UK/EU Devs: other than healthcare issues, is there any other reason keeping you from going to US? The salaries there are far higher and I've compared the CoL, you still have much more left over.

It's the US

Not sure if the work culture is where I’d thrive in

@lambda123 would that happen in our field though?

@Burgundxyz excessively corporate like how Joshua Fluke shows?

Not just healthcare, you have far fewer social safety nets in general should things fall through - and depending on the job and area where you're coming from / to, CoL sometimes does overpower salary increases, especially if you already have a high paying remote ish job with (for example) a good London salary.

Then of course there's the non-commercial reasons too, mainly the pain of relocating your life, especially if you have a family already.

americans have a weirdly positive view on their own country, most of us are at least aware of the shit we live in

@AlmondSauce Yeah with family it's definitely hard to relocate. I understand CoL can overpower salary, just for Devs I've heard that's rarely the case and the demand in the US is enormous, you don't even have to be in a FAANG company to earn well

US...

To summarize:

- Healthcare
- Patriotism / Racism
- Zero weapon control
- political system is really really fucked up with no chance of improvement
- "incitement of the people" to put it "nicely"
- educational system is fucked
- employment laws are fucked

Every country has it's problems - no matter which, no matter where.

But the US is - depending on country - like an accumulation of the worst...

If you live isolated and self sustained, it might not be the worst choice - but self sustaining is sth that ends at a certain age...

I dunno why people love the US...

Some countries of the US seem saner than the others - but overall, their system is simply fucked beyond comparison.

@darksideofyay bc its still better than 90% of the world? Some yall never seen actually shitty countries before and it shows.

Regarding Cost of Living aka CoL.

You should include that as soon as you loose your job, you can only rely on your savings...

As the laws are very "mushy mushy"… an employer can easily fire you for misconduct, meaning you'll end up with no welfare at all.

@pandasama Meh. as someone who’s lived in both sides of the world, i just prefer the little things here more. that’s just me

@Burgundxyz yeah I can get that, personally just think about this a lot and wondered what everyone else is content with

@darksideofyay I find there's those sort of people wherever we go

@Stuxnet i live in brazil, trust me, it's plenty shitty

edit.: still wouldn't move to the us tho

@IntrusionCM See I think about all this but then also wonder how most innovation and the best universities in the world remain in the US. Given all these issues, why is it the US that has the best research, salaries and advancement (or maybe I'm assuming stuff from what I've seen online and could be wrong)

@Stuxnet Honestly given the sort of person I am, I'd rather live in a shitty country if I could be rich and have a house without going into debt

@IntrusionCM I just wonder how frequent this is for Devs though, US in general seems extremely secure job wise for devs

@pandasama why are salaries high in the US? Well, is that really true? Some salaries are indeed higher, but many are far lower.

In The Netherlands when you lose your job, you'll get two years of pay compensation of 70% of your salary.
After the two years if you still don't have a job, you will get some financial aid. It's not a lot, but enough to live on (barely). This social security has a cost and it's generally the employers and high earners that pay for this.

So having an employee that makes less than one in a US equivalent role may just be as expensive to the employer

@pandasama

Well... I'm not active in the research sector so I don't know if the US is really as good as u claim.

But from my experience, here's a simple metaphor....

Pressing out a lemon requires great strength. Unless you take a rolling pin, carefully roll it over the lemon and munch it's insides without hurting the outer shell. Then you can juice it pretty easily.

That's how modern capitalism works.

Adapt to whatever standard the juicer (employer) proclaims, add some benefits and outlook of great perspective (rolling pin), then people will believe they have a chance despite being drained of their juice (life force).

Problem: People will loose their ability to work.

Easy solution: Replace the people. Aka human resources.

Ah sorry. I need to put it more political correct: "XY, your work is not up to par, you lack the necessary competition for this company, we are sad to let you go".

@darksideofyay I lived in Mexico, shit was really shitty. Trust me, I would rather jump out of a skyscraper than go back.

Or live in Brazil for that matter.

@pandasama also btw, I don't want to live in a country where if I had a child, it would have to do active shooter drills in class.
There are so many guns. It's insane.

And healthcare? It's top notch, but only if you're rich.

@Geoxion true higher benefits do warrant costs to higher earners, job security benefits such as this are quite good as a safety net for sure. Variance in salary is there for surez I just think US having many remote Dev roles might be advantageous to live in low CoL area with a decently high salary

I can't believe nobody has mentioned the tipping culture yet.

@IntrusionCM that's an interesting metaphor thanks. My general claims on US research I guess are just based on the big companies there, and how the big tech companies (particularly the FAANG) all originate from there

@Geoxion but surely I see so many children fine in the US right? Like I hear about gun violence, but I'm in London and there's so much knife crime, even guns are starting here, someone I know had their phone robbed at gunpoint. These make news headlines, but the probability of this happening to me is low, and I find it might be the same in the US

@nibor Oh right I've heard about that from US friends, kinda crazy ngl but they seem to be fine and used to it

@Geoxion I saw worse things concerning guns in Mexico than I did in the U.S. And to them is practically impossible to purchase weapons. Just a couple of months back a border city went into Call of Duty mode and all hell broke loose. Shit happens there all the time, but it is Mexico shit is so common and saying that a lot of civilians died in the crossfire is not nearly as interesting as saying that some weirdo went on a shooting rampage in the U.S.

Women are kidnapped all the time there, just for being....well...women. I sometimes entertain the idea of how hard would it be for them to pick up a girl walking home at night if she had a glock 19 at hand tbh.

I wouldn't go back to Mexico tbh.

@Geoxion there it is the good ole “guns bad reeee” retarded shit.

I have multiple and never once shot a person. The guns havent shot anyone on their own. You know why? Because it’s not a fuckin gun issue. It’s we have too many retards issue.

@pandasama There are lots of things to like about living in here. But the same thing can be said about many other places. Every country has the good and the bad.

TBH, most of the things that you see on TV are way more sensationalized than what you see in real life. I have taken the time to live in different states other than Texas, and there are things I like and dislike about all of them really.

We are not as divided as the media makes it out to be, I usually believe that case to be the "loud minority". No we are not all racist, no we don't go around with a gun holstered on the hip (and I live in Texas), shit could be improved (guns, healthcare, education) but it is honestly not as bad as people make it out to be.

As an alien I do not have the protections of fourth amendment (against unreasonable searches and seizures). I could be searched or wiretapped without a warrant and I would not have any legal basis against it.

I like holiday. Americans seem to think work is more important.

@AleCx04 For sure, thank you. Everywhere definitely has its own problems, just pros sometimes outweigh the cons depending on what your goal in life is I guess

@sbiewald Oh, damn I guess I need to lookup all the shit immigrants don't have the right of there

@atheist I've seen 22+ days for Devs in US and UK, or is that low and I'm losing out haha

@pandasama uk is usually 25 plus bank holidays (so ~33 total). Dunno bout EU. A lot of Americans I've spoken to tend to work longer days and take less holiday.

@Stuxnet ok, so guns aren't the issue, right?

Well, then surely there's no problem with strict gun registration and a required psychological test before you can buy a gun, right? Make sure that everybody who owns a gun has to lock it in a vault at home? Background checks? Waiting period?

Any sane person would be able to pass these criteria. That'd make sure no stupid people have access to guns.

But no, the US isn't doing that. Only thoughts and prayers and thoughts and prayers endlessly in a cycle with each new shooting

@Stuxnet bold thing to say soon after uvalde.

we don't have nearly as many shootings as you guys, and our organized crime and the police are the only ones with easy access to guns. shit's crazy in Rio, but Rio is Rio

@AleCx04 I'm not saying Brazil isn't bad, but you'd have to be blind and deaf to ignore that we passed the US in many fronts. we have free healthcare, free colleges, gun control, popular vote, all things americans never stop complaining about. hell, we even got gay marriage before you guys, and we have a catholic majority

@atheist Hmm true bank holidays are a big plus

@darksideofyay Bold of you to choose getting shot in the weekly gang related shootouts over the much rarer mass events here.

@Geoxion 90% of our worst gun crime cities have the strictest laws

It’s kinda like criminals dont fucking follow the law in the first place.

@pandasama All in all, you need to live in several countries to find out wether you like it or not.

For me, money plays a far fewer role.

Money doesn't stick. Happiness does.

No matter where, if you are not happy with what you'll do for a living, your life sucks TM.

Money can't buy happiness.

So that should come first.

I really recommend going for 2 week vacation to several countries... Just to gain some insight, talk to locals, etc.

By vacation I don't mean the tourist spots :-)

@darksideofyay popular vote? y'all just as corrupt if not more as we are, what good does popular vote does in situations like these? Last time I checked, was it seventh or sixth in crime rate index, but it is good you have gun control? I do like your healthcare, and colleges. Not going to lie, I am not calling your country a bad place to be.

Just saying that I would still not live there, or Mexico, even at gun point, which is kinda lol because it is not like it could happen now is it? Gun control and all?

All jokes aside, I got nothing against you. Take it all in good gun, I mean fun.

@IntrusionCM Hmm yeah should visit. Tbh as much as people say, money is the bare minimum to have the privilege to even achieve happiness, if you internally convince yourself, the world and the people in it will constantly remind you how the lack of money makes anyone suffer. I see the housing crisis and rising inflation and I'm sure for everyone now money is a big priority

@UnicornPoo Fair enough, I guess it's different once you're settled in

@Stuxnet brazil is a pretty big country (5th worldwide). we don't have gang crime where i live. like i said, rio is rio, you can't imagine the entire country to be the same 🤷

@pandasama the number of rants I've seen on here about crippling loneliness vs the number of rants about not enough money makes me call bullshit on your claim that money is fundamental. Granted, we're in an industry that pays above average.

@atheist Yeah perhaps I underestimate the impact of loneliness or leaving everything behind, personally moved to UK from another lower country so been used to it, I mostly did come here for money anyways, priority most definitely varies. The world is becoming too expensive though, people with dependants or responsibilities even if they were fine before might see the lack of rising wages against the rate of inflation as an incentive to value money more

@pandasama let the people talk.

Many people have forgotten how high their standard of living is.

Especially here in Germany a very sad topic.

While you need money without a doubt, you can define how much you really need.

In my opinion that's the trouble most people have.

They strive for something absurd because they want to buy everything, only to later realize they don't use it.

Not really a fan of the "minimalism" movement, but my luxuries consist of coffee, good food and that's it.

I live for rent cheaply, outside the city, I'll usually bike or use public transport, no car.

I'm happy with it.

But yes, some people will stick their nose in my life and tell me they couldn't live without a car.

Well and I can invest the cost for insurance, fuel and repairs they have into a new work machine, some great cheese, import of several kilograms of coffee, paying the tax guy, paying the cleaning lady...

Make your life simple. Don't let other peoples "perspective" of live define yours.

I live a very luxury life with an income that's in the middle payment range.

I could shoot higher - but I see no reason for it. I don't need more money, cause it's fine as it is.

@IntrusionCM Quite a nice ideal life there tbh. I personally rent at lower rates than probably the rest of the area I'm in, just have to send a decent amount of money back home due to responsibilities. I'm curious how you handle the fear of rising inflation and not buying a house in time otherwise rental money will go to waste etc, it's what everyone keeps telling me everytime I meet them (frankly quite annoying but I can't fault what they say).

@AleCx04 at least we chose our morons 😂

our problem is uneducated vote, not the voting rights themselves. we have the day off to vote, they have ballots everywhere, even in prison and indigenous reserves. it's also really easy to register to vote here, you just go once to get the documentation. oh and it's mandatory, so everyone votes 🤷

@darksideofyay its almost like…. America is also a big country….. and the gun issues aren’t…. Across the whole thing…. But rather isolated to regions just like rio.

Wild fuckin concept, huh?

@pandasama I dunno know how it is with inflation in your country.

In Germany it's pretty ... Fucked up.

The prices were always "too low".

Comparing world market price and prices in germany... Well no one wonder the bubble exploded the way it did.

As I usually support regional farmer markets, I already bought for several years at higher prices. Getting only from supermarket the usual stuff.

So the inflation was for me like ...

"Duh... Don't care." Cause I paid for a long time higher prices - to support the regional farmers, who cannot sell in local discounters without severe loss of income (aka price dumping).

Rent / Cost for shelter. It's one of the things I don't understand either, though this is dependent on country.

In Germany landlords vs tenant, the tenant has always the upper hand, unless they ... Do disturbing things.

Rental money isn't wasted.

I'm e.g. a useless potatoe when it comes to craftmanship.

I could buy a house. But I would never be able to repair it, maintain it, clean it etc. on my own.

Hence renting makes sense. The landlord ensures maintenance / repair, I additionally pay a cleaning lady as I hate cleaning, be done.

The other thing that disturbs me regarding building houses...

The risk. Buying a house requires a credit and it requires trust in either the vendor or the building company. Plus trust in the bank.

It's really a lot of gamble. A credit for a house is a long term commitment, as much as the faith that the building company / vendor didn't fuck up.

Most damages - due to "faulty" claims / building - in houses show up only after a certain time ...

So if you're like me a single person with no interest in founding a family, that's like 100 % risk with 0 % of gain.

@Stuxnet really? it seems to me it's never the same school smh.

i only remember one school shooting during my lifetime. never heard of a teen shooting themselves. never heard of gun accidents with kids. while we treat gun violence as something that would happen by the hand of a hardcore criminal you guys have it happen by the hands of civilians and you think that's normal. gang violence is rooted in poverty, race issues, historical roots. what's the root of your problems?

@IntrusionCM everyone is fucked by inflation everywhere

@IntrusionCM I like the way you think there. Thanks for sharing, I have seen some people who bought homes and noticed issues in them. It's just a lot of people just mortgage property and then put it up for rent, so rent is always higher than how much you'd pay for the mortgage of the same property. And this just means it'll rise with rising house prices until we retire and don't have a home, is there no fear of this?

@pandasama There are regions in Germany where you cannot rent space as it is ... Unpayable.

Yes, it has become a problem....

Though - and there we are back at square one - we have in Germany the exact opposite problem, too.

"Dorfsterben" ... Many villages cease to exist, as they're not attractive enough.... Local supermarket closes, people move away, ...

So if you could work from remote (a sad topic that has gotten much better thx to Rona) the solution is quite easy.

Just don't move into a megalopolis / metropolitan area.

It's as simple as that... XD

@IntrusionCM that's true, remote opens a lot of doors

A country that can actually vote in Donald Trump to be president has some serious issues in the general population. School shootings and lack of gun control, fair enough - but how the fuck could Donald Trump win an election?

Besides that, I get the impression that in the US you don't just have a job, you ARE your job. Well paid in our industry, but work/life balance is not always great.

US: amazing holiday place, endless places to visit and see, very friendly people, vast.. all the great things! But live there? No.

Same reason people aren't queuing up to work in my country of birth (Britain) - we're the past, man. America has a few decades left, but everyone knows it - it's not where the party is anymore. What good is money if you're the only one in the bar?

@Stuxnet I love how a lot of shit here is: I've never lived or worked there **BUT**

lol

@AleCx04 Isn't it enough to watch CNN, Friends and Law & Order to have an opinion about an entire country, it's culture and what the living conditions would be like?

@darksideofyay see, I ain't shitting hard on you because for every problem I can name, a solution from your side can be provided. Truthful indeed! "this happens with us because X" can applied just the same with us.

We could go all day round concerning what makes us tick in different ways than it does you, what issues your country has over mine. But we can't, it is just as simple as saying: shit sucks both ways. But that is NEVER the case when discussing the U.S. Never. It is always "Oh they suck because we have Y" as if no other issue in your country was just as fucking bad.

The hypocrisy is real also. I am not one to cast a stone to other countries for their shitty bullshit, but for whatever reason I am expected to understand heat from places that are no better than mine.

@devdiddydog true, true indeed my g

@devdiddydog tbf UK did Brexit, and I've found in UK you only make bank in FAANG or working in actual banks, both of which require an insane amount of work from you. It's the same with consultancy too, my brother and his wife are in banks and consultancy and they've worked weekends more times than I can count, worked bank holidays too. But they get paid a lot for it, rest of UK jobs are quite less in comparison tbh

@MM83 Tbf many people are still immigrating to the US and UK (all my friends left my country and went to US/UK/Canada). I don't think US will ever be in the past due to its countless influence and power throughout the world.

@AleCx04 I mean tbf I asked about what is stopping UK and EU people

@ostream yeah I think about that too tbh, like my parents are in my home country and I'm here in Uak, really scared me during COVID but inflation made me stay since money became quite important for their general survival lol

@UnicornPoo Yeah I'm in London but a very very cheap area (Croydon) but my main expense is the money I send home to parents

@ostream Honestly depends on how one's life is too, if you're responsible for a whole family your costs rise and hence you need more money, I guess it just depends on the phase of life one is in

@ostream oh yeah... Sort of forgot about all that haha, though there are public schools in US too, in UK there are but I've heard private schools are much better here idk, I've heard mixed things in the UK

@pandasama That bad in the UK, hey? Come down to your largest colony. Pretty sweet here.

@devdiddydog is Canada that different from US after all. Better version, sure, but in many ways they are culturally similar.

@devdiddydog any suggestions?

@AleCx04 my original critique wasn't that we were better than the US, i said we're not in denial about our own crap. "why aren't people flocking to the US? you'll earn more!" and meanwhile we only hear the most absurd things in the news about you guys. Brazil is crap and no one is denying it. we do have a ton of problems, but I'd have a hard time leaving everything behind to live in a good place, i definitely wouldn't do it for the US

By the way, Texas forbids owning more than 6 dildos.

https://onwardtexas.org/trending/...#

So there is some sort of weapon ban....

🤣😆

@IntrusionCM lmao

@pandasama I'm in Australia, and even though my current client is overseas the local rates are competitive and a good option the day I want a new contract. And people here value a cold beer and a surf over sweating away in an office.

@electrineer Ouch, I thought Australia had a bigger land mass than Canada but I was wrong!

7,741,220 sq km vs 9,984,670 sq km.

You learn something every day! God damn it, Canada is huge!

@devdiddydog Oh that sounds fun!

@pandasama just seen you mention Croydon, your question makes sense now. You can’t see Croydon and not wonder why people aren’t fleeing these shores en masse.

@MM83 Yeah honestly considering going back to my uni city (Edinburgh) but there's a massive paycut for that :( also everywhere else is way too expensive

@pandasama most cities it'll amount to a pay rise in real terms, London is basically where it's at but there are plenty of other cool cities in the UK - I guess it gets back to the heart of your question, that money really isn't the bottom line here. Those of us who chase the dollar go stateside, those of us who like not dying of preventable illnesses tend not to. That's not meant to be a cheap shot, it's a genuine dilemma: the sense that you're basically leaving the civilised part of the West in order to get rich.

@MM83 Yeah you have a point there. Maybe I should try to explore more areas in the UK before I just form a strict opinion of the CoL to happiness and the worthiness of it all