily a sexist statement in the situation you (belatedly) described. In your original statement, you claimed that this statement on it's own is sexist, to which I disagree.
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    @AlgoRythm Well, I didn't think about the middle-east as a context :)
    But yes, if I translate context as circumstances, or even reality, then you're correct. There are definitely geo-cultural factors at play.
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    @NickyBones Setting is surely a context :b
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    @NickyBones these paygap statistics are simply wrong. You can't "adjust for full time" because you simply will not be promoted at all if you're working part time. That has nothing to do with gender.

    Also, the years of experience when excluding parental leave aren't the same. Again, nothing with gender because women could easily marry down so that it would make sense to leave the husband at home. That would shorten the break to something like 3 months needed for physical recovery.

    If you take everything out, there is no paygap. And you can bet that the shareholders would simply enforce hiring of women, if necessary by firing the whole HR department and replacing them by women.

    In Western countries, women have everything, and even better than that. Feminism in Western countries is about unearned advantage these days. That's why the complaining will never end.
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    @NickyBones and then we have the deadly work accidents which hit mostly men because there is absolutely no drive for gender equality in hard and dangerous jobs like construction working, welding and so on.
    Or homelessness which hits mostly men, and nobody demands to fire more women out of their appartments until there is gender equality among the homeless.
    Or casualties in fighting army units at the front.

    But hey, it's just men, so who would care.
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    @NickyBones On the other hand, I'm totally with you that there are considerable parts of the world where human rights in general and women's rights specifically are underdeveloped or even lacking at all.
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    @Fast-Nop Dude, you are very certain about everything based on ...nothing. Of course you can normalize job percentages - a women earning 4K for working a 80% job, is considered like a guy working full-time and earning 5K.
    Maternity leaves are usually about 3 months or so here, and assuming mothers have an average of 2.7 babies, then you can take off one year of the total work experience they have - still does not justify any gap.
    Also, nothing to do with promotions. They measured developers against developers, not developers against team leaders or executives. You are inventing your own statistics to build your own theories.
    Paygap is very real, in the western world as well, because as long as there are religions that see women as less than men, or any other stupid traditions, women will be looked down upon and valued less.
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    @Fast-Nop All the other bad things that happen to men have 0 relevancy to the discussion. You are trying to justify one wrong by another wrong, which is a classical logical failure.
    Women are raped more, murdered for the "family honor" more, victim of child marriage more often and sex traffic. So what? It has nothing to do with this paygap discussion as well.
    All the wrongs you mentioned, are the result of a social structure based on male dominance. Men die in war that men wage, and where I'm from also women. I served in the army, I was like meters from landing sites of mortars and rockets so don't tell me about fucking wars.
    So yes, this stupid patriarchal structure hurts men too, a lot of them, but you certain have no one but other men to blame for it. Go ahead and fix it, it will do good to everyone.
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    @NickyBones your worldview is so deeply sexist and anti-male that it can only qualify as hate speech.

    I got news for you. Want to earn like a man? Then get your fucking ass up like a man and stop whining around. It's that easy.
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    @Fast-Nop Sounds like you have no arguments. I do more work than anyone in my team, while managing open source projects and studying for my masters.
    I don't need to do anything like a man, I just need to do it the best I fucking can. And if you think that the best way possible is "like a man" then your perspective is the one that is heavily skewed.
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    @NickyBones I do, and your statistics are bollocks. Another item is btw. that statistically, men change jobs more often than women. You probably won't get 20-30% raise in your current company, but with switching jobs, that's entirely possible. You feel underpaid? Start job applications elsewhere. That's what a man would do, statistically. You don't want to do what it takes to earn more? Then stop complaining and take responsibility for your actions or non-actions.

    Wanna be an important OSS project leader? Start a project. All important projects started as insignificant stuff with a lot of grunt work. Do that, and be prepared for failure because most projects don't become big and prominent.

    Professional grieve mongering, on the other hand, doesn't change shit.
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    @Fast-Nop Do you even read? I started my own OS project. I switched 3 jobs in 5 years, to improve my conditions. While I have lots of complaints about how the world works, I certainly do more than sit on my lazy ass and whine about.
    I don't defend all the people that do the bare minimum and get, well, the bare minimum. I am angry because I do 150% and still get 80%.
    And yeah, some of it is still my fault. If you actually did your research, you would know that women are afraid to bargain and would usually just accept what they are offered. And I did the same bloody mistake and I'm mad at myself for that.
    But still, this does not change the fact that the initial (!) offer given to a colleague that admitted to be less experienced than me, was 20% higher. Same company, same job.
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    @NickyBones if they are afraid to bargain and don't negotiate, that's their problem. They should start to change that because salary negotiation is a job skill. Again, no sexism, but actions and consequences. You see, equal treatment isn't just a bunch of roses.

    Oh, and just doing good work in itself does NOT result in a raise. News here, neither for a man. You also have to ensure some visibility because if boss doesn't notice that you are a top performer, then raise negotiations will fail.

    In my career, I had to fight off assholes who tried to pass my work for their credit. No sexism, but assholery. Having a penis myself didn't help, but fighting back did.
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    @Fast-Nop That's all true but you are avoiding the real issue again - the initial offer for women is lower, when both candidates have the same skills, applying for the same job.
    You don't see how this is problematic?

    Even if I bargain hard, and he bargains a little, starting at 0.8 of his initial offer, I won't earn the same as he.

    As for visibility, I was denied credit for so many projects that I stopped counting. I told them, let's see the git commits - I'm the only contributor. Ask me and the one who claims to "mentor" me about how this software works - see that he knows shit. Guess what, he still got the credit. There is no winning in companies that are managed like a boys club.
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    @NickyBones the initial offering is low for ANYONE who doesn't show enough self esteem. Getting credit snatched away by people who have more influence and/or charisma happens to ANYONE.

    It's you who makes sexism out of that because your world view seems to be centred around vaginas and penisses - and that means it's deeply sexist.

    Unless you live in a shithole where human rights aren't observed anyway, you do have all the opportunities you need. But instead of hiding behind your vagina, you still have to grab them and try to turn them into success, that has at least a chance of working. However, it isn't guaranteed because the universe doesn't owe anybody anything.
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    @Fast-Nop I don't know what world you live in - it's sounds so utopical that I wish I lived in it too.
    In the reality I live in, the world mostly revolves around penises and vaginas.

    When people say they will never vote for a woman as president. When people say that women should focus on family instead of career. When professors say to female students that electrical engineering is not for girls, and they should choose something easier - my calculus lecturer in uni said that to me in front of the entire class.

    This is my world, where I am still perceived as a womb before I am seen a person.
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    @NickyBones I live in Germany where we have a female chancellor. The UK had Thatcher already in the 80s. My studies were in the 90s, and there were only a few girls in EE, much fewer than in medicine, but that's freedom of choice. EE was quite challenging for everyone, but as long as the girls performed, they studied like everyone else.

    Btw, I had a male manager who not only tried to snatch credit away, but even passed down blame for his stupid decisions. My predecessor (also male) talked back and was right, but that got him fired. When I inherited his project, it didn't take long before that manager pissed me off personally enough. It wasn't that easy, but after 3 months and another mostly failed project, he wasn't manager anymore and found himself on an irrelevant post. That shit happens and isn't sexist - but if my predecessor had been a woman, I bet you'd see sexism in action. Oh, and the head of engineering who finally demoted him was a woman.
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    @Fast-Nop You live in a place where there is a real attempt at equality. But western Europe is an island of sanity in a sea of violent, religious, male-dominated nightmare. In most areas of Asia and Africa, women are still treated poorly.

    I live in the middle east, where in some countries women are still not allowed to drive, choose their husbands or study/work. In my own country, women are attacked for not dressing modestly enough. There are streets (near holy places) where women are not allowed to pass. And we are considered "liberal" and "progressive" compared to our neighbors...
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    @NickyBones yeah, these are the regions I meant where also human rights don't really count. Incidentally, most regions where women are treated as wombs have a massive overpopulation problem (d'uh). Either humanity stops this shit, or we're in for population control via famine, war and epidemics. 7.6 billion and counting, and still, religious lunatics preach even more children. That madness has the potential to destroy us all.
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