I still can't understand why people hate Javascript?

What research have you done so far in an attempt to understand why people hate it?

What's your professional background and experience with other languages, targets and platforms?

@alexbrooklyn I see posts on 9gag saying that it's a shitty language and is too basic to be called a programming language then this video https://youtu.be/NPB34lDZj3E saying it's not good for future

@SortOfTested I am a full-stack web developer, I love javascript, I feel like building everything using javascript, Then those python fans brag about python and make me feel inferior. I need to show them that being simple doesn't mean being bad

@F1973 These memes carry a message, about floating point arithmetic, And I know many core programming concepts not present in JavaScript. It's not very fast and not good for competitive programming, But, I don't care, I love it for what it is, It's my first programming language (is it a programming language?)

@F1973 I don't brag about JS because I know it won't be able to compete, I don't feel inferior, It's just a beautiful language

You don't have to show them anything. You have better uses of your limited and valuable time. JavaScript has a body of evidence that speaks to both it's strengths and deficiencies, as well as legions of champions. Let them argue with that instead. Nothing you say will move their needles one micrometer.

I would generally advise expanding your toolkit a little into other languages, tools, and paradigms purely because it makes you that much better and exposes you to ideas you won't see hanging out in one shed. That's all your decision though, you do you. You definitely will never win an anonymous fight on the internet.

@SortOfTested I am learning python because of peer pressure, I like to use javascript as much as possible

@theabbie
Python is handy, especially as glue code and for ML. Might consider after that learning something a little more strictly typed so you can grok the benefits of provable applications. Maybe even something functional like ocaml or Scala.

Nobody forgets their first. Even a decade after it died I still have some love for AS3 because I saw it's potential as a unique graphics engine while most folks hated it's compiled nature. To my mind that was caused by how it was used (heavily animated and unoptimized banners everywhere) but that's just like how research into the atom made us able to build atom bombs. The language is not the issue, but how people use and percieve that language.

I'll pinpoint my turning point where I went from "This isn't all that bad" to "fuck all of this entire hellscape".

I was setting up axios for this fairly simple job where all I needed was a simple get to a public host. I set the BaseUrl and called it with the right path, but no matter what I did it went to localhost.

That's because the axios property is called BaseURL, and in the magical world of js you can just invent properties without explicitly declaring them - other languages typically won't even let you do that for dicts - and if BaseURL isn't set it will default to localhost with no warning.

Typescript helps and I see it as a requirement, but it's a hacky bandaid with its own set of baffling quirks.

https://devrant.com/rants/2764629/...

https://devrant.com/rants/2904766/...

I feel js is a constant stream of little time bandits like that, and for no good reason other than "it's just how it ended up and we can't change it or the internet will break".

Beyond those who hate it just because it's cool to do so, or those who hate it because they're thinking of JS circa 2005 (a very different language of course):

It usually boils down to the type system. Not always - there's certainly other valid gripes, especially if you widen the criteria to be the JS ecosystem rather than JS itself, but that's always been my main complaint by far.

IMO the point with Javascript is what came with it, aka node and npm, and then all the bloody framework people started using and the trends those frameworks brought.

The language itself is what it is, made for a specific purpose, and there's nothing bad (the 0.6+0.1 meme is valid for any language, it's a matter of FPU).

The main problem is what came *with* the language.

@ltlian They have proper documentation, I don't know, JS might hurt to those who have worked with other languages, To those who have mastered it, it's best

@AlmondSauce JS originated in browser, so, most of the stuff is handled by browser, that makes JS simple, other so called programming languages have to work with hardware

A PHP Dev walks into the room.

And you think you have the worst hated language 🤷‍♂️

Own it, use it to its full potential and screw anyone who says otherwise.
It has its purpose, to make life easier then vbscript.

Everyone hates NodeJS but that's ok, no one enjoys dependency hell.

@C0D4 People have a sort of attachment towards there first programing language

@theabbie I'm well aware of the history of JS - but that doesn't help it's inadequacies, the type system being the major one today.

@theabbie this is true most of the time.

Visual Basic was my first, PHP was my second, and despite everyone's hatred for it, it's still my goto language - 15 years down the drain otherwise 😅

You'll usually go deep with 1 language and be capable in others, and if that language you chose is one of the most socially negated, so be it, it's just a tool you've become accustomed too and probably know enough to make the most of it in any use case.

It's very rare I actually need to use another language on the server side, excluding vendor built projects.

@AlmondSauce Web is growing at incredible rate, it's Harsh but it's the truth

Don't confuse javascript and ES5. With ES6 many things work out pretty well, and typescript makes things even better.

But ES5 and before was just fucken pain. Context, loops, registering event handlers shit just happened somehow without any binding if not done manually.

Some people hate js because they think it’s cool, some because they are bad at it, some because they have had a bad experience with it and some for whatever other reason they come up with.

Either way I ignore them all and choose to make my own opinion.

Js does have some bad examples and libraries as most have, but its also a vary visible language since its mostly out in the open, any one can see the code.

This means that more bad code is visible.

Other languages are mostly compiled or run in the background and the public example are either open source or tutorials which have had a lot of scrutiny chipping away most of the rough edges.

If you where to look at the real source if many programs I bet you would find plenty of really bad examples, just look at the dailywtf website ;)

@Voxera Most of the time it's not the language that's bad, it's the Developers

@theabbie ...as is world poverty, but we don't extol the virtues of that.

JS is popular, sure. But that doesn't make it good.

@AlmondSauce People are jealous of JS as it makes things so easy, It can't compete with other languages but it doesn't need to

@pxeger atleast in web development you don't have any alternative, And, avoid dependencies if possible

@theabbie The floating point memes come from fucking idiots who have no clue how a computer and the binary system actually works, and instead attribute it to JS.

@Fast-Nop They hate it because of lack of data types, but why do we need data types? We don't have any memory or time constraint. It's a good language

@theabbie The floating point issue isn't related to data types or languages. It's inherent in the binary system where no exact representation of decimal fractions like 0.1 is possible.

And we need data types so that you even know what the code means, or else you end up in opaque spaghetti like idiomatic LISP code.

Or you spend hours debugging because there's a typo somwhere in a property name, and a compiler with data types would have complained, but JS just adds the property. Same with new variables.

Those are like skins for Javascript, And, it's better to write it in pure javascript to make something real

@theabbie I don't think anyone in their right mind is jealous of JS...

@AlmondSauce If someone hates something even without using or knowing it completely, it's straight out Jealousy

Because they suck at it.

@hashedram If someone has used other programming languages they are bound to hate Javascript

Cause usually JS second language required, nobody really learns and everyone expects it to work the same way the first language used, when it fails to meet that expectation its time for online shitposting. In general I think JS as a language will be best for prototyping cause all the shit you can mix up quickly using npm, it will not be efficient but it will run good enough, if your idea starts generating mad money you start refactoring

@theabbie are you seriously saying there are no alternatives in web development? Sure, the alternatives compile to JS, but that doesn't mean you have no alternatives in web dev! I don't personally hate JS, but I wouldn't choose to develop with it unless the project was really small, when there are so many good alternatives out there (PHP, Elm, Rust with WASM... and a good score more, choose the fruit that you fancy).

@100110111 I am talking about client-side scripting, and all those UI libraries are JS, Typescript is a thing otherwise there doesn't seem to be any alternative, on server, you have a bunch of alternatives

@theabbie please do your research before making such ridiculous claims

@100110111 The research shows that javascript is the only way to talk to the web browser, If anything else exists too, it has to be converted to Javascript. If you are using something built over javascript it counts as javascript. Please let me know if there is any other scripting language which works with browsers.

@theabbie whoa, what logic. Unbelievable. However you want to look at it. I still would never ever write anything prod destined in pure JS. Maybe there's a case where that could be the best option, but I can't see it. Like why do it, if you can write bullet proof code in Elm and let the compiler do the hard work?

@100110111 If you have to learn a new language just for web anyways then why not learn pure JS, it would be more future proof

Inconsistent AF

Weak typing

@theabbie vbscript, but it died with IE.

@C0D4 Exactly, there is no alternative

@iiii Shouldn't that be an advantage, inconsistency is still fine

@theabbie weak typing is a creation of evil. It should not exist anywhere.

@iiii It's useful only when there is a memory constraint, you don't have to care for that in web development, It is also slow but it's perfect for it's use case

@theabbie if one is into web dev, I see absolutely no reason not to learn (pure) JS. I would argue that one would do well to learn pure JS regardless of the frameworks or languages one would use in prod destined projects - because knowing the language your code compiles to will eventually make your life as a dev infinitely much easier. I would kind of want to paraphrase an analogy someone else used in another thread, where driving a car doesn't necessitate you to know how to car works, but the more you know about its inner workings, the easier it is to maintain it or fix it when it breaks (or not get ripped off by someone). I think knowing your JS when doing web dev compares, even if you never had to write a single line of pure JS within the projects you develop.

Also, implicit type conversions together with weak typing is even more evil. And JS is just that.

@iiii JS doesn't interact directly with hardware, browser deals with it, that makes it better

@theabbie nope. Weak typing is not useful for anything. Weak typing is a source of bugs while solving no problems at all.

@iiii I didn't say it's useful, but, it's not bad either

@theabbie if it does not solve any problem and objectively is a source of numerous defects, I guess it's fair to call it a bad thing overall.

@iiii Can you give an example of error that can be caused?

@theabbie I cannot give you a specific example. Haven't worked with JS for a long time.

@theabbie @iiii weak typing is the source of the majority of bugs in prod in web dev... However, while I agree JS is evil (hence writing your prod code in, say, Elm, is better because you can then avoid the pitfalls of JS), I have to say that weak typing can be exploited. I just remembered there are actually a few features in a recent project of ours which rely on weak typing... So it can be useful, but mostly just woeful

@100110111 I would bet that those features exploiting weak typing could be implemented without it without a lot of difficulties. There's probably a reason why JS is (AFAIK) the only major programming language with weak typing.

@theabbie If you really don't know the issues that weak typing can cause, you need to do way more research.

It's arguably weak (and loose) typing that causes *most* of the issues one encounters with JS.

@AlmondSauce If you can't give an example it means you yourself don't know why it's bad and are just defending those so called strongly typed languages

@iiii yeah, you are right. In a perfect world, where deadlines don't exist and projects (and their scopes and their specs) are planned meticulously and immutably, one would probably never have to resort to exploiting weak typing. But when the options are to exploit it and get out functional, tested and bug proof code by the deadline, or refactor a whole bunch of code in order to not have to resort to that and deliver late, sometimes it's ok to choose the first option.

@theabbie I can't decide if you are trolling or never actually written anything in JS... Either you have come across issues due to weak typing, or you have never written anything more complicated than Hello Worlds in pure JS...

@100110111 Weak typing is never a problem if the Developer is not dumb. Strongly typed languages don't allow errors to happen but that's a very naive thing. In short, Stupidity is the main cause of errors not the language.

@theabbie weak typing is a gun pointing downwards. If you know how to use it you will not shoot yourself in the foot. But you would probably prefer a normal gun instead.

@iiii @100110111

@theabbie incorrect. Any idiocy can be overcome with enough experience, but that does not mean it is worth it. Use proper tools to do a proper job.

@iiii As if those so called strongly typed languages don't have any errors

@theabbie use Elm => virtually zero runtime errors (the compiler makes pretty damn sure devs don't leave stupid mistakes into codebase that could lead to runtime errors). But you can leave bugs lying around with any lang. But why make your life as a dev delibaretly harder than it has to be? Why not use something that lets you concentrate on writing the code and helps you mitigate errors? Exactly why I said LEARN JS, but one would be dumb not to utilize something safer in prod projects...

// EDIT: Elm is here as an example. There are other options, but it serves to make a point...

@theabbie Exactly. If someone has used static typing and they try javascript, they're going to bitch about it like little wee children eventhough dynamic typing has its own purposes and advantages.

@hashedram static typing is not the opposite of weak typing. Your statement is just wrong.

Dynamic typing is okay.
Weak typing is the root of evil.

@theabbie I am with you bro

@Afrographics Thanks Bro, These Dumb Programmers won't understand How awesome JS is, Let them Burn

@theabbie as @iiii pointed out, dynamic typing is not JS' problem per se, but the lack of type safety. Sure, you can safeguard against it by typechecking absolutely every case where there is even a remote possibility the incoming data may not be of wanted type (or may be null or undefined), but why reinvent the wheel?

Because they read about some arrogant l337 asshole on hacker news bitching about the language comparing it to his language stack even though he works in a completely different side of the field.

I swear, language wars are about the most retarded shit ever, right there with OS and editor wars. Like who gives a flying fuck?

There is a difference between knowing when to pick a tool, like for example when to go with Node vs .Net Core for a web application, Tensorflow or Keras etc etc vs just completely shitting on tech because it is either the pop thing to do, lack of knowledge, which usually means that someone didn't care to learn, fuck something up and decided to bitch.

Fuck them, learn how to use your tools well. And this is coming from someone's whose main languages are hated fucking everywhere.

@AleCx04 You are the real MVP man

@AleCx04 amen. I don't get language hate either. And if somebody reads my comments here as hating JS, well, their problem. Horses for courses, or how does the saying go? Equally as I frown upon language hate, I despise opinions on general language superiority. JS is not the best language for web development, Python is not the best language, neither is nothing else. The only way to have even a shot at saying some language is the best for something is defining a specific enough case... That said, if I was told right now to choose the tools to full-stack dev a web app without being given specifics, I'd choose either PHP or Rust+WASM. If someone told me I'd be doing front only, I'd choose Elm. Pure JS would never be an option.

@100110111 reading briefly about Elm. Seems like a nice option. Never heard of it previously as I'm not working with anything close to web development (thanks to the gods).

@theabbie Dude, you are clearly very inexperienced. I would strongly advice you to actually understand and learn statically typed languages. It's easy to shrug off features and paradigms as dumb, overly complex and unnecessary but that just makes you look like a fool.

So here's my challenge: Take the next few months and properly learn Rust. Until you have fully understood it you may not call anyone dumb for dissing weak typing as you are clearly the one not understanding basic computer science problems. Once you are proficient in Rust and still think weak typing is good (not a chance in hell that would ever be the case), THEN and ONLY THEN are you allowed to make any statement about the robustness and usefulness of said feature

@100110111 Weak typing is unnecessary because you can explicitely convert between types which is better in every way though. I don't see how weak typing would help with strict deadlines when you have to debug the shit out of your code because some weird implicit conversion is happening somewhere

I will use async ... Hooo no native for loop await you got fuk

@jak645 bless you. The common flu or covid?

@12bitfloat I am sorry for calling anyone Dumb, that was surely exaggerated, But, Javascript (atleast on client-side) is an interpreted language, So, all errors except syntax error can only occur during runtime, and it does not directly interact with hardware so data types are unnecessary for JS, And calling JS bad just because you don't like it because it's not like other languages is bad. And Regarding the potential errors, if you write carefully in JS it works perfectly, I am not some naive JS developer whining here, I have done projects in JS and that's why I am saying. I never said JS is superior but the arguments against it are completely invalid.

@12bitfloat I'm still convinced OP is trolling...

@100110111 I am against unnecessary hatred towards JS, If you had actually worked enough on JS to call it bad I would have understood but You are just reacting on Rumours. Weakly typed argument is not even valid as it is an interpreted language. You are just defending languages you like.

@theabbie explain to me like I was 5 years old how come JS not communicating with the hw makes data types irrelevant? Some of your arguments are nonsensical and it seems to me like you're either trolling or have no idea what you're talking about...

@theabbie and again, to clarify: I don't hate JS. It's one of the main 3 languages I work with on a daily basis, and happily so, even though I often think there would be better alternatives. But you don't always get to choose when on corporate time.

@100110111 Apart from detecting errors early the other use of data types is to allocate space in advance. In Client side JS that's handled by Browser, It is not required to be done by JS because JS is compiled by browser, internally Browser may use data types and allocation and other stuff. That's not an argument against it.

@theabbie What does it matter if it's an interpreted language if the basic design is bad. Dynamic and weak typing lead to slow, buggy, fragile, boilerplate heavy, hard to understand and reason about spaghetti code. The fact that JS runs in a browser makes it WORSE not better. When you are already in a constrained environment your language should be as fast as possible by design

@12bitfloat How is it Buggy? Even in other languages compiler can only detect potential errors based on data types, it's not a magic wand predicting all errors. And if code is written carefully such that nothing unexpected can happen, it won't be buggy be it any language or JS. It runs in Browser because it was made for that, There is Node.js which is more like traditional languages. It might be buggy but it ultimately depends on Developer.

@theabbie whether the code comes out buggy or not is always more or less down to the developer, no matter the language (tho some languages have compilers that help to mitigate the more stupid errors), but that doesn't change the matter that in essence JS is designed poorly, and due to its inherent quirks, an easy target to make fun of. A lot of times the fun or frustration of developing with a language does come down to the debugging experience - and that in JS is is far inferior to any other language I have any experience with.

@theabbie JavaScript code is buggy because it lays the burden of basic validation, parameter checking, etc. on YOU the programmer which is annoying and (as any human based task) error prone.
A static language may not prevent all bugs but compared to a dynamic language it will prevent MANY bugs. Especially a good type system and error handling like Rust's intuitively allows designing abstractions that prevent invalid state. So static typing actually can help with preventing logic errors.

Also stop right now with the tired "oh just don't make any mistakes and your code will work". It's the same dumb argument C and C++ devs have been pushing for years.
Newsflash: You WILL make mistakes because you are HUMAN. 70% of Microsoft's bugs are because of memory unsafety. Yeah turns out their programmers aren't magicians and DO make mistakes.
That's why a language that allows errors is worse than one which prevents errors.

@100110111 JS originated in a very unusual way, that's why, But it has surely improved a lot, Everyone is hating it like it has caused billion dollar loss. It's working great and Stackoverflow survey shows that employers love it too. And even if error is caused at runtime, any app is distributed to users after thorough testing, So, It will be detected early. It's not necessary to hate it so much. And, It's not going anywhere until internet exists.

@theabbie interpreted language does not have to be weakly typed or have no sanity checks at all. Types are not for the hardware, as hardware understand basically only very few types: integers, floats, bytes. Types are for structure and sanity of code.

Example: Lua is an interpreted language and it has types and strong typing.

@12bitfloat If you leave testing code for the end, errors are bound to happen, If code is working now, no magic will cause error in future. I still believe it's unnecessary hatred.

@12bitfloat don't compare javascript to C and C++ 🤣

@theabbie Yes, JavaScript was designed very poorly and sadly established itself as the main language for the web. I don't know how that's supposed to be a good thing?
My hate for JavaScript is completely valid as I'm a perfectionist that hates deliberately bad things with a passion. But I don't just hate JavaScript, I harshly criticize most programming languages besides Rust (which is near perfect; fight me).

Testing, again, isn't an excuse for a bad language. If the language was better you would have to write less tests, or rather the quality of tests would be much better because you wouldn't be testing arbitrary issues imposed on you by the language itself.

And we finally have an alternative: WASM.
But even if we didn't, saying JS is good because it's big is a appeal to authority which is a fallacy and thus an invalid argument.

@iiii Sorry. C and C++ ain't saints either though :P

@iiii Give me a short and sweet example of a code which can only be done in a strongly typed language, or, is atleast easy to do in a strongly typed language and incredibly hard on weakly typed language. JS doesn't spoonfeed developers and lets them deal with data type the way they want. If you think that's wrong maybe you are used to writing bad code.

@theabbie "...And if code is written carefully such that nothing unexpected can happen..."

No offense intended, it feels like you're either trolling or have never written code. Which I know you have. But this is an impossible standard to meet. e.g. I've had libraries change a property name on me. In JS, this will just silently error at runtime rather than at compile time. That's not due to me "not writing my code carefully".

@12bitfloat I'm not saying that either. They are not perfect. But they are in different league anyway.

@theabbie how would that validate anything or be a valid argument?

@theabbie Javascript is turing complete, big fucking deal.
Brainfuck is also turing complete, that doesn't mean it's a good programming language.

And stop with the stupid, elitist arguments that you're "just a better programmer".
Judging by your dislike for static type systems I can guarentee that you are a pretty mediocre programmer.
Because guess what. Types aren't optional. Dynamic systems just hide them from you. But good architecture still relies on types, so if you don't or can't reason about them then you're not a good programmer

@theabbie this thread hasn't been about hating or not hating JS for the last 50+ comments, haven't you noticed? It's mostly been about countering your flawed argumentation. JS is a poorly designed language, much due to its history. Due to the same history it is popular and will most likely be around and thee most used web dev lang for decades to come. That, however doesn't mean it is a good language in any shape or form. I wholeheartedly agree that hatred toward JS (or any other language, framework etc. {e.g. I think Angular is a piece of crap but I don't hate it for it} for that matter) is unnecessary and stupid, especially as you can turn it this way: BECAUSE JS is so poorly designed, it has sparked the development of better options for web dev (e.g. Elm, that I've been bringing up repeatedly as an example). For that, I love JS.
P.S., I'm mostly arguing with you because I don't like your attitude.

@iiii All your arguments ultimately lead to bugs during runtime. If there is an argument that proves that there are things which are impossible in JS but possible otherwise it would imply that JS is bad. Yeah, bugs happen, during compilation or runtime, Humans can cause errors and other languages are less prone to errors, That makes JS more difficult, But someone above said even an idiot can code in JS. If it's more prone to bugs, idiots should be more prone to errors too. But the whole internet is not an idiot and web is running perfectly. Why isn't web crashed if it's so prone to errors. That means web developers are more skilled than other Developers as they can make a dangerous language work.

@theabbie Are you not reading my comments or are you actually just dumb. I literally dismantled everything you said about twice on average by now

@theabbie as other guy have said just a mere possibility to write any code does not make any language better or worse.

@theabbie .... you're making less sense by each comment.

@theabbie and the majority of internet users are near to idiots. That's just a fact after internet became widespread among normies.

@100110111 I started out politely, But people who have never used JS started saying Crap, I don't say about other languages because little knowledge is a dangerous thing, I know JS and have done projects, It is not that bad, It's not hatred it's jealousy

@theabbie The only reason I'm not friendly anymore is because you're ignoring me as you either don't understand or can't refute my arguments

And I hate snakes that can't admin they're wrong

Also, no one is jealous of JS. It's a mediocre language

I still don't understand why some people think this sentence requires a question mark?

Another thing I dislike about JS is readability. Which of these is easier to read?:

Guid id = GetId();

or

let id = GetId();

In the JS example, id might be a string, it might be an int, it might be a bool, it might be a custom object such as a UUID...... I just have no idea without going and reading the code or trying it. TypeScript solves some of that, but we're not talking about TypeScript here.
I don't think anyone here actually hates JS. But people are telling you what they don't like about it, and you're just responding by insulting their skill level.

@theabbie what @12bitfloat said. I'm too lazy to check where and why this developed into the kind of thread we have at our hands at this point, but when you start ignoring the contra arguments and keep throwing invalid arguments back (and the same ones even), it usually turns into this. Besides, everyone has the right to hate a language. I don't understand hate in general, but as programming languages go, JS is an easy target due to the factors pointed out by several commenters and so far completely ignored by you. As far as I can tell, Rust is the closest we have come to the perfect general purpose programming language so far (from web to potentially linux kernels and you name it), and I think the languages will keep evolving further. JS as a language has many of the same problems like e.g. C++ - trying to maintain backwards compatibility and not introducing breaking changes while trying to evolve has lead to a hot mess. Which is why I think PHP has come farther from 5 to soon 8 than JS has come in the same span of time...

@MySlugLikesSalt No one said why they hate it, they are saying why it's a bad language and why no one should use it

@electrineer
I had a similar thought, but have basically become immune to grammatical violations.

@theabbie no one said no one should use it. But it's not a good language.

@100110111 C++ 2.0 should be created with ditching all the backwards compatibility. Will make a much better language than it is now in the latest standard.

@theabbie Who said that? Thinking it's bad and thinking no one should use it are two completely different things. I use JS all the time. That doesn't mean I like it. It also doesn't mean I think no one should use it. There are different tools for different jobs. That doesn't mean the tools are well-designed.

@12bitfloat Why would you hate a language that's evolving. It was not so privileged like other languages. You are telling we should boycott it rather than hoping an improvement. It has improved so much in past years, It will work on it's flaws. And I have worked on quite serious projects with JS, I never faced any problem, In future if at any point I feel that I was wrong I will personally apologize to everyone in this thread, But for Now, I think, and it's my opinion so it can't be wrong, That JS does not deserve such hatred.

@theabbie "opinion can't be wrong"
That's where you're wrong, kiddo 🤣

@electrineer That's some psychological sarcasm. I hate it.

@electrineer In my mind, at least, it's more of an invitation to discussion than the grammatically-correct ".". Sorta like "Ok." vs. "Ok?"

@iiii opinions are thoughts, If I feel JS is not bad, how can I be wrong, Thoughts aren't wrong, Facts are, I am trying too hard to be polite

@MySlugLikesSalt Using a language without liking it is just manual labour

@theabbie as @MySlugLikesSalt just said, there are reasons to use JS. But because it sucks on so many levels, rare is the experienced polyglot dev who would choose it if the had free reign. Many work on corporate time, on applications where they had no say in the language choice, or have to think of possible skill sets of the devs that are going to maintain the codebase, or the other devs working with them in the project (where JS is the most obvious choice as web devs are expected to know it). There are reasons to use JS, but the reason is never because it's a good language.

@100110111 To prove that a language is bad you have to give an example of a situation where it just can't work. There is no task that is impossible in JS but possible in some other language. Assuming that It can cause bugs is not a valid argument to prove that it's a bad language.

@theabbie that's a logic fallacy.

@theabbie there is no need to give an example of a case where JS just can't work. There have been countless perfectly valid arguments from several commenters detailing how JS is not comparatively a good language. However, not giving an example of a case where JS just doesn't work doesn't prove that JS is a good language, either. And I don't really see why anybody would need to prove either way, anyway.

@theabbie ALL turing complete languages, so almost ALL programming languages, can solve ALL problems.

That doesn't mean some languages can't be better or worse than others

@100110111 There must be a situation where JS, though possible, would suck. Atleast give such an example.

@12bitfloat Which is the best language, in your opinion? assuming that there are no possible bugs, what makes an application written in different language superior than one written in JS

@theabbie NaN != NaN

@iiii users don't code, developers do, Users have been idiots since eternity. A buggy language can't be working since so long.

@theabbie You asked @12bitfloat, but I already mentioned readability. That's huge. I also mentioned strong typing. I also mentioned a library changing a property name and breaking your JS at runtime. These are all examples.

@MySlugLikesSalt infinity != infinity, 0/0 != 0/0, That's mathematics, NaN could be from anything, why would they be equal

@theabbie you've said "the internet" not "web developers". mind your words

@theabbie it is perfectly possible to write equally good web apps with virtually any language suitable for web development. Which is also why I don't see the need to give you concrete examples. The question remains why would you make yourself go through the pain and extra effort to write a web app in JS when you have options around that both make the development process easier and less painful for you as a developer while also providing type safety and possibly other benefits?

@MySlugLikesSalt In your example, Developer could write a comment specifying data type if he cares so much about readability. That's not some valid argument. And, since JS doesn't have data types, it doesn't need to be like that.

@theabbie and then the type changes and comment becomes not only irrelevant but dangerously wrong.

try again

@iiii That still means same thing, if it's running fine, it can't be bad

@iiii If there is a type change that would be because it's required, Those who know JS can understand it, It's always those superior people who feel alienated

@theabbie So I'm now supposed to comment everything? That's not good. And it really does matter, whether JS has data types or not. If I call a library's "getID()" function, I need to know what sort of return value I'm looking at. Again, that's just readability. It doesn't mean that JS doesn't work. It just means that it's not as good.

@theabbie I like this. This is exactly like arguing with one of our junior devs. Go on, try again, with a valid argument and no logical fallacies this time.

@MySlugLikesSalt That's exactly what documentation is for. Read the documentation of whatever library you are using. And what it returns is not important, what you want it to be is important. It can be used as anything.

@theabbie yup, you're proving yourself as an unexperienced novice more and more by your statements. Go on. Tell us how you've created a complex system with only yourself as the only dev and how that thing was flawless and how no bugs were created by you despite all the hidden underwater rocks JS is hiding under its seemingly simple and easy to write code.

@theabbie What?? 1) just because it was changed does not automatically mean it was required. There's no consortium sitting there monitoring everybody's library changes. And 2) even if it was required, it still breaks my code.

@iiii You can checkout everything I have done, My profile has everything you need. Now, listen carefully. If you define an integer variable, and give it something else you get error. This is a good thing as it was caught early. But, If you know that it's integer and give it integer value everywhere, it's still fine. Bugs can happen and can be fixed, Testing is not a joke. It's not more prone to Bugs, Developers are.

@theabbie So you are admitting that I need to go find documentation, as opposed to seeing the type right in the code? Sounds to me like it's more inconvenient, then... And yes. It really does matter what it is. Because when I want to convert it to whatever I want it to be, I need to know what it is first.

@theabbie go on, try again.

@MySlugLikesSalt If the ID returns string and you want integer, just convert it, If it returns integer and you convert it to integer, it still works. If you want integer, why bother what type it returns, just convert it.

@theabbie go on, try again. I'm still waiting to see the first valid argument in this thread that JS is not a relatively bad language.

@100110111 Now you're acting like I am giving an interview and you're the interviewer. This discussion ain't going anywhere.

Ego: 1 Truth: 0

@iiii that's exactly what someone who's jealous of those who can use weak typing would say

@hashedram Finally someone to support me, These guys are bullying us. I can't fight alone.

@theabbie unless you're dumb as a boot the only reason you are still arguing here is that your ego has been bruised. If you want to convince anyone that JS is a good language you'll have to start giving valid arguments. I'm trying to help you here.

@hashedram @theabbie lmao

@100110111 ... or accepting that maybe JS isn't so good after all. But that would require an open mind and that's boring

@theabbie btw, why would anybody be jealous about JS?

@MySlugLikesSalt That's where you are wrong, you don't need original data type to convert it, atleast in JS, ex. parseInt(x) converts to integer whatever x js, if it's string, then integer, and if it's already integer, it stays integer

@12bitfloat I don't think OP can, because in their case:

Ego: 1, Truth: 0

@100110111 Because it's easy and you won't be able to brag about your coding skills

@theabbie I specifically mentioned custom data types for this reason. If the library returns an array of bytes, I'm gonna convert that differently than if it returned an int. I never once said I'm talking about just ints vs. strings. I'm well aware of how easy that is.

@theabbie wait what?

@hashedram oh, now we have a psychologist professional here. Tell me more!

@100110111 The greatest accomplishment today has been keeping us all here for this long. Gotta say though, I'm finding it intriguing in a weird way.

@theabbie That makes no sense. Why would people be jealous over a language they could easily learn themselves?
Wouldn't people rather be jealous over complex languages they don't understand?

(Not implying anything, wink wink)

@12bitfloat Example, To prove that a given student is bad at math, you have to give it a problem and if he can't solve it while other kids of his age can. If he's able to solve all problems, you can't say he is bad at math because the sums might have a bug. JS is different, there is no scale to determine which feature is good, which is bad. It's prone to bugs, You Don't want to use it, You think you can mess up. If someone can write good code in JS, why are you trying to convince him that he is a loser if he uses JS.

@12bitfloat I really thoroughly enjoy this conversation because it's going somewhere with the exact same velocity than any argument with one of our juniors. However, the fun of our little office spat gets shadowed by 1) it affects our work, and I'd rather be writing less shite code, not arguing why it should not be shite, and 2) the convo usually ends by their senior exploding on them and giving a detailed few hour lecture/rant why they are wrong... yet the junior still stand their ground. It's an ego thing, I think. Or a generational thing, no respect whatsoever. This one is fun though, because it's out of office context

@100110111 You asked why would anyone be Jealous, I answered that

@MySlugLikesSalt I will give Justice to Javascript that it deserves, It's not guilty, It won't be punished.

@MySlugLikesSalt I really want to see how absurd this can go.

@theabbie I would love an answer with even a hint of sanity.

@100110111 sounds like you must have a stash of popcorn under your work desk.

@theabbie I'm sorry, the execution has already been scheduled for sunup and the messenger birds departed a fortnight ago.

@theabbie I'm not trying to convince anyone not to use JS, if you like it then go ahead and use it. I'm just arguing that it's a bad language -- which it is.

I also disagree that there is no "scale" for the quality of programming language features. There clearly is. A language can be fast, robust, intuitive, easy to learn, etc.
And JavaScript does have it's good points. It just also has a lot of negative points

@100110111 Being senior doesn't imply being correct

@iiii oh no, it's on the desk always ready to be consumed. And if I run out, I send a chat msg to one of the lovely ladies at sales who makes the perfect popcorn and she'll replenish my stash.

@theabbie It literally implies being correct.

@theabbie you are right there. They have been wrong on many occasions as well. We're talking about arguments where it's the junior vs everyone else and the facts clearly indicate the junior in question is wrong.

@12bitfloat Saying that something is bad partially means convincing to not use it. If someone extremely new to programming reads this convo, he will assume JS is the worst language in history. If you are professional at JS, you will never have a bug because of data types. Those who cause such bugs are people doing JS just to get job done. A jack of all trades, masters none.

@theabbie No, he will assume that JS has its faults which make valid reasons to use another language. And he will have assumed correctly.

@MySlugLikesSalt seniority does not mean being always correct, though. It does imply that they should be and are more likely to be correct more often than not. :)

@100110111 noice

@100110111 Everyone can be wrong if you give arguments that sound right, How many of you here are ready to admit they completely know JS and still hate it. Please raise hands.

@100110111 Right, and if he'd said it doesn't mean they are correct then I'd have agreed. But if you wanna use the word "imply", then it most certainly does.

@theabbie and he will not be very wrong. JS is the worst among the mainstream languages.

Nuff said

@theabbie Sure, and can you raise your hand that you completely know one single strongly-typed language and still think weak typing is better?

@theabbie if you're a professional JS dev your code will never have bugs? Much wow, such wow. I don't even know where to start... oh yes: I have my doubts about the existence of a professional dev who never writes buggy code. You are implying they are not human, as to err is human.

@theabbie Genuine question: what languages have you worked with extensively besides JavaScript?

@iiii Don't forget PHP... and Python

@theabbie come to think of it, are you the junior dev I've been talking about? You have the same opinion and same arguments about JS as they have... though theirs is more contra better languages and better practices than pro JS etc

front end and back end with JS are great. But abominations like electron drive me insane.

@100110111 That's why there are zero vulnerabilities in the Linux Kernel, Windows RDP, Apache, Nginx, OpenSSL, all the browsers, pretty much all C/C++ libraries, etc.

Intel must also be hiring real scrubs considering the very easy mistakes they made with speculative execution side channel vulnerabilities

/s

@iiii JS is the least-known mainstream language you know and you don't want to know it because you think it's not good based on things you heard from other people like you. Saying JS is worst language while knowing only few languages completely is what we call jealousy not hatred.

@theabbie No, because it's just a bad language. Get it into your thick skull

Also you're one to talk considering JavaScript is the ONLY language you know...

@100110111 Yes you won't have bugs that were caused only because JS is weakly typed. You will have all other errors like normal people, but you won't blame that on JS and admit it that it was your fault

@theabbie I'd still like you to answer my question: With which other languages, besides JS, have you worked extensively? Because it sounds to me like you're doing exactly what you're accusing others of doing (speaking out of inexperience), all while making crazy assumptions about their language knowledge, etc.

EDIT: Before you make assumptions about my knowledge, I have years of experience with JS and C#, a custom language called CRAM at my old job, and a little bit of Kotlin, Swift, Rust, Java, C++, Go, and Python.

@theabbie You have no frame of reference AT ALL to compare against. You claim JavaScript is good and great yet you don't know any other language and thus can't judge how much better or worse they are compared to JS

@MySlugLikesSalt Everybody listen, I only know JS completely, And have worked extensively with only JS. Now, If your argument is that I can't say JS is not bad because I know only JS, it's wrong. Because, If I master in JS my whole life and create a JS revolution, that won't stop me from defending JS. Like you have little knowledge about JS but are whining about it, I can have little knowledge about other languages and still praise JS

@theabbie so which other languages do you have even moderate experience with?

Oh and wait, did you say JS is the least mainstream of mainstream languages? So by that you mean that Python and JS are the only mainstream languages, if you base that on some Google Trends graphs or the like?

@12bitfloat You hate python too? That was the only thing I wanted to here. Thank you. This is a proof that bad languages are more popular. I kinda hate python too, Not because it's bad, because I don't know it while everyone else does. That explains this whole argument.

@12bitfloat php is the second one (php 5 specifically). Python is okay. Could be better but okay.

@theabbie Read my edit. I don't have "little experience" with JS. I have years, and given my age I'd bet money that the others here have even more experience than me. You asked why people don't like it, and when people tell you why, you just ignore it. You are unable to understand the strengths of strong typing, yet are trying to say weak typing is better.

@theabbie you're saying such bold statements as if you know who am i. try again kiddo

@theabbie why do you assume us (as the commenters in this thread) have minimal knowledge of JS? As far as I've followed many and more threads in devRant alone, I am not the only professional JS developer on this thread who knows JS inside and out trying to tell you JS is not a very good language.

@100110111 Suppose a hypothetical JS Developer exists who knows only JS but is professional at it, ie. doesn't have any bug (yes, such devs exist) or if has bugs, can fix them. Then, why should he care about your argument of possible bugs. Your whole argument is around that only. Readability and data types lead to that. For him, JS is a Saviour. Should I rephrase my argument as "JS is a good language but the condition is that you need to completely understand it" Now, Let's forget Bugs and start again. Give your arguments.

@theabbie I would not argue pro or contra the qualities of Python or Ruby, exactly because I have zero experience in them. But I do argue that JS is not a very good language exactly because I'm an experienced JS dev (tho very likely far from the most experienced here)..

@100110111 You wanted to see how absurd this could get... I'd say starting all back over from square one is pretty absurd.

@100110111 Those who know JS inside and out Don't talk about bugs because they can be fixed. Let's compete. You said you know JS completely, Let's hire a referee and have a competition, Agree?

@MySlugLikesSalt Couldn't have said it any better

I'm legit reaching the point where I don't even know how to respond. And it's not because the arguments are good.

@100110111 Any language that still exists is a mainstream language. I never said JS is least mainstream, I said @iiii doesn't know JS and doesn't want to, even though it's mainstream

@theabbie So let me get this straight, is this your argument?: "If a language can be used and made to work, it is a good language?"

Because that's what I'm hearing.

@iiii I agree with you that PHP 5 was... Well, how to put it nicely... crap. But I actually like developing using PHP 7. I would never argue it doesn't have it's flaws, but I actually think PHP has evolved into a pretty decent language.

@theabbie Such a hypothecial developer doesn't exist and even if he did, he would have an EASIER time using a BETTER language. How is that so hard to understand?

Just because you can make a bad system function doesn't mean you shouldn't use a better one

@theabbie if any language that still exists is still mainstream, how can JS be both least mainstream and the 2nd most popular language according to e.g. Google Trends? There some conspiracy I'm not aware of?

// Edit: my bad, misread your comment. But I'm pretty sure you said somewhere earlier that JS is the least mainstream of mainstream languages. Also, your definition of mainstream
.
.
.

@MySlugLikesSalt I never said JS is better, It might be the lowest on list of languages, But it's not bad. Being bad means more than being the least best. Just admit it that JS is not as bad as people think it is. It's not best, not even better but not worst. It's just good. Plain and simple good.

@12bitfloat @MySlugLikesSalt @100110111@iiii this entire thread has made me irrationally angry and I cant even comprehend it.

@100110111 that's why i've said that it was php 5 specifically. i've heard good things about php 7

@Bubbles yup. i've given up and just getting some lols out of his statements. guy's hilarious

@theabbie No, going off my experience I'm gonna go with it being bad. If you like it, have a field day. I'm not telling you that you can't enjoy it. But you're not gonna convince me that it's good, because I've used better languages.

@Bubbles I'm so sorry. I had to.

@MySlugLikesSalt This isnt your fault dont worry

@100110111 He said it was the "least-known mainstream", IIRC

@theabbie I will not agree that JS is plain and simply good. It's a better language than some think, and a worse language than many think. But being good or bad in the context of languages is very contextual, and partly a comparison with other languages. And in most cases you can not with good conscience say that JS is a good language.

@MySlugLikesSalt ah, true. Close enough. :p

@MySlugLikesSalt You said you have years of JS experience. If it wasn't your first language, you must have realised early that it's not good enough. You still learned it, Did someone force you? or you didn't have any alternative for Web?
What makes you think that it shouldn't exist. Because this argument is not about it being bad, it's about it being worst. I have years of JS experience too. and It being my first language, has a special place in my heart. Just forget Bugs, I may call myself a professional who doesn't have bugs or can easily fix them. Convince me now Why JS is bad?

@Bubbles sorry :/

@100110111 this is not your fault dont worry lmao

@iiii Prove that I have little knowledge about JS. Not knowing about data types is an excuse as it has nothing to do with JS. The test should be purely about JS. interested?

lmao this fucking guy
This ain't going anywhere but it's oddly fun to be here...

I'm getting strong "The Last Battle", dwarves-thinking-they're-in-the-dark vibes here.

@theabbie Okay, I will check out your GitHub and review your code. Then we'll see how much of a pro you really are

@100110111 JS is not good relative to other languages. Suppose it was the only language. How would you argue that it's a bad language. There is no concept of data type yet, so prove that JS is bad without that.

@theabbie It was what we used at my job. And it's the best tool for the job, sometimes. That doesn't mean it's good. I'm not going to try to convince you that it's bad. There have been hundreds of comments already doing that.

@12bitfloat this amount of popcorn is going to make me gain a lot of weight...

@12bitfloat It's like watching a train crash.

And then it backs up and crashes again. And again. And again.

@MySlugLikesSalt Working means not causing bugs, If JS can create working stuff without bugs, how is it a bad language then. It's not best but being bad means a completely different thing.

@theabbie I'm still trying to decide if you are...
A) 3 years old
B) 5 years old
Cl a troll

@theabbie you having lots or no knowledge about JS doesn't mean anything really. The test is meaningless. The root of the argument is totally in the other plane. And you not understanding that an hour after the argument have started is what i find hilarious.

@12bitfloat Those who code in JavaScript didn't have any problem with it. It is always those who have migrated. Why is it so? There are so many JS enthusiasts who are writing great stuff. If people can write it, it can't be a bad language. Those who are bad at it will always have a hard time.

@theabbie OK. Hypothetical situation. My car gets me to work. However, the A/C doesn't work and my power steering gave out 60 years ago and my tires are dry-rotted and my floor is rusted out and my windshield is cracked and my stereo is stuck playing Baby Shark on repeat and my seat warmers are stuck on high. Is it a good car?

@100110111 Someone here had said, being popular doesn't mean being good. JS is 2nd most popular because of web, I completely agree. And it being least mainstream is implied by the fact that people prefer "Anything but JS"

@MySlugLikesSalt you forgot "it gets you to work without an accident". that's an important bit of his arguments

@theabbie No, it being bad is implied by the fact that people prefer "Anything but JS"

@Bubbles I feel no shame in welcoming you

@MySlugLikesSalt that's probably the most accurate description/analogy on JS I've ever read! I applaud you

@MySlugLikesSalt Then please call it least good not bad.

Bad != least good

Bad means something is wrong. least good means everything else is better. They're not the same thing.

@theabbie No. My car is bad. It's very bad. It is also the least good. But it is bad.

@12bitfloat My ego level went from 0 to 100 today

@iiii No no no if it crashes it can be fixed by a professional. Therefore it doesn't matter.

@theabbie wait wait wait... if it's the least good among the list it just logically implies it is the worst among all the items of the same list. It's logically the same statement.

@12bitfloat Sure, go on, My Github profile is there on my DevRant Profile. I am not a JS artist but it works. I have made stuff, so, go to my portfolio https://theabbie.github.io

@MySlugLikesSalt LMAO

@100110111 Option D) A JS enthusiast who knows only JS

I am that

@iiii If a JS professional says JS ain't bad, it means it isn't

@MySlugLikesSalt @theabbie I like to refer to JS as "not good". Least good would imply that JS was good, which it is not. But I can agree that JS is the least good programming language, or as I'd rather refer to it with the synonym of least good: the worst - which somehow correctly implies that JS is bad.

well... this answers all the questions really

we're witnesses of the duckling syndrome

@theabbie I can tell!

It really shouldn't though, when THIS (https://github.com/theabbie/... ) is the kind of code you write...

@theabbie but if a JS professional says JS is not good, what does that mean?

@MySlugLikesSalt It's a Car, not a 5 star hotel. It's function is to drive. It's doing that. It's not a good car but definitely not a bad car till it's working.

@100110111 I'm good with that. @theabbie Can we all agree, then, that JS is the worst language? We don't need to call it bad. Just the least-good, or "worst".

@theabbie if you knew only bad things in your life, does not imply those bad things are good.

@theabbie please dont welcome to me to this bubble you live in and refuse to look outside of. Trust me, Im good

@12bitfloat oh my gawd, my EYES, MY EYES!

@iiii Not causing accident is 10% Car condition and 90% Driver's skills. This Ratio changes with quality of car, But it's always driver's skills that matters more

@theabbie Well then we'll have to agree to disagree because where I come from we call that a bad car.

@MySlugLikesSalt That's because people believe whatever they read on internet. If somebody told me something wrong during childhood and Everyone agreed I would beleive it. But, crowd is not always true.

@100110111 I gave that analogy, but in a different context

@theabbie Oh wait we're starting in on the car. OK. I'm here for it. Sooooooo

What if my car drifts strongly to the left, meaning that I always have to be counter-steering in order not to crash? Is it bad?

How about if every time I twist the volume knob to exactly 25, my back wheels fall off. Is it a bad car?

@theabbie you being one against a crowd does not make you automatically right as well. Logic error it is.

@MySlugLikesSalt It's basic functionality is driving, it's a good car till it does that

This is unreal. I am dreaming, right? @Bubbles @100110111 @iiii @12bitfloat I just wanna say you guys are great and I've enjoyed our time together, because I believe in about 5 minutes I'm gonna wake up and you all weren't real. This can't be real life. Not this.

@iiii But the fact is no one knows all languages so no one can create such a list. And people hate JS because of peer pressure not because it's bad.

@100110111 Oh boy, you haven't seen anything yet!
Check out his commits. This fucking guy with 27,693 contributions this year! 2849 on ONE day.
500 contributions on his github contrib graph are still the lowest color or green lmao

He basically commits every changed line individually and probably does some other shady shit (contrib bot into private repos...)

He thinks he's the shit with his S rank yet his code looks like THAT lmao

@theabbie But it is performing its core functionality *badly*

@100110111 Least good != not good

bad === not good

@theabbie when it stops driving it ceases being a functional car in the first place. While it still drives it is a functional car (not a good car. a functional one) and it can be evaluated by many parameters of safety and comfort of driving and that evaluation will yield a result of how good the car is.

@12bitfloat Apart from being hardly readable, what is wrong with it?

@theabbie You're right.
JavaScript == least good
AND
JavaScript == not good

@100110111 He is saying that from experience, So, it could be true, But, No one ever said that

@theabbie Apart from not standing, what was wrong with the Twin Towers?

@12bitfloat I find myself in utter lack of words...

@theabbie Everybody here is speaking from experience. And we're saying it's bad.

@MySlugLikesSalt Ah yes, the negotiator,

Worst language < Bad language

What I want is, Good language

Because, Good language > Bad language

@MySlugLikesSalt this has been good indeed. I've even forgotten to go for a smoke the entire duration of this thread! Me, a serial chain smoker!

@iiii But if people who have never seen bad things say it's bad, Why would anyone beleive that?

@theabbie It's completely abusing the idea of a VCS to make yourself look good to other people. That's pretty pathetic

Just to make it clear: The whole of OpenSSL has around 26000 commits and you are asking me what's wrong with 26000 commits when you barely know how to program...

Well, okay lol

@100110111 Hey, I'll start one of these every day if it can help ya lolol

@theabbie then why not switch to a good language if that is what you want?

okay. lets settle the debate about least goodness.

let's assume we have a scale with "worst" being at one end and "best" being on the other. Where does "least good" end and "bad" starts?

I'm genuinely curious.

@theabbie You're not gonna get me to say it's a good language because it is in fact NOT a good language. I'll say it's the least-good language, though. Do you like that better?

@Bubbles You can be a neutral judge in this case. Just declare whether JS is good or bad. There is a 50% chance I may agree with you.

@theabbie also, why not write readable code?