30
heyheni
10d

who works in the US on a H-1B visa here? Time to pack your things and move back home ☹️

Comments
  • 22
    It's not even 8am and I've had enough internet for today.
  • 9
    Ah yes, Canada/Australia/EU/New Zealand time
  • 13
    What the fucking fuck? What's wrong with this moron? And how the fuck could people vote for this guy? And ffs why is he still president?
  • 21
    I mean, as much as I dislike Trump, something like this needs to happen. Broken clocks are right twice a day. Unfortunately, it's toothless.

    The program is largely just gamed by Indian IT bodyshops who use it to ship low skill bodies over here to perform "specialty occupations". 96% of the visas are for software. 70% of the recipients are from india because they flood the request pool.

    It's rife with fraud (fake degrees, proxy interviewing, etc) and abuse (apply for green card with no intent to immigrate, charging h1b holders bribes to get the job, body shops hiring onto clients and only hiring their own), and a good portion of those who come here attempt to find a firm that will sponsor them for a green card so they can extend the visa indefinitely at a lower than scale salary with no raises. It sucks for them because the living conditions aren't great, but most bugger off back home when they have to, or when they hit their target. Over time, stagnant salary in the localized market has a net impact of artificially lowering wages because it brings the average down.

    Aside from the salary abuses, the green card rolls are now so deep for India it's 24 years best case, 70+ years worst case for them to actually get citizenship.

    Middle managers and bean counters like this because it allows them to put liability onto another firm, and hedge their viability while achieving line item savings. Law firms run classes that actually teach HR depts how to preferentially hire H1bs legally (https://youtu.be/TCbFEgFajGU).

    Most of their spouses also get H4s, which means they can work here legally. A large percentage of those are in the same field, so you can assume a factor of 1.4 over the number of H1bs issued are also working in tech jobs. It's estimated that there are as many as 1.3M h1b holders working in the US, or 24% of the population of Norway.

    It's kind of my axe to grind. I'm all for immigration, but I'd prefer it to be immigration and not just corporate profiteering.
  • 8
    As an American I see no issue with this... as a business owner sure low wage cheap labor from hireing foreigners on visa ...sure hurts the pocket books but I’ll take the sacrifice to hire Americans so yup keep it up
  • 7
    I also kinda view this as a plus one it weeds out the people who are just trying to make a living working for some green card sponsorship firm from the people with the passion for the industry, who know what they are doing and see the mountain of possibilities thru the trees. For them if they also are affected by not being able to live the American dream sad but that is fine.... actually good because what should occur is that person should go back... pursue the dream in their country out of spite... grow their community to large numbers of programmers and engineers... create good products... compete! Do it... competition is healthier for this industry as it will cause both countries to or any countries involved to advance and further their technology....

    We learned this with the Cold War ... competition between Russia and US... the competition brought lots of tech advances funded by the government of said countries... entire industries and sub industries formed from it...

    Sure it’s sad in the short run and some things change... but long term its always better to cause divide to create competition to better both groups
  • 1
    @QuanticoCEO yeah but the difference between now and the cold war era is that US schools are underfunded and straight out suck.
    US College level is highschool level most everywhere else in the world.
    So for many high paying jobs americans are simply not qualified and the know how has to come from somewhere.
    And nullifing granted visas and destroying careers is really evil and helps none.
  • 3
    @heyheni yes I am fully aware of the education issue here in the us ... no better way than this to expose the issue even more... basically enhance it th eproblem larger... sure that sucks for a short time... but when’s problem exists specifically a problem at large that affects businesses a solution will be made...

    Talent outside being Stopped.... businesses must only use domestic talent... realize domestic talent meeting industry needs is lacking..... businesses fuel the solution to the education problem or lobby to fix it...

    As u can see every action has a reaction... if we continue to allow them to come in.. there is no incentive to fix the problem here... make sense? It seems counter productive but that’s how the world works.
  • 3
    @QuanticoCEO a better fix would be reforming the education system tbh. This is just unnecessary. The competition you're talking about is there - it's from folks who go to the US for jobs. That hasn't spurred Americans into attending college at all, despite the massive job market and opportunities in tech. The visa even specifies that the company must prove that it can't get Americans who'd also fill that job - not that it stops the Indian bodyshops as @SortOfTested rightly points out, but if you're an American from a decent uni entering the tech sector, finding a decent job is relatively quite simple.

    Besides, American attendance in colleges is garbage and there are shortages of workers. That gap's not a demand problem - it's a supply problem. By increasing demand you're not doing much if supply can't keep up, you'll just lose out on potential economic growth.

    tl;dr it might be trying to do the right thing, but in the wrong way, or at least in an ineffectual way.

    Do US immigration laws need fixing? Hell yes, but a ban/freeze isn't a fix.

    I haven't seen anybody talk about fixing the US education and/or social system which is demonstrably rubbish compared to other developed countries, which leads me to conclude that this is just more manoeuvring and not an actual attempt to solve the problem.
  • 3
    @RememberMe in the US because we are so dumb and dont look past our noses until the problem hits us in the face.. and because everything is ran by business... the only way to fix education is to cause it to have direct economic impact.. thus the incentive is and need is apparent for the bean counters and idiot politicians... if we try to just fix the education problem before the economic impact we will do nothing but make it worse... that I can promise... why because politicians will come up with the solution which is always shitty and always just a bandaid and never fixes shit...

    Cause the economic issue to hit the pockets of private business... then the private business has incentive to get involved and fix it. Some things just have to be done the ‘hard way’

    Also as far as college rates and schooling ... that’s a cultural problem in part because too many kids grow up aspiring to be some sports player and spend all their time and focus trying to improve their skill to go pro when in fact the odds are not in their favor. Same with this huge culture of wasting time playing video games... why where does that get you... the required skill to make money at video games by just playing them is again not in your odds... I hate talking to kids and asking them what they want to be when they grow up and they say some video game or sports player ... it’s like wtf... go back ... revert.. we failed as a culture ... kids aspiring for the wrong things...

    They should be aspiring to be an engineer of any sort.. the garenteed way to go pro... job for everyone...

    The other problem is we put to much focus on college.. trade school is the way to go... I’ve said it before so many times I’ll hire a programmer with no degree that can prove skills and ability to learn and adapt over hireing anyone with a degree... the degree has become just static noise ... everyone’s got one so what makes you different. Also the system sucks at teaching
  • 6
    @heyheni
    I don't really think I agree with two assertions:

    1. US college is high school elsewhere
    2. The people here on visas deserve to be

    The first, we have a ton of universities, so yes, some of the are crap. The countries I conduct business in pad out 40 of the top 50 schools in the world, so I think maybe we have different metrics. From what I've seen of the UK, most of their university is trade school, with a few notable exceptions. I am also willing to accept I might be biased given my school was exceptional. I am also aware we have 16-20% STEM unemployment, not due to unsatisfactory skills, but to cost comparison and the fact that many foreign students will have a masters from the same schools (foreign students tuition is something American universities can't resist) in the time a US student can realistically finish an undergrad, and in many cases little to no debt.

    Us high school education is a trash fire, agreed. I blame the Christian's and the anti-meritocrats squarely for that.

    I worked with around 300 people on H1bs at the last client I was embedded with. None of them deserved to be here skills wise (even basic computer science was beyond them, I question whether some of them had degrees), half of them were acting as managers (not allowed on h1 visas), and that seems to be the standard everywhere except the high end bay area. A one by one approach doesn't really work because they all look qualified, on paper, which suggests to me the qualification mechanism is fundamentally broken and should be discredited.

    The last bit I think can be inferred: the theory that we need college. I don't care for Elon musk, but it's clear to me that the world wants trade school education more than academic rigor. I don't know how I feel about that, but if we're dividing up trade labor, we can teach most all engineering skills for practical application in them. The 65k USD university undergrad is equal parts unnecessary and a massive barrier to entry.
  • 5
    @SortOfTested I think more people need to hear this. Although, correction since trump took office he signed an executive order and H4s are not allowed to work any more.

    This is really tough though, I know people on H1Bs. Are their visas really going to be cancelled? Are people going to be deported? I thought it was just new visas aren’t going to be issued.

    Even though a lot of people game the system, a ton of people don’t. I don’t want to repel talent out of this country. That’s bargaining for other countries to pull ahead of the USA economically.
  • 1
    @QuanticoCEO there’s a balance to be struck here. We need to import talent to scale up as an economic powerhouse, but the system will be gamed if possible. So the question becomes how can you manage that and what is considered acceptable
  • 3
    @FrodoSwaggins
    Courts overruled the H4 ban. I work with 3 of them.
  • 1
  • 3
    I see the Silver Lining and everything. Many of these people are now going to return home with real experience. Which means it's going to give them an advantage in their own Nations. And it's going to help developed the tech sectors of the countries they returned to. This CAN be a good thing. But its still a lot of peoppe to tell to pack their bags.
  • 3
    @Wisecrack EXACTLY!

    Essentially creating a new era Tech Race.
  • 1
    .... The US really is a fucked up backwater, a) for this to even be possible, b) for this here to raise such a conversation (which honestly I didn't even read through, cuz don't have the appropriate time now, but will come back to later), c) for overcomplicating immigration etc. Only in the US you get a massive issue about such things. I've never obvs lived in the states, but every day I wonder more why would anyone want to? It doesn't make sense...
  • 2
    @miksaraj
    A lot of us don't. Emigration isn't easy. So you end up juggling trying to get out with trying to ensure you can get by if that's not an option.
  • 3
    @SortOfTested I get that. Emigration/immigration is at least expensive, if nothing else. And a huge leap of faith, so I have utmost respect for anyone taking the gamble. But for anyone wanting to migrate to the US, I don't really see the point unless you really, really want to work in Silicon Valley or something like that... and even then, most people I know who went there moved back soon after because quote: it's bs
  • 5
    @miksaraj
    Yep. I've been working for years trying to get UK citizenship. It's a long process for a family.

    The problem we're facing right now, like everything in the US, is the visas are being used by corporations exploiting workers and not used for actual immigration purposes, ans for the express purpose of supressing wages.
  • 3
    @SortOfTested exactly: f'd up. The promised land of freedom my fat arse :D
  • 2
    @Wisecrack don’t think we needed any “real experience“ on the first place.
    I welcome the decision but it doesn’t have any effect

    They won’t call people from outside but that doesn’t mean jobs are available for US under-grades, they are just transferring it to india office

    So as a result of this decision if someone leaves US office, india office has opening
  • 4
    @miksaraj i would say it greatly depends. As someone that has lived in 3 different countries I can definitely see why they would want to move somewhere else, specially in terms of developers where a senior salary in Mexico(for example, and I say this from experience) is way tf less than that of some of my juniors here in Texas. Like waaaay tf less. The cost of living varies greatly, but where I live they are middle-upper class in terms of the way they get to live. So I am all about immigration, I would just hope it wasn't aa fucking shit as it is for people.
  • 3
    Exactly people talk about salary difference and less salary for offshore offices
    They never consider “Purchase Power Parity”
  • 2
    Indians and their handlers wgo game the system are angry, even under this post. Juicy.
  • 4
    They will be simply moved to other office location in another country.
    With remote work gaining mainstream for a while it can be even beneficial for them.
    I worked for 3-4 companies in other countries remotely during my lifetime and never been there. Some of those people I know only from chat because there was no skype back then and we managed to deliver so I don’t see any problem except bigger market and $$$$ for remote working tools.
  • 3
    @vane correct from last two months i saw surge in hiring from google , Amazon and apple , they never hired hardware engineers before this but now they are moving hardware division to india , there are a ton of openings for firmware engineers( based on linkedin )

    I guess they knew before hand that there will be ban on visa
    bans won’t help, you have to impose extra taxes on companies that employ offshore resources that’s the only way to keep the jobs in home and only go offshore when you really need excellence, not because it’s cheap !!
  • 8
    I don't understand why there are green card ads on the internet targeted at EU citizens -- why would I move to a worse country?
  • 0
    @bittersweet because you better country citizens always try to prove yourself to USA desperately, the country saved you from Nazis and Soviets both, protected you, helped to rebuild your postwar economy so you ungrateful douches do not start another conflict smong yourselves.
  • 2
    God damnit, back when there was the, for vocabulary lack of a better word, election match between Clinton and this dumb fuck we used to literally take bets in school with teachers and students alike who was gonna be elected.

    Day comes, it's Trump, nobody thought the Americans could've been that stupid.
    Please take no offense in this, I'm merely reflecting on what most students thought.
  • 5
    @Ranchu what’s wrong with a dumb president, at-least he is doing all the right things for states
  • 2
    @bittersweet people used to it after manhattan project that good inventions are made by america despite the fact that they’re just selling european ideas 😂
  • 3
    @hardfault He does not, in fact, he as a leader of said country portraits that country to other nations as if it's a bunch of racists, terrorists, Nazis and whatever else he fucking does.

    Personal opinion, when I look at Trump as a President, a person clearly not fit for it, I'm wondering how this "person" could even have been elected in the first place.

    Tl;Dr; To other countries he portraits the USA as a bunch of dumbfucks.
    And I don't think that's the right thing to do as a leader of state.
  • 7
    @vane Well, the US is a great country for entrepreneurs and investors, and a lot of tech innovation is still happening there.

    I don't intend to discredit the achievements of Americans... But for EMPLOYEES, it's not that great of a country. Labor laws and citizen's individual rights are much worse than in many of the EU states.
  • 6
    So enough violation of devRant's no politics rule.
    If you're not directly affected of deportation please be quiet now. Thank you for your contributions. 👍
  • 5
    @aviophile where did you get that ridiculous idea from that we Europeans always try to prove ourselves for Americans?
  • 3
    @bittersweet well they have big advantage over eu that is very big consumer market with fairly simple law. It’s way easier to make business there then in EU but let me be a little futuristic and as globalization is progressing and automation of taxes / payments processing takes place all of those advantages will vanish.

    Brain draining will be more distributed as tools for distributed work will progress.

    And if people with skills won’t be able to work there money will flow somewhere else.

    Desire to make products won’t disappear but those jobs will be delivered by other nations in other countries. Same like electronics and other goods.
  • 9
    Trump does exactly what he was voted for to do: crack down on import of low skilled labour that drives down the wage levels and working conditions for domestics. Of course, those who profited from that are crying now.
  • 2
    @Ranchu god damn it is so clichey but you deserve it. “Lion does not concern itself with the opinion of the sheep”. Trump prevents freeloaders of the world taking advantage of America and your tears are delicious.
  • 4
    @miksaraj this thread, many online forums. Always telling Americans who to choose and not to choose, how to live snd not. Nobody cares other than people inside your echo chamber.
  • 4
    @heyheni Ah, I see when people don’t buy your bullshit idea of America should be cheated by 3rd world, you suddenly don’t want any more input.
  • 2
    @aviophile As a President, he should concern himself with the opinions of the nations of the world regarding his country.
  • 2
    @dfox politics here, please moderate.
  • 7
    @heyheni And that from the OP of such a topic - after the feedback was not quite what was expected. A bit of an asshole move, isn't it?

    @Ranchu No, he should be concerned about what those say who voted for him. That's how democracy works. If countries like Germany don't do that because "nationalism baaad muh", that's their problem.
  • 3
    @Fast-Nop i was thinking the same , i have not seen a grown man call daddy on buncha kids 😂🤪🤣
  • 8
    @heyheni to be honest, I see no violations here and I’m not going to moderate any of the comments. People are allowed to express their opinions if a topic is posted that has political aspects in nature (having to do with tech). The opinions expressed here all seemed to be in the spirit of debate and expressed in a civil way.
  • 3
    @dfox ok thank you for clarification 🙂
  • 2
    @Fast-Nop It could be argued that the post it self is purely related to poltics, not that i care since i shouldnt be the one speaking.
  • 5
    @Frederick I think the post is fine (and the discussion too) - political stuff that directly impacts tech is allowed, and this is certainly one of those things.
  • 3
    I want cyberpunk 2077 world before 2077 so I can experience those things in RL not only in a game.
  • 6
    And actually, even Indians have been complaining about the exploitation of H1B holders, that's how shitty the conditions are. Now that's of course not a reason for Trump to step in, but bad working conditions drag down the level for everyone because companies can dictate the conditions.

    Also, the idea to compensate bad US education with immigration is nonsense because what will the children of these immigrants do? Also become uneducated Americans? So then, more immigration? And what to do with the ever growing part of domestic uneducated people? That's not sustainable.
  • 1
    @hardfault I dont follow?
  • 1
    @aviophile we save them from Nazis but not from Sovietization.
  • 3
    @Ranchu in our defense America's had that image for a very long time. The media propagates the stereotype. The same media that set the left and right against each other after occupy because moderate united center scared the shit out of bankers on wall street. They killed that movement as fast as possible and they kept us at each other's throat ever since, courtesy of the media of course. Partisanship is poison.
  • 4
    @Wisecrack Apparently so, in a decade or two, they will miss thegood old days when Soviet heaven existed...
  • 1
    @heyheni yeah I can see why too. Should have read the rules more thoroughly lol.
  • 2
    @aviophile You do realize, you would had been crushed as well, if you guys didnt join the war? Germany was like one the strongest millitary powers at the time and only stopped by their own mistakes. If it wasnt for resistance, germany would like had got atom bombs before the states.
  • 1
    @aviophile I like your style.
  • 2
    @Frederick Germany wouldn't have gotten the nuke. The importance of the Telemark bombing in Norway was greatly exaggerated after the fact. Mainly because there wasn't much of a resistance in Norway, and the Norwegians figured that only punishing women and children after the war (they did that) made them look like lame assholes.
  • 3
    @Fast-Nop I do agree on that a Lot of people joined the nazis, but i disagree on the resistance was almost non-exsisting, germany even deployed a pretty decent amount to norway and it was not only because of the failed attemp of and invastion from Britain.
  • 4
    @miksaraj I live here and I still think it’s the place to be. I don’t think the US has fundamentally more problems than other places in the world that I have been. They are just more visible for some reason. In fact, for how racist everyone thinks we are, pretty much the majority of my friends from overseas with visas think this is the most forward thinking place they have lived and say it’s worse back home.

    So where does this perception come from?

    The problem is a certain unnamed group of politicals (let’s call them idiots for the sake of this literature) think that everything needs to be fair and that nothing currently is fair. Even stuff that’s completely fair isn’t fair. So they have been bolting on rules for ages to close this loophole or close that loophole, or open this loophole here because it’s unfair that there isn’t one.

    So when you try to make sense of our laws, you can’t figure it out because there’s a sensible base law but then billions of exceptions that idiots wrote in the interest of making the US more fair to people who 1. Don’t work 2. Don’t live here 3. Don’t pay taxes.

    It’s much more complicated than that but then again what isn’t? As much as I dislike trump, putting our country first is 100% the right attitude and idiots need to figure that out and figure it out fast. And best of all, that’s fair. Every country should put themselves first, and most do. Except the US. Because these worldly idiots who have never left this country don’t actually realize that nobody is putting us first over themselves.

    This is what it means to live in a free country. China doesn’t have this problem to the same degree because people aren’t allowed to voice opinions (I personally know of people who have had family members disappear) and the government controls the news so they don’t have to make political decisions based on what looks friendly on the news. But freedom of thought is much more important than that.
  • 4
    @Ranchu no he should not. The presidents job is not to kiss other countries asses just to make them like us a bit more. He needs to be diplomatic, yes, but if the US is getting taken advantage of then of course other countries will hate him for fixing that, doesn’t mean that’s not the right thing to do.
  • 7
    @Fast-Nop
    Like most Republicans, he will occasionally do the right thing, in the wrong way, for the wrong reasons. Everything he does is for show, the man is a human exercise in Brownian motion.
  • 5
    Also FYI for those interested, the latest I read on this is that this won’t affect the status of current visa holders, so you won’t be “packing your bags” AFAIK, which I think is the right call. Companies would be screwed if the government just fitted their workforce.
  • 6
    @SortOfTested couldn’t have said it better myself.

    1. Yes, he is a pathological liar
    2. No, he is not smart
    3. Yes, the general direction of his policies are pretty much correct (with a few exceptions)
    4. Yes, he frequently does things for the wrong reasons

    You can understand why he gets a bad wrap though. When I first read these headlines my knee jerk reaction was “what the fuck, I can’t believe that asshole!” But then I had some time to think about it and realized that hey... you know what, there’s something to this.

    That’s the difference between him and other presidents. Even if he’s stupid, he doesn’t optimize for that knee jerk reaction. Which frankly as much as I dislike him, I respect that.

    The problem is emotional politicals like the aforementioned idiots who want everything to be fair base everything on those knee jerk reactions. And to be fair, there’s something there too but I don’t see the weighing of both sides happening in that argument and that’s the problem.
  • 2
    @Frederick Atomic bombs does not just spawn in America you know. You need to carry it since they did not even have ICBMs back then. Plus, your scenario is more like "if my aunt had moustache type" too much should have would have could have. America saved, it did happen, no need to go for alternative realities where everything aligns for Germany's success.
  • 3
    @Wisecrack If I was smarter, I would stay away all political bullshit, but I was on commute back home so I am not particularly regretting letting some steam off under this thread :) .
  • 3
    @aviophile America saved the world? Not exactly, America spend most of their time in the war fighting the Japs in the pacific. Yeah, they did invade italy with the EU alies, but italy was one of the worst military powers in the entire world, they only succeed in losing land in Africa.

    Britain will still be the ones who did the most against the nazis, and the ones who kept fighting from the beginning of the world til the end.

    "Fantasize?, well its calculated from how devloped the planes, tanks, missiles etc were and how many great commanders they had at the time." America couldnt have defated the Japs and the Nazis at the same time. It would had taken years for America to invade Japan if they hadnt nuked them, since Japan is a pretty hard place to invade.

    And your last statement trying to implaying that i am a nazi is ridiculous.
  • 3
    @Frederick
    It's only impressive it took this long to Godwin the conversation.
  • 1
    @Frederick tell me which country sent arms, supplies, money etc to a war that was not his concern until they sent their men to save Europeans whose ungrateful grandchildren tries to rewrite the history and erase American help from the memories during both world war and cold war.
  • 4
    @aviophile Well, thats not the the point at all. I am not some "anti-american" if thats what you think, i just find it a bit ironic that you yourself are trying to undermine the effort of the countries in europa.

    Also if you didnt think letting the world become a nazis world wouldnt impact America, then you are wrong, who do you think, you could trade etc with in a world of nazis, communists and the imperial japs and other enemies of the states?

    And how can Bittersweets original point at all being "ungrateful of america"
  • 4
    @Frederick pffft have you not seen our now-a-days republican party? We will be chilling with the Nazis.

    This was a horrible joke. I apologize to everyone present. I will see myself out.
  • 1
  • 5
    @AleCx04 Actually, i do like a lot about the states and hold the country in high regard. Definitely a place i would like to visit again. Even though i don't think a lot of people would think i do.
  • 4
    @Frederick I honestly never thought you had a negative view on it my man :D no issues from my part.
  • 2
    people on the left hate trump and the right.

    the right hates clinton/obama and everyobe on the left.

    and im overhere like "I hate all of them. elect me as forever king because all other options suck."

    No, seriously.
  • 3
    @Frederick i think where a lot of the frustration comes from is hat no matter what foreign policy we enact countries that are rarely invoked in global politics will sit back and point out why is wrong with what we did. “Hey stop policing the world” and “where were the Americans” are statements that are rattled of with barely a breath drawn in between. And I comes from the governments of nations that we regularly send supplies and cash bonds to. That kind of crap legit pisses me off.
    And on another point of yours, there are regimes out there that are comparable to nazis both in belief and extent of war crimes. I think we have a pretty good idea what it’s like to share the earth with them.
  • 3
    5-10 years ago I would've said Yay assuming FANG fills all the spots with domestic hires rather than just hiring less.

    More though, I'm mostly happy where I am... lots of monkeys but I make enough.
  • 1
    @billgates it's alright to be a codemonkey.

    If we didn't exist how, there would be no higher path to aspire to.
  • 1
    @Wisecrack I no longer aspire though... Seems I will always be in a position that I'm basically overqualified for... But the upside is minimal effort needed to look like a genius...
  • 1
    @billgates plateaued. Now that your ascended master you must teach others the path Autumn unenlightened newbie status onto the one true path of the guru.
  • 1
    @FrodoSwaggins Sorry for the late reply.

    Personally why should i be aginest their politics, they are just doing what banefits themselves, which i do myself. Thats life of cause. And i respect you guys democracy.

    Well about the regimes out there, there are like nazis like North Korea, are no where close to be a threat to you guys, they are still using soviet vehicles from the cold war age. And the only few countries that could be close to a threat to you arent dumb enough to start a millitary war with you.

    I am myself even agree ing on you guys that countries like my own should pay the 2% defense to NATO that we arent even paying.

    But like a lot of europeans that are bitching on America, so are there a lot of Americans bitching on Europa as well.
  • 1
    @Frederick that’s definitely true but most of the Europe directed bitching I hear is actually still largely directed at Americans. Sample conversation:

    Q: Why can’t we do X? European country Y does X!

    A: we are not European country Y.

    This is a consistent pattern in us politics. There’s a certain group that thinks we can do things just because we can or because other people have done them. Even if it worked out not so great for those that did do it! Very frustrating.
  • 2
    @FrodoSwaggins I kinda do agree on it, one of the examples where barnie is like "we should be socialists like Denmark" even though we arent a socialist country. And dont get me started why this model wouldnt work in the US.

    I have noticed like both parties both seems pretty extreme and there is nothing in between both is a thing i think leads the politics to be a bit more extreme.
  • 0
    @Frederick actually I would like to get you started, I’m legitimately interested in your take
  • 1
    @Frederick the extremeness is a fairly new thing. It’s more psychology than some special USA issue. People naturally will find ways to disagree with each other if they don’t like each other.
  • 0
    🎺 idiot
  • 0
    @Wisecrack this comment was butchered horribly by my tiny keyboard.
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