Well, I am not against LGBTQ community or anything specific but a Slack community I am part of has this things configured.

I mean c'mon, at this point, 'guys' is quite a gender neutral term. Also, I don't think OP tried to disrespect anyone by using 'guys'.

Also, the said Slack community is group of start-up hipsters and super active Twitter users.

  • 8
    I don't intend to trigger anyone or initiate a political or religious discussions.

    My intentions here was share that how a community of hip Twitter users think that changing 'guys' to 'folks' will dramatically make a place inclusive.

    I have never seen any core team members of this community contribute anything beyond their keyboard or screen.
  • 3
    it is same kind of thinking putting like on video will help poor kids in africa. They do it mostly to feel better.
  • 2
    One of the options says, 'Humans'

    How bloody exclusive towards Lizardberg. Damn!
  • 20
    I don't think it's a LGBT thing, necessarily.
    As a girl (or woman) working in a mostly male environment, it is nice to feel acknowledged and included, and even small gestures like that are very appreciated.
    We interviewed a guy for a post-doc position, and he was asked what he expects from a PhD student he supervises. When he answered he said "he or she will have to..." several times, and it was so nice to hear.
    "Guys" may feel gender-neutral for men, but it is not something I ever use to refer to a mixed group. I go out with my friends, not with "the guys", unless these friends are strictly men.
  • 4
    @NickyBones See, I am not against the idea of inclusiveness.

    My point here is, the people who run this community don't practice the same idea they enforce onto others or call out others.

    As @danielstaleiny said, it's about making themselves feel good. Very much like Google/Facebook changing their logos in June and reverting on midnight of 30th June.

    Just showing the world that they are inclusive but in reality they are just trying to comply to not get in trouble.

    I myself try to be as gender neutral as possible in every interaction online or offline. Another reason for that is hiding a person's gender identity while talking about them in third person.
  • 3
    There was an ongoing discussion about a company being biased towards top colleges and I called them out like the admins of this community keep micro-managing.

    This is how the group owner lashed at me in my DMs.

    About me calling Reddit mods gay, was in another discussion where it was an ongoing joke format about Reddit moderators being overly strict which is used frequently on Reddit.
  • 3
    But what if it was intentional to not include some people? 🤔
  • 9
    "I support anyone's right to be who they want to be: my question is, to what extent do I have to participate in your self image"
    - Dave Chappelle
  • 5
    I just realized that this is a strangely english thing. When I write a question in english I also start it with "hey" "heys guys" ,"hi guys"... it feels more "casual" in english for some reason... yet in my native language, we don't do that... we just ask the question directly, without including any identifiers at the beginning...

  • 0
    @Hazarth What's your native language, if you can share?
  • 1
    Addressing with hey / hi followed by a pronoun may be friendly but it's definitely an etiquette. In native language you would be generally speaking with a sense of closeness. And that's why you don't use it. I don't either. Not even in English sometimes.
  • 2
    I as a male don't think that "guys" is an inclusive term. I rather see it as the opposite of "girls" - which also isn't inclusive.

    My rule of thumb for English: When there are distinct words for each gender, they definitely are to be used for selecting only that specific gender.
    They mention a specific gender for a reason.

    If you would use "guys" for the same meaning as "girls", you most likely would also call a "server" a "client", "Java" "C" or "TCP" "UDP"...

    Different words have different attached meanings (which most often are also context-dependent).
  • 1
    @Oktokolo Fair point.

    However, one cannot make a public announcement/post in a group of 1000s of members addressing each one's individual identity.
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    @Floydimus Im speaking Slovak. So I assume this might be similar in more Slavic languages. Not sure though. I know It's similar in Czech too
  • 2
    Just start with the question or use a generic like "hi" or "hello".

    Can also start with "hello, fellow comrades in the war against the empire" if you get paid by the letter...
  • 5
    I like the approach of the wise HK-47 who just called everyone meatbag. Is even more inclusive than "human" in the galaxy far, far away.

    Jokes aside, I think "hi, everyone" is a good replacement that also doesn't imply any stance about gender stuff.

    Just don't say "mxn" and "womxn" like some extremists and I won't give a shit.
  • 3
    @Floydimus "they are just trying to comply to not get in trouble". Aren't we all? :)
  • 1
    @NickyBones lol

    @deadlyRants True. But if someone accidentally slips, that shouldn't be called out.

    @Oktokolo indeed.

    @Hazarth guess you are right. Same with my language too.

    @guiltyspark Let me check.
  • 1
    But if calling them out, the least aggressive and disturbing way of doing it, is indeed the bot posting a polite standard phrase - bonus points when using a private wisper...

    As this thread proves, some people just don't know about words for explicit gender selection (they probably don't exist in every language).
    Telling them might prevent some faux pas in the future.

    Don't forget, that there actually are communities, where women indeed are seen as lower humans made by some god to serve and please their owning men.
  • 2
    @Oktokolo on average,women are of lesser height than men. So they are indeed "lower" 😄
  • 4
    @Oktokolo fair point.

    @iiii stop being an idiot now.
  • 2
    Dude Steven Universe uses guys wtf.
  • 1
    @Floydimus I can't stop degeneracy.
    Degeneracy overflow.
  • 0
    @iiii then don't complaint when people treat you poorly, okay?
  • 1
    Slack sounds like yet another platform to avoid. Sounds like a complete shithole.
  • 0
    @Demolishun some communities are. But sometime I find good people and content.
  • 3
    If I encountered a talking hippogryph, I would stare in awe, exclaim "HOLY SHIT A TALKING HIPPOGRYPH WHAT THE FUCK".

    I understand that that talking hippogrpyh probably has to deal with people's surprised yelling on a daily basis. I understand that it probably gets a bit annoying to deal with all the questions.

    That's the burden of being unique.

    It might feel unfair to the hippogryph, but it would be unfair to others to expect anything different.

    People aren't bigots, they aren't committing microaggressions, and they aren't creating an unsafe space just for being unaccustomed to a situation.

    Getting militant because people do not immediately understand you is unacceptable.

    It would be fair though -- after granting some reasonable time for adjustment -- if the hippogryph asked everyone to respect them for who they are, and ask for a specific way of addressing them.

    If you are calling the hippogryph "hey weird eaglehorse" just to spite them, then you're the dick.
  • 2
    I would blurt out "hey guys" before even thinking about it, like OP did. Especially in an online chat you joined to ask a question about software, gender identity might not be the first thing on your mind. If the community stands behind automatic chat notifs on inclusive language, no prob.
    I have yet to meet a female person who really takes offense at this kind of "micro-offense" or "nitpick" but who knows.
  • 1
    @bittersweet exactly. Getting offended on every minute interaction and expecting people to know and comply by every social rule out there is ridiculous.

    Especially when communities primary focus is tech.

    Also this was a mass address. If I address someone specifically wrong for the first time, they have all the right to correct me.

    Even after they mentioning it, I act like a dick then they have all the right to call me out.

    But even before all that policing me is plain stupid imo.@webketje
  • 1
    @Floydimus slavery used to be a social convention. Women not having access to education, to be house wives with little other responsibility, used to be a social convention.

    Social conventions change. Software engineer communities are male dominated. Changing the social conventions we use to try to make them more welcoming to a wider demographic is good.

    Yes you were rudely treated in private. Are you raging about being asked to use a more inclusive term than 'guys' or are you raging at the community admins and throwing shale that happens to also hit random other demographics, thereby perpetuating the frustration by upsetting others.

    You say they have right to call you out for it if they mention it and you act like a dick, but isn't that what you're doing?
  • 1
    @atheist the OP in the main post isn't me.

    Also, I always make sure to use gender neutral terms and consider guys and dude as gender neutral.

    If someone mentions they should be called in a specific way, I follow it.

    The point here is, admins are hypocrite and are offended by someone unintentionally addressing the audience as guys where as the same admin abused me in private.
  • 1
    @Floydimus guyette and dudette 😉
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    I think we should boycott learner's dictionary over their definition. They say that "guys" and "folks" are interchangeable, but of course, if "guys" is unacceptable then so should "folks" be. That slack response contains inappropriate phrases!

  • 4
    The meaning of a word in language is dictated by what the general consensus says is the meaning.

    Many words have completely changed their meaning over the years. Language also comes with intent. The speaker says words with both meaning and intent, but I have always used the word "guys" with the meaning of "everyone" and the intent of including everyone.

    I just see it as some words are used more often to refer to a specific gender or type of person without the intent of being derogatory - beautiful for a woman, or hunk/stud for a man.

    Everyone is a guy but it's mainly attributed to a male, but a group of guys can include everyone.

  • 6
    What does "guys" vs. women even have to do with LGBTQ?
  • 0
    Eh, looks like this is just OP's in the picture problem, just keep away from most linux users who seem to not be mentally sane, they're scary.
  • 1
    @cmarshall10450 sigh. The term has lost some of its gendered connotations, but they're still present. Perception and perspective matters, you may not mean it as exclusionary, but to some it is.
  • 1
    OK, I can understand that it can seem exclusionary to some. I do try to use the correct words to not offend the audience that I'm talking to. I also change my ton and cadence to appeal more to them.

    There are words for the disabled like "handicapped" that are perfectly fine to use and are used within the public domain like "handicapped badges" in the US. Are they OK?
  • 7
    Some time ago I was sitting down with some female coworkers. I was the only male, and was sitting quietly going about my own business.

    Some lady from a different department came in, literally said something like "hey girls good afternoon! do you know where X is? they told me it should be around the corner of Y"

    The girls in question looked at me confused and said "do you know?"

    I said sure, and gave her instructions. The lady thanked me and went about her business.

    Did I toss myself at the floor crying thinking that I was the victim of a microaggression? no. Have I ever felt any type of aggression in my white-man privileged world? I am Mexican, so you fucking bet your sweet dippy I've had.

    Did I cry because I was not included? No, for all I know she didn't see me, I don't know and don't give a fuck.
  • 4
    @atheist Especially because perception & perspective matters, I think it's often not necessary to adjust preemptively based on assumptions.

    We hired a trans person, and immediately after there was a whole stir up about office toilet labels.

    Lots of opinions from people who had no real stake in the issue.

    Eventually someone had the brilliant idea to just ask the person in question: "Would you appreciate gender neutral toilet signs" — to which the answer was "I don't give a rat's ass about the label, as long as the stall is clean".

    Not saying usage of the word "guys" is a case where you shouldn't act preemptively.

    Just that it's more important to have inclusive conversations, than to have exclusive assumptions about inclusiveness.
  • 2
    We've hired both women and trans people in our team. Recently we were citiscised for being too focused on hiring women, because it was seen as being sexist.
  • 4
    @cmarshall10450 because no one wins in this situation. You can be friendly and nice to someone, but if by force of habit you don't use a selected pronoun, or don't ask for it, or whatever the hell thing that offends people happens then suddenly you are <insert bad term here>

    I have tried my best to be accommodating. Shit, one time some person got on my face because I read the id card, and called the person by name. "All right <X> everything checks out, you can go in have a good time!" (I was working at a bar) this person got on my face and said "my pronoun is they/them" and I said "ok cool, I did not use a pronoun though, I called you by your name, is that wrong?" And they said "no, I need to hear you say the pronoun"

    I was left like this 0.o, I told the person that there was no need for it on the interaction. And they caused a scene
  • 2
    @bittersweet "Lots of opinions from people who had no real stake" - I think that's a lot of the frustration for your everyman when it comes to conversations like inclusivity, they're not being admonished by someone who might actually be affected by their choice of words, but by someone who has taken it upon themselves to be offended based on an imaginary person's values.

    It's important to be an ally, it's also important to know when to stay the fuck in your lane.
  • 2
    @AleCx04 well, that's weird.
  • 1
    @Floydimus HOW DARE THEY exclude the helicopters?! Hypocrits
  • 1
    @Oktokolo I think it is probably related to one's surrounding and background, for example in all of my circles and environments "guys", is used in a gender neutral way
  • 2
    @bittersweet OK. There's at least one woman in this thread saying they prefer different terms, and a lot of men saying "guys" is fine.

    I have a disability, somewhere along the line twitter picked up on this and my feed started to include a lot of diverse voices. I'm aware of the conversations. I have faced similar challenges.

    I've had the inclusive conversations, trust me.
  • 1
    @matt-jd how many of your circles are mostly men?
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    @atheist varied, but it has been used that way by all my English speaking circles no matter the gender balance. I think a point of bias would be that these are relatively young people aka 20~+-
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    All sides are - at least partially - wrong.

    I understand the wink of being more inclusive - I'd support it.

    What is not okay and what is a common theme is to force others to endure what oneself had to endure.

    Tolerance and respect is sth. both sides need to have.

    That's what's missing largely nowadays. Two sides clashing constantly, each claiming it's their right.
  • 3
    @iiii it felt as if that person wanted me to respond to a kink. I am an ally man I really am, but shit like that severely ruins it for everyone else.
  • 0
    @Fast-Nop being gender inclusive?
  • 3
    @IntrusionCM Yes, that is a common issue. Both sides have trouble acting in good faith.

    Change in language can't happen if the result would be less convenient than what's already in use, and it's problematic to force change from the top down. But try to explain that to people who confuse critics with enemies.

    In my native language nouns also have a "gender", and for the ones referring to a person the neutral plural form is identical to the male one. You can guess how upset some people are. The result is a clusterfuck of weird and impractical solution proposals. But universities push it hard and won't let you graduate if you don't follow those rules.
  • 6
    As a female who is usually in an all-female environment, I would 100% refer to a group of my female peers as "guys" when speaking face-to-face or in writing.
  • 1
    So did they had to ask you specificly because you didn't feel included in "girls"?
  • 2
    @Oktokolo err no, they asked me because none of them had any clue as to how to give her directions lmfao.
  • 0
  • 3
    the moment i would see that shit would be the moment i would start wanting and trying to intentionally trigger someone
  • 0
    @Midnight-shcode I wish I could do that.
  • 2
    Glad to say this is a western problem.
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