So a group of 'researchers' (you'll get later why I call them 'researchers') conducted research to find the most secure browser.

Their result is Google Chrome!

Few minor details:

- THE WHOLE FUCKING RESEARCH THINGY WAS (mostly?) SPONSORED BY GOOGLE.

- THEY COMPARED IT MOSTLY TO INTERNET FUCKING EXPLORER AND EDGE.

Are they fucking retarded or something?! Yeah if it's going to go like that, Google Chrome will certainly become the winner/number 1.

Mother of fucking god.

DEVRANT REMOVED MY SECOND WTF 😭

@linuxxx (in the tags)

Orfox > chrome tyvm

@Ashkin Not sure what tyvm means but yeah agreed anyways!

@linuxxx tyvm -- thank you very much, a friendly-cheeky version of "obviously"

@Ashkin Ah thankies!

@Ashkin but you can use it only with for right? But Tor is too slow for my normal surfing :(

And were they expecting the following:
Hey Google which is best browser
Google: totally NOT Chrome!

@gitpush Probably went like that yes :P

@linuxxx lol research gone wrong 😂

Don't give a fuck and use whatever browser you want. Are you Mozilla? No. Are you Google? No. Are you Micky$oft? No. Are you whoever runs Opera? No. Do you have to worry about competition? No. Can you use whatever fucking browser you want? Yes. Do you still waste time researching which of these browsers is 3% faster? Yes. Do you waste more time searching than you gain using the 3% faster browser? Yes. Am I tired about this browser bashing bullshit? Absolutely. Will companies use money to buy whatever they need? You bet. Are we done with this browser bullshit now? For the love of <insert desired godlike whatever here, not defining what god is or if it exists> YES.

Oh hell no (imo, downvote if you wish, that's your right!), as long as shit like Google Chrome exists, I will not rest with the browser wars.

Other than that, this wasn't even close to pointing towards a browser war/bullshit thingy? @Kimmax

@linuxxx why chrome is shit?

It's just capitalism...

Apparently all those health organizations and studies are sponsored by food and stuff companies...

@Zennoe yeah but chromium doesn't come with any of the proprietary codecs that are common on the web. I don't think it can even play mp4 video.

@billgates cronyism, not capitalism.

The former is the corruption of the latter. Important distinction.

@Ashkin fine... typo.... You didn't have to -1 me.... :(

@billgates ^^

@billgates who should pay for them? The car industry maybe? ;)

@vincetrot data collection, proprietary Google code :) (imo that's both bad)

@linuxxx So everything not open source is shit? I agree with you, open source is awesome, but sometimes it's just not the best (right tool for the job). For the data collection part, Google is very open about it (see https://privacy.google.com). It's your right to want to keep everything about yourself private, but just because you have some convictions, it does not mean Google products are shit. In fact, they offer awesome services that the vast majority of people benefits from everyday, including myself, and I'm grateful for that. They are really pushing the boundaries of technology, and to be able to use powerful tools like artificial intelligence, collecting data must now be part of that process.

@vincetrot Wowowow. Where the fuck did I write that?

Although I ethically think that its true, i never implied that.

@vincetrot I think that if a company provides services which collects vast amounts of data AND is integrated in the biggest spy/mass surveillance program ever created, it's shit.

Just my personal opinion. Fun fact: i block Google throughout my whole network :)

@linuxxx Sorry for the first sentence. But what do you think about the rest? Do you agree that data collection is a powerful tool, and that if done with transparency, is not evil?

@linuxxx what is that "biggest surveillance program"? PRISM?

@vincetrot I think data collect in such vast amount is evil by default because it's not needed and doesn't work (that's been proven numerous times).
@runfrodorun also has some good thoughts on this!

@vincetrot Next to that, as far as I know, there's hardly any mass surveillance program that's transparent!

(@Michelle remember what I said about discussions regarding stuff like privacy? Perfect example :P)

@linuxxx when you say that "it doesn't work", what do you mean by that? And how has it been proven? It seems to work pretty well for Google services (since we are talking about them)

@vincetrot I was specifically talking about the mass surveillance :)

@linuxxx @vincetrot Also @Ashkin has got some good views regarding this I thought :)

@linuxxx is literally calling his gang lol

@tahnik Maaaaybe :P

@Ashkin if cronyism and capitalism are two different things then give me an example of non-crony capitalism

@runfrodorun No. I see where you are going, but can you please elaborate on that?

@runfrodorun I don't agree with "almost useless conveniences", I think they are pretty useful! And 10 years ago, a lot if things where different and referring to the past to argument can be misleading (if you go back far enough, everybody thought the earth was flat). Also, you make a lot of assumptions about the intentions behind the collection of data and it make me think of some kind of conspiracy theory..

@runfrodorun what do you mean by getting rid of all the bullshit? You stopped working?

@isaachaller

Capitalism is, very simply, the ability for a consumer to choose to buy something or not. The more competition (and therefore choices), the better the system works. Competition breeds innovation and better value:cost ratios, and makes for happier consumers.

Cronyism is taking this system and basically adding corruption through artificially limiting consumers' choices. It destroys the system.

Anyway, you asked for examples of capitalism that aren't cronyism. Here are two economic systems that work nicely:

Lassiez faire ("leave them alone") -- this system eventually turns into free market because very time people are left alone to trade amongst themselves, a free market is the natural result. The only people who trade are those who want to.

Free market -- the willing and consensual exchange of goods/services between two parties. You buying apples from a farmer, a blender at a garage sale, pastries from your favorite bakery. Buying the new iPhone, or someone's new hand-made phone. Basically everything that doesn't involve a monopoly or being forced to buy/sell something. The free market puts power into the hands of the consumer because they can take their money anywhere and reward anyone whose efforts they deem worthy. Only those people/companies that provide the best goods and services (And value for cost ratio) will profit, and therefore survive. However, as soon as you mix politics in -- especially legislation and regulations -- it limits consumer choices, and slowly turns capitalism into cronyism. Notable examples: health care/insurance, medicine, OSes.

Limiting choices can happen through several methods, but the most common are through laws and monopolies. Some oversight is required to prevent monopolies, but both have the same effect: reduced (or eliminated) competition, leading to price gouging and stifled innovation. It's a terrible experience for the consumer.

Basically, free choice is capitalism.
Removing that choice is cronyism.

@Ashkin Markets require regulation to keep the competition going. Companies would become monopolies without regulation, driving prices up and quality down. Cable companies are a perfect example of this. There used to be competition, until they started merging. Now we really only have Comcast and Spectrum, both of which cost too much and have terrible service.

If cronyism is a lack of consumer choice, then a free market results in cronyism.

Which browser would you suggest @linuxxx? I'm using Chromium on my personal laptop (along with Linux), but at work I'm limited to whatever I can install on Windows 7 and that falls within corporate policy... Mostly. (I've been able to sneak a few things past the group policy by running them in VMs, but that's not viable for a browser, naturally. )

@yusijs Firefox or Chromium :). Chromium because it's not as close to google as Chrome! But mostly Firefox :)

Cool. Been a while since I used firefox tbh. Dev tools were shait compared to Chromium and Chrome. Will look into it again I guess. Although google already owns my ass.

@isaachaller @runfrodorun

Think of capitalism like a game. Let's use Factorio.

When you play Factorio, your goal is always a factory that produces everything in excess, quickly, and at prefect ratios -- basically, maximum reward for minimum upkeep. In this regard, that factory is the same as a monopoly, and it's the ultimate goal of every company.

Without competition, the monopoly can still sell its product/service at the same price (reward) without needing to innovate (upkeep) to continue selling it.

In Factorio, this is boring: you've completed everything, and there's nothing left to perfect. This is why the devs work hard to make that as difficult as possible.

In real life, those efforts are regulations against monopolies.

However, you mentioned that "regulation is required to keep competition going." This is very much not true. The only place regulations are necessary is to help guard against monopolies, and to protect consumers from misleading (harmful) products.

@Ashkin A monopoly has no incentive to price consumers fairly if they could raise prices. The primary motivator for all corporations is to make a profit, not provide goods or services. If a company can find a way to make more money, it will. This includes monopolizing an industry.

When I say that regulation is necessary for competition, I mean that without regulation, monopolies would be inevitable.

It is also necessary to regulate companies in other regards if we want to preserve the environment. Corporations don't reduce emissions or properly dispose of waste unless they have to. Profits are the only thing that matters to businesses.

@runfrodorun isn’t google very open about the data that they collect? You can always opt out from personalised ads.

You’re hating a company that is building the future. Yes, they might be using people’s data for that but they are giving you a choice not to share that data.

Yes, you might be working for them. But look what they are creating by using that; the biggest cloud infrastructure in the world, with thousand of open apis that you can use to leverage that. They are creating one of the most powerful AI engine. They have created the most successful mobile operating system which is helping the mobile technology to evolve.

Yes, I can’t say that for all the companies. But Google is so far doing a great job at improving our technologies. So I think if you guys really don’t like them, just stay away from them. But I don’t think it’s fair to shout on people that uses their service. Some of us know what they are sharing and capable of browsing the internet safely.

@tahnik The thing is though, if you 'choose not to use their services', good luck staying away from them. I know a shit ton of people who use gmail, hangouts, google contacts and so on. So please explain me how I can stay out of the google bubble! Like even if I want to email my best local friend which happens quite often, he uses gmail so that already integrates me. If I want to install a privacy/tracker blocker addon from mozilla's addon page, EVEN THEY use google analytics, aaaand I am fucked again.

I'm totally fine with other people using google (hey it's their choice), as long as that doens't force my data into googles hands. This is about impossible.

@isaachaller I agree, but I'm not sure how far.

Some regulations do quite a bit of good. There are also many regulations that are in place because of good intentions, but aren't actually helpful (or only minimally so). and then there are those put in place (through corruption/cronyism) to allow politicians or their investors to profit.

A huge net of regulations tying everyone's hands isn't good, either, and we definitely have too many.

So, some regulations are good. Some are terrible. They really need to be judged on a case-by-case basis.

The fun thing is that a lot of people claim that they don't play nasty martket games while they've literally had huge fines for doing exactly that! @tahnik @Ashkin @runfrodorun. They've received a 1,something billion fine for market abuse/manipulation for their Google Shopping bullshit

It's like, everyone walks around claiming people like us (@runfrodorun @Ashkin me and other people like you know what I mean) are paranoid with our 'theories' on google/facebook/etc's market monopoly/manipulations while those companies already are under heavy investigations for exactly this and some already have received huge fines for this because IT"S FUCKING BEEN PROVEN.

@runfrodorun I've been trying to come up with a good way to say that for awhile: Google is a monopoly, but not in the usual sense. It's more of an information or pseudo-altruistic service monopoly.

I still don't know how to say it, but that doesn't mean it isn't the absolute truth.

@linuxxx don't forget about Google changing search results, ordering, and definitions to fit their political bias!

@Ashkin Oh don't worry, I'll never forget about that bullshit (as in, fucking unethical stuff) they pulled. I'll never use them if not really really really fucking needed!

@linuxxx People call me weird when I say that I avoid using Google products. Like "Who cares if you have nothing to hide?" Bitch you should care, my privacy is worth more than the 15 dollars they make off of selling personal data.

@linuxxx well it's same for them isn't it? What if they don't want to use a service that they can't trust or don't know? What if they have opted out of personalised ads and want to use a service that is trusted by millions of other people?

@tahnik Of course it's the same for them. Only I'm not going to take that shit anymore from anyone since someone I know is in trouble because of the data collection from a service that's trusted by millions. No details for privacy reasons.

@isaachaller Yup fully agreed! I try to even keep the most tiny bits of information away fromt the big services :)

@linuxxx Like you said, its really fucking hard when almost everyone I know uses Google stuff

@runfrodorun "unnecessary"

Umm, what?

One of the biggest email services

One of the biggest photo archiving service.

A search engine used by billions of people including scientists, researchers, programmers.

The biggest online video platform.

And I haven't even started talking about all the Google Cloud platform services.

I do understand that Google exploits the dumb people by using that technique you described. But that is again, some people just being dumb. They need to understand the Internet and share the appropriate informations.

There's huge amount of people using personalised ads. You use their services, they show you relevant ads and the ads gives profit to other companies. In this way Google is making money and giving you the free services. I think their strategy is very simple.

@tahnik except they're exploiting you, too.

@runfrodorun I've gotta add that completely de-googled AOSP or LineageOS are two exceptions as they come without Google services by default but yeah except for that, android is bad imo.

@runfrodorun xD

@ThatDude For sure yes! It's just that my most favourite apps don't work with it :/

@Ashkin not sure when showing people ads == exploiting people became true.

@Devman how about you read the thread to see everything you missed?

There is quite a bit literally spelled out above. 😞😧

This has been a very insightful conversation for me. Thanks to all the participants which i heartly ++'ed

But damn @Kimmax , that response was epic 😂