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@antoniomerlin what even is MVP? Model View... Protocol?
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@gronostaj I know!
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@antoniomerlin I guess they've used it for so long and were unwilling to move on that it was a deal breaker for the candidates not to choose it as their primary as well!
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@inukinator Model View Projection :D oh wrong field I guess.
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What a douchecanoe.
I'd thank him for wasting my time and lowering my intelligence by talking.
Also, what's with all the "sir"s? 😕 I really hate it when people use formalities/honorifics as insults. Sign of a low quality person.
@magicMirror is right: this person had no intention of liking you. @gronostaj is also right. I would never want to see this person again, especially not regularly. -
@inukinator model view presenter
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@magicMirror hmm... Good point. I'll keep an eye out for them in the future
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@Root douchecanoe 😂
Honestly I'm a little relieved too. What makes me a little mad is that I had to drive for four hours to their office just to have my time wasted! -
@115105109 four hours!
WTF?
did *you* have any intention of working there?
But next time... "MVP? thats old news! I prefer to use the new WYSIWYG approach to solve the whole PEBKAC interface issue, along with RX as the decoupling mechanisem. What do you thing about new and interesting novel approach?" -
Sniff, sniff.. yes, guess what that is? That's me smelling something fishy. I think that this interview was about your approach towards dealing with completely unfair shit such as his crappy attitude.
You're the ideal candidate, seeing you tick all the boxes and not only can you say you know the technologies, you've worked with them.
No, this was not a technical interview, it was a psycho interview..
As an addendum I'd like to mention that over all the hundreds of job applications I have done, there is one constant: they value your attitude/personality way more than technical skills, but this is of course not true for every place. I once got immediately selected as the top candidate because I ticked all the tech boxes.. but guess what.. the day after, after I took the Myers/Briggs test -> immediate dismissal. -
MVC, MVP, MVVM... it's all misguided shit to be honest.
Oh yes, let's throw the SignupController together with the PaymentController, because their true defining property is that they're... controllers?
It's much important to organize your code by topic.
Not saying you immediately have to whip out some giant piece of DDD meat, massage some special CQRS-sauce all over it, or get drenched in pub/sub pipelines and Netflix-style microservice-insanity...
...just that worshipping organization of code by architectural similarity instead of by business domain is the biggest mistake of the last 20 years, and that any engineer who views it as some sacred holy pattern rather than a tool for temporary convenience is running blindly into a brick wall once the company requires them to scale the application. -
@magicMirror I need to memorize this!
Actually 2. I made a mistake. But still 4 if you count the drive back! I'm gonna be renting a place nearby to the next place I'll work at. -
@magicMirror
But I treat all my interviews as this by default.
Have I been doing it wrong the whole time? -
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@CaptainRant huh, that's a really good point. Although from what I gathered he was not assessing my psychology since he looked a lot like an engineer who'd get upset when challenged on his believes, but that's a real thing that I have to look out for. Thanks for pointing that out.
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@bittersweet honestly I'm not advanced enough yet to really determine which architecture works best where, but I completely agree with you.
If you're making a flashlight app, writing it in MVVM is unnecessary waste of time, and making the Netflix app in MVC will bring about a whole mess of crap down the road. You have to understand what you want, and be flexible on what you need, not just follow the buzz! -
@CaptainRant Really? An MBTI test in an interview? What was your result, and why was it bad? 🙄
Those tests (and all psyche tests) are so incredibly easy to manipulate. I've even passed the dark triad test with flying colors 😊 (I usually get 98% machiavellian, ~20% psychopathy) -
@Root I did horribly my first time around because I answered everything honestly (I like to work on my own, I prioritize my own work above others, I don't care about others, etc), which gave me a 100% psychopath score. That's bad.
It doesn't help that I get 98% high functioning autism and 90%+ in most of those tests. What can I say, I'm a logical thinker. I don't think like the common man, I think like Aristotle and Socrates. -
@CaptainRant That's dark triad, not MBTI.
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@Root I've taken all sorts of tests, among which ones were similar to that.
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@CaptainRant @Root
The ridiculous part is that MBTI (which barely escapes the pseudoscience label) was never meant as a pass/fail test.
You can't be good or bad at it, and it's proven to be a poor predictor of performance.
The idea of the test is to determine how to coach employees and make complementary teams — you don't fill a team with ENTP "inventors" because nothing will be built, and you don't fill a team with ISTP "crafters" because there will be no cohesive design or plan.
At best, it's a tool to coach or even shuffle teams, but it really shouldn't be used in hiring. -
@bittersweet I know what the MBTI is, and how the various personalities work and mesh.
I was asking how his result could be a failure. -
@Root
because they misuse the test.
The people administrating it failed, not the test taker.
The failed to recognize their own incompetence. -
@Root My result was a failure, presumably for the reasons he just explained. Though, I think it was a failure because the jobs in question were heavily support- and therefore human-related. The jobs were tech helpdesk and call center operator. The test results indicated I was heavily antisocial.
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@CaptainRant Fair.
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@CaptainRant That is exactly my issue with hiring based on MBTI.
It doesn't show you're "heavily antisocial" -- just that your form of social is different than that of others. You're made to believe you're antisocial, by people who don't share your brand of social.
Some people love dancing on the bar of a club full of sweaty strangers, others prefer to play a game of chess with a close friend in a private corner of a cafe.
In my opinion, if you have a helpdesk commune full of close-knit ISFJ/ESFJs, you should definitely throw a rational INTP in their midst.
One ESFJ in a team can be a compassionate decisionmaker, hordes of unchecked ESFJ's is a good way to grow a company full of scheming toxic little chest-bashing gorillas and a helpdesk with a low satisfaction score. 🤷
And again, MBTI is quite heavily criticized for lacking scientific merit anyway. -
@bittersweet It still seems to work quite well.
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@Root
It can work quite well for coaches as an indicator, not for managers/HR as a predictor.
I'm also not a fan of the diehard cult around it, with shit like workshops for "Master Practitioners" to become "Step III certified"... a lot of managers are too serious about it, they are way too susceptible to this scientology-style "pay $5000 and you ascend to rank 6" stuff. -
@bittersweet 😅 Neither.
I've gotten very good at identifying people's types, but all of that "next level" stuff is totally ridiculous -
@kurtr uhm actually it also means "Model View Presenter" and is another architecture. And a famous one if you're familiar with Android's world
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Mate, let me point out one more possibility that you have potential avoided
Say you got the job and on your first day you check out the project and realise the following:
- it's written 100% in Java
- is uses AsyncTask all over the place
- it uses GreenDAO as ORM
- no architecture patterns whatsoever and network calls sit in Activities (wrapped into an AsyncTask)
- app's locked into Portrait as they couldn't handle rotation without crashing the app
- minSDK is still 16 because they have at least 7 users with such an old devices
- there are 5 tests and 2 of them constantly fail
The interview was geared towards what they would like to have not what you'll end up using. You are a great candidate and I'd hire you in a heartbeat👌 -
@LordPeeve I've started working for a company that literally checks all the boxes you proposed, except for AsyncTask. Fuck AsyncTask. I would rewrite it in rx just not to see it.
I realize what you're saying and if they want to expand on one specific project with those aspects, it makes sense.
But if they want to create new high quality apps then it's more logical to use newer and better stuff, and they don't want to, they shouldn't waste people's time interviewing them, and instead should mention their actual requirements!
And thank you. And I have to ask now,, is your company hiring? -
@zubin10 Apparently it is, there.
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@zubin10 whenever it seems like I've not done a good job at the interview, I ask that question and I usually get useful comments and tips.
Once an interviewer explained to me why I'm not a senior yet and what I lack for ~25 minutes!
Here's a recent interview I had for an Android Developer job:
I: Interviewer, M: Me
I: hello, welcome
M: hi, thanks
I: do you know Kotlin?
M: yes, I've been working with it for 1.5 years and have written 3 projects in it
I: do you know RxJava, Dagger, Retrofit, and how to make Custom Views?
M: yes, I'm comfortable with them *explains*
I: do you know Room?
M: yes I do, I've done a lot of practices in it, but unfortunately have never needed to use it in production
I: what architecture do you use? Do you know MVP?
M: I'm currently using MVVM, but not MVP. I've debugged projects in it so I know what's going on in it
I: ok, do you have any questions for us?
M: how did I do?
I: I'm sorry sir, but you're not even a junior here
M: what? Why is that?
I: well you don't know Room and MVP?
M: I said I know them, just haven't used them in production.
I: well you have 3 years of experience but you dont even know Kotlin!
M: Kotlin was your first question and I said I have 3 projects in it. Did you even check the samples you asked for in the job posting?
I: SIR YOU'RE NOT A GOOD FIT FOR US, THANK YOU FOR COMING.
:/
rant