168

Here's a list of unpopular stuff which I agree with:

1) I love Java more than any other programming language.

2) I love sleeping more than working.

3) I'm not a night owl. I thrive the most during daylight.

4) I don't like or need coffee. Tea is fine.

5) Webdev is a huge clusterfuck which I secretly wish that could just die already.

6) Cybersecurity is a meme and actually not that interesting. Same passes for Cloud, Machine Learning and Big Data.

7) Although I'm a huge fan of it Linux is too unstable and non-idiot proof to ever become mainstream on the desktop.

8) Windows is actually a pretty solid OS.

9) The real reason I don't use macos is because I'm a poorfag that can't afford an overpriced laptop.

10) I don't like math and I hate that people push math shit into random interview questions for dev jobs which have nothing to do with math.

Post yours.

Comments
  • 61
    Don't mind me, just setting up my tent πŸ•οΈ
  • 10
    @Froot where I come from, this is usually done with dots

    .
  • 23
    @JaegerStein But I like tents. What if it rains?
  • 20
    Don't mind me, just passing by the tent.
  • 10
    1) JavaScript not so bad (you can do so much!)
    2) coffee tastes terrible
    3) Love using my touchscreen for scrolling on long webpages (though thats about it)
  • 4
    Amen to the first 9! I like math though.
    Is there a space for an extra person in the tent πŸ•?
  • 4
    I absolutely hate coffee. Cappuccino is where it's at. It's really unhealthy, but at least it doesn't taste like doormat.
  • 5
    Can you just move a bit? Let me slide into the tent πŸ•.
    Hey also I have brought in popcorn 🍿
  • 7
    We live different lifestyles and have different opinions but i like you anyway ++
  • 11
    *peeks in tent*
    *sees three or four guys on top of each other*
    I don't think they'll mind if I set up my tent here...
  • 11
    Tent party! *opens beer*
  • 18
    Came for the rant, stayed for the camping! (Better let me into one of you guys tents!)
  • 8
    β›ΊAm I welcome?
  • 4
    Love it. If you would have added that people that get into language wars are retarded then it would have been perfect.
  • 6
    Yeah! Camping! β›Ί 🍺 πŸ”₯
  • 1
    Upvoting for the first one alone
  • 4
    @Proximyst ayy, didn't see you there. Remember me from Coalesce?
  • 6
    Moar tents!!
    β›Ί
  • 7
    More beer!!!
    🍺🍺🍺 🍻
  • 3
    **Grabs Popcorn**

    Anyone want ?
    This is gonna be a show
  • 5
    PHP 7 is my favourite scripting language. (Where python is not more suited. Happens a lot in my line of work)

    Tabs are still better at indentation. And of course the solution to the 2, 4 spaces war

    There is no God. There are no miracles. Not without proof.
  • 3
    πŸ•οΈ
  • 5
    got wifi in β›Ί ?
  • 4
    @theScientist Thank you, Sir :p
    @AL1L Yeah, hey Allen hahh
  • 4
    I disagree heavily with machine learning, but everything else is pretty much spot on. :)
  • 3
    @Bitwise
    You should read some Ayn Rand, Hoppe and Milton Friedman. It will change everything you think you know about money and liberty.
  • 4
    @galapaka Popcorn? And welcome to devRant! πŸ˜ƒ
  • 3
    @Bitwise you do realize that your believes are the root of national socialism and the reason of everything that is wrong in it.
  • 3
    Which camping place are you guys on? I wanna join.
  • 2
    I agree with almost everything you said (maybe not coffee, and I actually like math although I agree in many cases it's not necessary)
    Also cloud+web dev+big data gave us SaaS products which is a great business model and a fruitful area of startup innovation.

    My unpopular like is Angular (2+) framework. It's still not complete (even at v5 it has basic features that only partially work, like i18n) but it's convenient and has great potential. I believe it will take the web forward.
  • 4
    still any room left in the β›Ί ?
    I brought WiFi
  • 2
    @kenogo
    There's a thing called opinion.
  • 4
    @gitpush woohoo! Now we can livestream this mess! Come on in!
  • 5
    @SZenC but do we have a power source? You know my router doesn't work on batteries
  • 1
    @Bitwise wow I agree with all your list but the C thing. Because C++ is a very nice guy, and Elixir is one too
  • 6
    @Chlodovechus @kenogo "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant."

    Harlan Ellison
  • 5
    @gitpush no, this is just a random field. But I do have a bike 🚴...
    (Or you can hook up a steam generator to this heated debate)
  • 3
    @SZenC just don't bike far from the tent, don't think my router range is big enough :(
  • 6
    I believe anyone using java for a new project is making a terribly uninformed decision.

    I don't believe in the whole morning/evening person- it's a matter of routine, anyone who says otherwise simply hasn't tried enough and uses this as an excuse to sleep in.

    Understanding C is a crucial skill in understanding how programming works. If you don't understand it, I will be doubtful of your skills, until you prove them.

    I dislike fat people that lament their weight.

    Finally, energy drinks are the devil and Mate tastes like ass in an ashtray.
  • 2
    @kenogo not you. Don't be so salty
  • 2
    @evilmupp3t only the last point is sad
  • 4
    @kenogo
    I've been working in cybersecurity for 4 years.
    I've been a SOC analyst, Incident reaponse guy, forensics, security sysadmin and R&D.

    It's a meme.
  • 2
    @kenogo @Chlodovechus I also worked for a cyber security company... Maybe some of the technology is necessary, but because no one can guarantee security through a product, many cyber security companies actual sell a cool story and meaningless certifications in their way to loads of money...
  • 0
    @Chlodovechus Is this sarcastic?
  • 3
    @solocoder I did too work in cybersecurity. Following Peter Gutman book a few years ago. Most we did was fighting social engineering with formation and protocols. I have seen a few companies that got saved from massive losses (something like 300'000e at once)

    If you call it a meme, you did not do your work well. You more likely did aftercleanup
  • 3
    @gitpush I can fix up some solar panels and inverter. Game ?
  • 3
    @theElectron works with me πŸ˜€
  • 3
    @gitpush well since I stayed so long... Mind if I bring a generator and my workstation? Is there still room in the πŸ•οΈ
  • 3
    @QCat is it your workstation running Windows πŸ€”? I need to play a game while I'm in the tent
  • 1
    @theElectron sounds good. Btw. It could take some time to settle here so, I think we should get some more beer.
  • 3
    @gitpush I have dual boot, but does Windows still work after all these years πŸ€”
  • 3
    @QCat don't want any risks, please format it and make sure windows is working :p
  • 1
    @Wack I have wine to drink, but it is a bit strong
  • 3
    Btw. I think we should get a fire started and cook some food.
  • 2
    @kenogo as a very French Bearnish person, I have Bordeaux wine and Jurancon wine, as well as Floc de Gascogne πŸ‘Œ
  • 0
    @QCat I'm not saying the technology is not good. I'm saying most customers and investors don't understand it and misuse it. Most customers only care about their standards compliance and not actual security and most investors care about the cyber security buzz words (better if it's in connection to others such as AI or IoT) so the actual product is secondary to the marketing.
  • 1
    @solocoder well here in France, getting personnal information of customers stolen cost a minimum of 125'000e / customer if we follow the law as is.
    And there are lots of smart enough hackers. Where I live, there was a group that infected all the display computers in shops and supermarkets and waited for them to be connected to the internet to steal data.
    They went up to accessing the internal network of one of the supermarkets to steal customers information through this. It made lots of people concerned about how do hackers proceed.
  • 0
    @QCat also many products are not cost effective. Causing too many restrictions on the user which cost time in training and finding work arounds (that may even cause more security beaches), slow the networks (or even endpoint machines) significantly, can be misused to spy on employees or other hazards.
  • 1
    @solocoder That is why we aimed for things that work in practice but not in theory. Like non standard captcha, using other algorithms than NSA's winners, and more importantly, teaching users how to keep their tongue in their pocket online and with non confirmed personnel.

    Also putting a 2 persons policy on financial management so we make inpersonating harder
  • 0
    @QCat I agree that solutions are needed and are nessesary but no one solution can guarantee that there will be no data leakage and because of that it's impossible to provide guarantees so cyber security companies have it easy.

    Let's say that you are a concerned company and going shopping for a cyber security solution. One company provides you a honeypot solution, the other a data leackage scanner, another phishing protection, the forth one a malware simulator.... You need to cover so many angles and no one can guarantee full coverage, and you are not a security export so you don't know what you need. Many companies exploit that and hype to sell over complicated products that give little to no benefit
  • 0
    @solocoder well sad for them, my job was preventing them to buy such products with a concrete utility of near 0 πŸ˜‚
  • 0
    @Bitwise
    There is nothing right with socialism.

    It relies on suckers and theft of private property. It gets exploited by dictatorial regimes and millions were murdered in its name. It does not respect individual liberty, corrupts morals and traditions and destroys societies.

    All the so called "Socialist" scandinavian states which are shown as a good example of Socialism working are actually capitalist welfare states, abd even they are collapsing from 3rd world immigration.

    The only thing Socialism is good at is failing.
  • 3
    @Chlodovechus do you even know what socialist mean? You sound like you mistake is with stalinism
  • 1
    @QCat
    Yes I do, because I live in a former-socialist country which was saved by neoliberal capitalism.
  • 1
    @Chlodovechus okay, you truly mistake socialism and stalinism then...
  • 2
    @theScientist sorry was busy eating πŸ˜›
    I mean yes yes it is ready 😎
  • 1
    @QCat
    Both are horrible.
  • 1
    @Bitwise let it go, he suffers from the curse of double ignorance
  • 0
    @Bitwise if you say that the perfect example of capitalism is the current situation in the U.S. - you are dead wrong. There is way too much corruption for it to be 'perfect'.

    Please see @Chlodovechus comment to get a better idea of what a 'perfect' capitalist driven society looks like (Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand, etc..)
  • 0
    @Bitwise ikr, it pisses me of too
  • 2
    @Bitwise

    I don't like it when the government steals half of my money to pay for welfare parasites and inefficent bureaucracy.

    People ahould be responible and take care of themselves in a voluntary way without waiting for mommy government to steal money for gibsmedats.
  • 1
    @Bitwise i will tell you how totalitarian regimes get equated with socialism.

    Socialists rely on the notion that the government will enforce the will of the people. Thats why its totalitarian. An individual has no weight (compared to the will of the people).

    Capitalists rely on the individual playing a role in the free market. Thus creating a social fabric of free exchange of services or products.

    Free healthcare you say? Easy for you.
    A doctor spends hunderds of thaudands of dollars in his education, thousands of hours of real life practice and years of learning.

    And you expect the doctor to give his services for free? Would you code for free?
  • 2
    @Bitwise
    No, I just want people to stop demanding stuff they don't deserve.

    In a capitalist libertartian utopia lazy people would just not exist, nobody would give them money and if they violate the NAP by stealing they would get shot or expelled
  • 2
    @Chlodovechus Well refuse to be cured if you have a brain tumor to see how it feels not to have 1.4m€ to pay for a vial of PET tumor revealer. I don't think you will have paid that much in taxes anyway
  • 1
    @Bitwise

    Nothing is free...
    Someone woukd need to pay for the teachers to teach for "free".

    That someone is you and me. Instead of a healthy suppmy and demand free market where quality improves and prices drop we get government control and theft.
  • 1
    @Bitwise

    Believe me I know what it is like to live in war and misery. I served in the military for 3 years and I live in Israel where we suffer from terrorist attacks and rockets almost every day.

    The solution for human suffering is liberty and prosperity, not collectevism and slavery.
  • 4
    @bioDan why should a doctor pay that much money on his/her education? What if education was free?
    Yes someone would have to pay for it. Yes that means you pay by taxes for it. For other peoples education.
    On a short term it may seams as if you suport other people
    In the long term that means there are more skilled people in the society. More inventions, better health (and thus lower costs that the society has to carry). So what would be so wrong about free healthcare, free education

    Heck let's take that thought further. What would be wrong about a system where you don't have any money. Imagine going in a store and not have to pay for the items that you need. You should still scan them, so the store can be restocked. Why not imagine a society where we don't divide people by wealth, every one in the society proveides something to that society. Doesn't mather if you're a doctor, a plumber or a single parent, you all contribute in some way or another.

    I personally think that would be a nice place to life.
  • 1
    @Wack

    People would abuse this.
    Not everyone are inherently good, intelectual and naive as you.

    People would scam, not work and exploit this system until and corrupts fully and collapses, and then nearky everyone will starve.

    See Venezuela, Ukrainian holodomor, great leap forward in China as an example.

    The only to balance powers between people is the Free Market, the most equal, natural and balanced economical systrm in existence.
  • 1
    @Bitwise

    All I'm saying is that governments were a necessity when humans wre primitive and uncivilized.

    Now we are advanced enough. We don't need rulers anymore. All human interaction ahould be completely volutary and defended with weapons.

    The only human rights that exist are property rights. Everything else is a privilege.
  • 0
    I'm not against healthcare but I'm against the view that money is there source of all evil. If you only work out of the goodness of your heart and let's say that you are self motivated to put yourself into a very hard training period just because you like it (talking about doctors, engineers, scientists...). You will only provide services for those you like which causes favouritism, strengthen bieses and causes more heatred between races and nationalities.
    The more homogeneous the society is the easier it is to implement more socialist structures. When you have different values and different behaviors an indescriminate social rules will inproporitianally benefit the part of society which is poorer even when it's by choice (more children, less focus on education, more unpaid community help), causing "justified" hatred thords minorities since they receive inproporitianally amount of benefits (taking money from the majority). On a more capitalist society each carry their own weight.
  • 3
    1) Writting guis in c++ sucks

    2) Machine learning is boring

    3) Languages should be specialized (looking at you JS)

    4) IOS is a horrible os

    5) Soccer is a boring sport

    6) The web's "scripting" language should not be JS but something similar to Assembler

    7) Ides for C/C++ development: CLion > VS Code > Visual Studio

    8) People should learn about Computer Science Theory

    9) using "goto" is not a sin and can be very useful

    10) Using multiple languages in a project is a good idea

    11) People overdue patterns in their code.

    12) Patterns should be thought early when learning languages
  • 2
    @Batburger asm.js dude
  • 0
    @QCat That is pretty cool!
    I did not know that existited.
  • 1
    @Batburger you can compile C code to asm.js with emscripten and use SDL to make games for WebGL. Kinda cool
  • 0
    @QCat I'll try that
  • 0
    @Batburger @QCat old news, try wasm instead
  • 0
    I like C#

    πŸ•
  • 3
    @Bitwise @et @al

    I'm from Germany. We have a beautiful word for our state, "Solidarstaat" (roughly translated as state of solidarity) , which means that - while everyone is responsible for his own success and wealth - we share the costs for injury/sickness/disability/etc. in our society, since we're sharing the risk as well. Granted every person her/his dignity is actually one of the fundamental statements of our constitution.

    Let's take education as an example: If you want to study at a university in Germany, you only pay a negligible amount of money (for me it was ~600€/year) and you can even get a free credit from the government. I have a good friend with whom I went to elementary school. His parents aren't rich and have not been going to university, while my parents both did (my father being a doctor of physics).

    (...)
  • 4
    @theCalcaholic

    After school we both started studying at a university. If the bills weren't mostly covered by the state, his barriers to be able to study would be extremely higher than mine:
    - He would have had to built up immense debts, while my parents would have been able to lend me that money without interest
    - He couldn't even get a credit easily, because he weren't able to give any security except for the job his degree might grant him at some point.

    But gladly, as we have this concept of solidarity, he has now successfully finished his degree in medical engineering while I've (nearly) done mine in CS.

    I'm proud to live in a state where no citizen *has* to live on the street, fighting cancer is very unlikely to ruin you and your family financially and people are given refuge if their lives are being threatened where they come from and I gladly helping, financing that system.
  • 1
    @theCalcaholic The same is applied in France, under a very close name, (and it would make me proud too if its bureaucratic mazes had not left me without money and in dire straits for 10 months, without even medical coverage)
  • 0
    @QCat Yes I was talking to a french friend about the topic some time ago and it sounded even better than in Germany in some points.

    Sorry to hear about the bureaucracy issues though. Maybe it helps to hear that we have that in Germany as well.
  • 2
    About tea...
  • 1
    @Bitwise I really hope you'll find just that.

    But be aware that it's not all the people who think like it. It's a constant struggle for holding up these values against separatist ideas (which currently gain popularity both in the USA and in the EU).
  • 1
    @QCat @theCalcaholic in a perfect world healthcare should be available for everyone given similar lifestyle. If 50% of your health care taxes were spent on people who smoke and you don't smoke you would have been pissed off of smokers. In real life smokers pay for their own health care due to increased cigarettes taxes so it's a non issue. But if there is a big chunk of people that have lots of kids and don't educate themselves because of religion so they have to live off welfare, the welfare laws themselves cause tension between parts of society, increasing racism and hatred between people. Less welfare may encurage these parts of society to take a more active role in society making them less poor and less hated.
  • 0
    @solocoder in France social security impose a tax on cigarettes, about half of their price is composed of taxes
  • 1
    @Bitwise the US is an immigration country since it's beginning. European countries are slowly becoming immigration targets themselves (because of Middle Eastern wars, globalization...). Most of them are not used to having really big minorities so there's going to be a bit of a transition period that might not be peaceful...
  • 2
    @solocoder I think that goes into the wrong direction. Why'd you stop there? Why don't deny health care to people who don't do enough sports or don't eat healthy (I'm not even mad, healthcare orgs are suggesting this)...

    No, seriously, *everyone* should have access to health care. Otherwise that's a dangerous line to draw.

    In case of the second example you gave, there's a better solution:

    Don't give them the option to not educate themselves. Forbid home schooling. Good education should be mandatory as it is the number 1 foundation a democratic country is built upon.
  • 2
    @Bitwise well, if you happen to drop by France or Germany, since I have read a bit of your posts, I'll be glad to know your history and help you if you look for a job or want to learn French πŸ˜‰
    You already have my respect
  • 1
    @QCat exactly what I mean. If that wasn't the case and you know that smokers put a big strain on the healthcare system that non smokers pay for there would have been riots against smokers.
  • 2
    @solocoder well I have to admit that when I catch a high schooler smoking, I want to extinguish his cigarette with his own tears
  • 1
    @solocoder Yep, it's a hard task for a country and it's society. But I'm certain it's doable.

    As for Germany - we're used to having big immigration waves. The current one is being handled the best if you compare them.

    It's the first one which has no economic cause though.
  • 0
    @theCalcaholic if you only allow the the country to dictate what you learn you can have yourself a brainwashing education system. You don't want that. You can't control what people teach their kids at home.
  • 1
    @theCalcaholic *everyone* can't have access to healthcare. If you invest more in cancer treatment you invest less in dialysis. If you want to give free anti HIV cocktails to everyone you deny something else from someone. That's why people who practice dangerous sports need special insurance and can't be satisfied with standard public health care.
  • 1
    @solocoder to be honest France tax system is the most complicated in the world, to the point it is estimated that 1/3 of the money collected is used to... collect the taxes
  • 2
    @solocoder Well, 'the country' in this case is democratic. That means that there are diverse, mostly transparent discussions about what is teached. Also in Germany there are measures in place which decouple the universities from the states' influence (they train our teachers after all).

    It's way better than rely on home schooling without working quality checks.
    Imho it *should* be controlled by the government what is teached as long as the process leading to the curriculum is scientifically sound.
  • 1
    @theCalcaholic I agree with you but only because the government is mostly secular. If there would have been a big religious influence in the government (which is true in many democratic countries) I don't think you would agree with learning creationism and young earth....
  • 2
    @QCat I'd bet it's even a larger portion than that. That's why I actually think "universal basic income" might actually be a good solution.
  • 0
    @solocoder Yeah, that's why I say 'scientifically sound'. :)

    In the end, the people should have ways of taking action against such a thing (and it is another reason why I value the legally warranted independence of academic research and education).
  • 2
    So funny how liberals criticize poor people for depending on welfare programs although they need the state to protect their property. Btw, neoliberalism has never saved a country.
  • 0
    @theCalcaholic
    You live in a country that keeps destroying Europe in the 10000th time since the Roman times, hates its own history and heritage in favour of globalism and surrenders itself to radical Islamist savages.

    And you also believe that your education is free. It isn't. The source of the governments wealth is either theft fron the local populace(i.e taxes) or creating debt(which ensures more theft and taxes at a later date).
  • 1
    @cowsay
    I don't need a bunch of bureaucrats and corrupt politicians who steal my income to protect my property. We are not living in medieval times anymore and I don't need a protection of a local baron.

    Just allow me to purchase weapons and we're all good :)
  • 1
    @Chlodovechus Wrong in all points, sorry.
    I like my country's history. A lot of value has been coming from it.
    One of these values is the understanding and appointment of a government which *serves* its citizens.
    Or, to cite the constitution of Weimar: "The German empire is a republic. The authority comes from the people."

    Paying taxes is a little prize for living in a stable, free and safe country, not reigned by selfish gun heads.

    You claim that we aren't living in medieval times anymore and yet you demand medieval conditions.

    Anarchy and the right of the strongest - which is what you elaborate on - were left behind for very good reasons, centuries ago.
  • -1
    @Bitwise
    I don't want to pay taxes to an inefficient and corrupt government yet I have to because the state can throw me in jail if I refuse. That's not how service works. Service is something I can choose to buy or provide to others. What the state does with taxes is robbery and goes against nature.

    All the services the state provides can be replaced by the free market with much higeher quality and cheaper prices.
  • 0
    @Bitwise
    That's because you can't control where most of the tax money goes. Instead if helping the poor and sick tax money usually goes to corruot bureaucracy and special interest groups.

    We can't trust governments.
  • 2
    @cowsay it's never all or nothing... I could say that even though you like welfare you don't want to have drafts for forced labor or your property confescated by the state for the greater good.
    A government has no incentive to be efficient or effective, the only incentive is to be popular by the eyes of the majority. This causes a really huge inefficient systems that do nothing and strain the economy. The government needs to be as slim as possible and meddle as little as possible in private people's lives.
  • -1
    @kenogo
    Right now it does, because the mindest of the population is poisoned with socialist and communist ideas which must be physically removed in order to create a true Libertarian social order.

    As long as there are violent parasites, there can never be total freedom. But we can get close to it as much as possible.
  • 3
    @Chlodovechus you know what, you are right, screw the government, screw to police, let's get ourselves weapons and kill whoever suspicious approaches our houses.
    Let's let hospitals charge us however they want, and refuse us if we don't pay cash, at the worst case, we can threaten the doctor with our wonderful weapons
    Let's just let disabled people and former injured military die, we don't need an army, we have weapons and freedom!
    Let's make firefighters private, so they only help whoever is worth it and let the others die.

    Do I continue?
  • 2
    @Chlodovechus your property? Dude I'm not talking about possessions, I mean private property. Private property and, by extension, capitalism would never exist without the state.
  • 0
    @kenogo the fact that it won't help them? A small group of them will have to manager it instead and it will be the same or worse.... The easiest thing to do is just quit and join a better paying place...
  • 1
    @Chlodovechus Well, in Germany you can in fact control, where the tax money is going. Transparency is enforced for anything except some secret service stuff.

    I don't trust government. That's why we need good and free media and freedom of speech. To control the government.
    I don't know how it works in the USA, but it does farely well here.
  • 0
    @QCat
    This sounds perfect to me. And in reality it can be even much better
  • 0
    @Chlodovechus wow. I suddenly became racist against idiots
  • 1
    @theCalcaholic
    Well you are lucky to live in relative transparency.

    Where I live(Israel) the government takes away half of your money to pay for religious fanatics' families with 8+ kids who don't work nor serve in the military, fund shady weapons deals, useless wars, pensions for military personnel and state workers who retire at age 45, illegal activities and paying salary to terrorists in Syria.

    The government here also forces you to serve in the miltary for 3 years of your life(unless you're Muslim or ultra religious), forces you to abide by religious law(no separation of religion and state) and spies on your internet traffic to "prevent terrorism".
  • 2
    @Chlodovechus Oh, you're living in Israel. Well, in that case believe me, I can totally understand both your anger about and your skepticism towards the government.

    It's a shitty situation, started by the British gamble during the second world war and I have no idea how it could or should be solved.
  • 1
    @Bitwise
    You don't trust your money in private business owners whose interests is to provide you quality products and services to gain profit via competition, yet you trust putting it in the hands of power- hungry politicians whose only desire is to gain power and be reelected to the poubt of a totalitarian dictatorahip.

    Makes sense to me
  • 3
    @Chlodovechus you seem to believe that corruption doesn't exist in the private sector.
  • 1
    @Chlodovechus That's why you have a choice. :)

    Elections are popular for a reason.
  • 0
    @theCalcaholic
    The main problem in Israel is that about 60-70% of the population are unfit to live in western civilization and should be deported to the Arab world or Africa.
    The remaining 30-40% are decent hardworking folk which provide for evryone else and hold up the economy.
  • 0
    @cowsay
    It exists, but as a consumer you have power over it and can control it mor openly, unlike governments which have a monopoly on the usage of lethal force.
  • -1
    @theCalcaholic
    Democracy is a false god.
    In practice it is a dictatorahip of the mindless, populist majority who will trample over individual rights for populist causes or material rewards.
  • 0
    @Chlodovechus Maybe it needs some time...

    Modern Israel is quite a young state, born into a complicated conflict.
  • 3
    @Chlodovechus when I pay my taxes, I have a detail of where everything goes : 23% of my income go to pay medical coverage, 24% are split by government budget, then about 1 month of income goes to local government for roads, social infrastructure, universities and schools, hospitals (non medical)

    Last year I have been severely burned, I stayed in the hospital for 3 month, for a cost of 45000e, which is more than any of my incomes that year and the previous one, my girlfriend got hospitalized too, for about 15000e.

    I guess in your "perfect" world, we would be dead in the streets with none to bury us.
  • 0
    @Chlodovechus The thing about democracy is this: Sometimes, distress needs to reach a certain level before the important battles can be fought.

    It's visible in history over and over again. In Germany it's currently building up to such an edge.
  • 0
    @Chlodovechus what about the those big company monopolies? What about propaganda and ideology that makes us consume?
  • 1
    @Chlodovechus BTW, sorry but humans will NEVER stop being primitive, if you think human can stop being directed by primitive instincts, there is a problem
  • 1
    @Bitwise is right, this discussion is pointless, communism will win anyway.
  • 1
    @Bitwise I am happy that you published it, because I met a like-minded person through it. Look at the pros

    I owe you a beer sir
  • 1
    @Bitwise Actually I liked this discussion. It was objective in most parts, good points have been brought to the table, and I at least got a better understanding of each's point of view.

    So I'm glad you brought it up. :)
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    @Bitwise For me, discussions are more about developing my own opinion (for example by being confronted with good ideas/arguments) than changing that of others.
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    @QCat you should be happier to meet nice coherent minds with the opposite view to diversify and challenge your stance :)
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    @solocoder I wish I could ++ that multiple times. :)
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    @cowsay
    If some company is a monopoly without government aid it means it does a good job.

    All current monopolies and cartels exist because of government cronyism and lobbies. Not because of the free market.

    In a truly free society ruled only by the Invisible Hand of tge free market monopolies will be mostly temporary or justified.
  • 1
    @theCalcaholic I'm going to sleep now but one argument I missed against the monopoly of the state over education is that racism and marxsism we're considered scientific at the time.
  • 0
    @QCat
    Transhumanism, genetical engineering, and technology will eliminate this problem.
  • 2
    @solocoder truth is I am, most of the time xD so I am not that dissatisfied tbh
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    @Chlodovechus isn't fighting this very part of us abandoning morals I the first place? That was the whole topic of the American serie "Fringe" and I think the point of view of Abrams dystopia is very true
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    @solocoder There are a lot of good ideas to be found in Marxism. :)
    I don't see why it shouldn't be discussed.

    You know, in most sciences like philosophy, literature, culture sciences, social science, etc. there isn't always a definite truth, so it's actually important to teach oppositional opinions - why not Marxism too?
    Training sharp minds is a more important goal of education than presenting solutions.

    But anyways... Good night! :D
  • 0
    @kenogo I will believe in Cooperative companies forever, it is an ideal I could never forget
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    @kenogo There's a third reason: They are fine with the offer.
    You are describing the situation at the time of the big labour movements.
    Today, most workers can very well live from their wage. In some cases they have to sell themselves to the companies, but in many cases, companies need to sell themselves to the workers - depending on supply and demand.

    Also, in some countries (like Germany) we have a minimum wage to ensure fair conditions.
  • 1
    @kenogo No, you are right.

    You know, I'm not in favor of capitalism or communism. I'm not living in the cold war. I can think in more facets than black and white.

    My main problem with communism is that I don't think it can work very well on a national level.
    I think it might be a good model for a global concept of society - if we one day get that far.

    But I see flaws in 'pure' capitalism as well as in 'pure' communism and in my opinion the best models we currently have are compromises of the two - and other - concepts (like in my country).
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    @theCalcaholic Please don't misunderstand me: I'm not saying 'Germany has the best government' or that it is perfect. I'm just saying that those countries - among them Germany - which try to embed social, solidary concepts in an otherwise liberal environment are doing quite good.
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    @kenogo you are forgetting that factories and businesses are built. And they require "self investment" to keep innovating and growing. Do the money can't just be shared between workers, it's against the interest of the entire company. What if the workers want to hire another maintenance worker, how will they calculate how much he should earn if not through the free market price? Company owners have risks you don't know about, many times they go to extreme debt to save their company, business owners that take most of the company money are either very good at this jobs or the company is destined to collapse.
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    @theCalcaholic I agree but it should be in context, like mein campf. Marxsism is a propoganda campain aimed to empower the regime at the expense of the individual. This doctorine caused the biggest crimes against humanity in the last decade (Soviet Russia, North Korea, China, Venezuela...)
  • 1
    @kenogo it's not true anymore in today's technology. An individual can be a freelancer designer, programmer, marketer, writer, Uber driver and most other professions and doesn't have to rely on an employer. If you are saying that the common worker is not able to create a business, how to you suggest he manage himself?
  • 1
    @kenogo is it that bad that in order to have "individuality" you have to prove yourself and work hard?
    What kind of self expression does your model give?
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    @kenogo people contribute to open source because it gives free mentorship and training. Also pumps up the CV and many owned by businesses or foundations that actually pay developers or get big donations from interested parties.
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    @Bitwise I'm actually all for universal basic income (said it in a previous comment) but I think it can work great in a capitalist society
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    @Bitwise in my mind capitalism emphasize on freedom of choice which UBI enables. Socialism emphasize on the "greater good" and contributing to an engineered society.
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    @Bitwise I'm my mind the government establishment is too easily corruptible and even if the current leaders are ok the next ones might not be (because of agenda, greed or stupidity) so removing as much power from central authority can ensure fuckups will have limited effect.
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    @Bitwise

    Socialism is, for all I know, necessarily a dictatorship of the proletariat (apart from libertarian socialism).
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    @Bitwise

    I don't think socialism can use the government as is for a "greater good", it needs to reorganize it completely, and that's what it does.
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    @solocoder But UBI is a very communism inspired concept. :)

    It's exactly what you say: 'engineered society'.
    I think, communism had some very good ideas (not all of them imo). However the situation has changed (we have labor unions, work council, workers are by far not as oppressed as they were once) and thus, we need to reevaluate these concepts as well. Stuff like healthcare or UBI still make a lot of sense to me.
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    @Bitwise I'm no expert, but from my perspective it doesn't look like the checks and balances system in the US has been very well engineered in the first place.

    How can so much power be concentrated on one person?
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    @theCalcaholic it doesn't really matter how much less oppressed workers seem to be, because capitalism needs exploitation to exist. Unions only exist so capitalism isn't as aggressive as it'd naturally be.
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    @cowsay what is this "capitalism needs exploitation to exist"? Exploitation has nothing to do with the definition of capitalism.

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Capitalism
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    @cowsay Actually, *wealth* needs exploitation to exist. We define wealth by comparison. That's the number one reason why capitalism is the way it is.

    That's why I say, communism might work on a global scale but not on a national scale.

    However I have no idea how humanity should get there.

    Capitalism today doesn't primarily exploit workers in its own country but those in poorer countries.
  • 2
    @theCalcaholic that's still exploitation.

    @bioDan Capitalism is about capital accumulation, which depends on the appropriation of what is created by many. And yes, that can be discovered simply by googling it.
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    @theCalcaholic automation will help remove the need for cheap labor so there will no longer be a need for poor country exploitation.
    UBI removes the need for social security and many of the government social facilities thus makes the public sector much smaller. It will also remove minimum wage and other rules that hinder establishing a company. Sounds capitalist to my ears.
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    @bioDan however, I don't mean that it is exclusive to capitalism, it is the foundation of any class-based society.
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    @theCalcaholic communism is natural for ants and termites. Humans are tribal and more independent like wolves, rats and monkeys.

    I think that a sort of "global communist" social engineering can be a nice idea to play with.
    But since it colludes with each individual's deep natural state, it should be an evolutionary process that take several generations to accomplish.
    We also need to have clear and safe milestones to accomplish it, and it also should be a globally agreed upon by its virtue by each individual and not enforced or imposed.The only way to do that is that big corporations like Google and Facebook brainwash everyone.

    No thank you. I'd prefer to go with free markets and more checks and balances on financial institutions and corporations until we'll have a mega AI-Financial-Hive to replace it and manage wealth with better efficiency and equity.
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    @cowsay like communism?
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    @bioDan err, no. Actually communism's goal is to abolish classes as well as the state.
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    @cowsay as the final never reached goal :)
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    @cowsay yeah but in practice every communist "society" was structured in/to classes.
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    @solocoder yes, and that's one of the reasons why I'm actually an anarchist.
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    @bioDan well, no communist society has ever been established, so no "practice" there.
  • 0
    @cowsay exactly. And it can't be established naturally either. Its not in our nature. But it can be socially engineered. Please read my comment above..
  • 0
    @cowsay about the "no communism in practice".. Tell that to the hundreds of millions of people that died in order to "get" to that goal in the past 200 years.
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    @bioDan that's what socialism (again, apart from libertarian) is for. It's a temporary state meant to make a qualitative societal change as well as maintain internacional sovereignty until communism is established.
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    @cowsay communism will never be established like that. Please read my comment to @theCalcaholic about this carefully.
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    @bioDan but I agree that it won't.
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    @cowsay thats totally ok. I'm positive that in time you'll see things differently :)
  • 0
    @bioDan I'll do when your god, the free market, actually makes things more equal here in Brazil, but I haven't seen that happening yet.
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    @cowsay i will never be god and you will still see things differently. You will! YOU WILL!!!!
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    My innocent rant somehow got invaded by commies.

    Time to rev up those helicopters.
  • 0
    @cowsay πŸ˜‚
    Chillax dude.. Time is always moving, people are growing and changing. Just as you dont have the same views as you had 5 years ago, in another 5 years they will look a bit different. They may change a bit, and they may change completely, but they will not stay exactly the same.

    On this particular topic i think you are going to have a change of mind sometime in the future.
  • 1
    @Chlodovechus I'm usually not in favor of that, but you should be gulaged.
  • 1
    @cowsay
    The main reason Brazil is in such a mess is because of Socialist corruption.

    Look at Chile. Unlike Brazil and Venezuela They have no natural resources of great value yet they are the most successful and prosperous in South America thanks to Pinochet amd his economic reforms.

    Brazil and Venezuela have tremendous wealth in natural resources yet they are crumbling because of socialism.
  • 1
    @Chlodovechus excellent point!
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    @cowsay
    At last, the ugly face of socialist collectivism reveals itself.

    You desire only to rob people out of their proerty, enslave them and silence all opposition.

    My only desire is to protect myself from your kind and live in a free society.
  • 1
    @Chlodovechus wait, that wasn't "just" a joke? Do you actually believe that the dude who's name is almost never brought up to date did good to the country?
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    @Chlodovechus please care to elaborate how Brazil is socialist.
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    @Chlodovechus Brazil has been completely drowned in neoliberalism.
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    @Chlodovechus private property IS theft.
  • 1
    @cowsay
    If I'm not correct, isn't the ruling political party in Brazil is socialist for years now?

    Inb4 "Oh, that's not real socialism"
  • 1
    @cowsay
    Owning private propery is theft but stealing money from people by force and giving it to others is not theft.

    Leftists not only can't meme, they also fail at logic.
  • 1
    @cowsay
    If Brazil is drowned in neoliberalism then it will become a global superpower in a few years.
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    @Chlodovechus all I want is for people to live in a free society where they can express their true creative and free nature. A society where people mutuality grow together.

    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"
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    @Chlodovechus what? No, just no. Brazil never had a "socialist" party in power. Currently we have a corrupt, non-oficial president that is taking many neoliberal measures and ruining the country. And he's backed by things like a huge think tank that spreads liberal ideals.
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    @Chlodovechus this dude is not relevant in any economic academic circle, sorry.
  • 1
    @cowsay
    Lula and Dilma Rousseff were not socialist?

    So by only sheer coincidence they belonged to the Workers' Party, which have the accursed blood-red star of socialism as their emblem?
  • 1
    @cowsay
    Yeah, because the academia is controlled by a globalist elite whose only purpose is a New World Order and 1-world governemnt.

    They use cultural Marxism, Islamism, feminism, Socialism and Nepotism as tools to achieve their goals, which are to enslave evry living being on this planet.
  • 0
    @Chlodovechus that's so common-sense. PT (workers party) contains mostly social democrats that'll make any kinds of deals to get in power, they're known to not be socialist at all, they can't even be considered part of the left.
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    @Chlodovechus cultural Marxism is not a thing. What's the problem with feminism?

    You seem pretty conservative for a liberal, oh wait, they all are.
  • 1
    @cowsay
    That's the favorite argument of leftists:

    If some socialist person/party/country is sucessful and popular:
    "See? Socialism works!"

    If some socialist person/party/countty is crumbling/genociding people:
    "Oh, that's not real socialism"
  • 1
    @cowsay
    I identify politically as right-wing libertarian with some conservative social policies.
  • 1
    @Chlodovechus but dude they are NOT socialist (laughing). They never called themselves that. Any political scientist would agree on this.
  • 0
    @Chlodovechus and I'm not in favor of what you call "real socialism", I'm an anachist.
  • 0
    @Chlodovechus "I'm a liberal and I want people to be free, oh, but women can't get abortions"
  • 0
    @cowsay have you ever seen a 7 month human embryo? You tell me that is not a human in a pre-baby form?

    What do you know about the "pro life" vs. the "pro choice" debate?
  • 0
    @bioDan well I know that ppl don't abort at the 7th month
  • 1
    @cowsay
    Abortion is murder whether we like it or not.

    Killing a baby human violates the baby's freedom. The mother has no legal right to murder him unless under very specific circumstances(e.g disease, rape, economic condition, young age, mental state etc.)
  • 0
    @cowsay meh.. Lets say the average is on 3rd month then, have you seen it?
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    @Chlodovechus some women don't have the economic status to keep a baby. Yes, abortion is a bad thing and it shouldn't have to be done, but unfortunately it's better than growing a child in a bad environment causing it to end up selling drugs.
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    @Chlodovechus yup, even system abortion!
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    @Chlodovechus
    Also, not legalizing abortion does no good, women (sometimes teenagers) die in clandestine clinics trying to get an abortion. Here in Brazil specially this is very common.
  • 0
    @cowsay its better for the woman to take responsability for herself and the child and grow up and make a better life for herself and the child regardless of any obstacles that will stand on her way.

    With presistency, courage and decency she can overcome in the most extraordinary circumstances.
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    @Chlodovechus
    If wealth was well distributed in my country, then abortion would be very rare, but wait, we have a government that constantly favors the dominant class.
  • 1
    @bioDan so easy for you to say, as if you had any idea of what this people have to go through. Imagine growing up in a place where your mom is dead and your father robs for a living because no one taught him better too. Then you become pregnant at 14 and that random dude just vanishes.
  • 1
    @bioDan hooray the baby's born and two lives are ruined forever!
  • 0
    Ok, guys, that discussion is taking an unpleasant turn lately - your not talking to each other but to random persons you seem to associate with your counterparts - resulting in identiarian and authoritarian reasoning.

    I don't think it's enjoy partaking in this. Still, have fun!

    https://xkcd.com/1081/
  • 0
    @bioDan and regarding the baby, until the second month it doesn't feel pain, it doesn't think, it has no individuality, it's just a bunch of cells.
  • 1
    @cowsay im not judging how people choose to live their lives and/or under which circumstances they are in their current situation.

    For the baby though, relatives like grandma or aunt or give to adoption would be better than death until mom is grown enough.

    Btw, some hunderds of years ago it was common for a 14 years old to be a mom.
  • 1
    @cowsay you and me were also a bunch of cells once. We still are a bunch of cells.. Intervening in their/our development is killing.
  • 0
    @bioDan
    that's the thing, these people have no choice. A 14 year older can't raise a baby, it won't know how. A hundred years ago we'd be using slave labor.
  • 1
    Okay, this is getting annoying. I just want to leave this saying that you ""libertarians"" should just try developing some empathy. Try thinking outside your luxury capitalism fantasy. Try remembering that right now as we talk there are children working inside coal mines for free, and they have NO CHOICE.
  • 1
    @cowsay
    We all have empathy. My arguments were not less moral than yours. We all wants whats best, no need to get carried away.

    Have an awesome day
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    @bioDan

    Sure, let's thank ourselves for at least reading what each other wrote, since I'm used to discussions where not even that is possible.
  • 1
    @cowsay Brazil is a sad story... Corrupt government is not capitalism or socialism, it's favoritism...
    But since you know you have a corrupt government why do you think salvation will come from giving them more power through socialist regulations?
  • 0
    @cowsay BTW I'm all for killing unborn babies at will.
  • 0
    @solocoder

    Again, as I said before, socialism can't just be implanted in a government as is. Socialism requires the current state to be dismantled and retaken by the people.
  • 0
    @cowsay what people? A government consists of millions of people?
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    @solocoder

    And by becoming more popular, any government is less open to corruption.
  • 0
    @solocoder the proletariat specifically.
  • 0
    @cowsay and you think they will not be corrupted by their newfound power? Because what? They remember where they come from? I don't think that's how it works... And even it will work what kind of welth share do you want them to do? Take all the rich people's assets and throw it at the people? Economy doesn't work that way, especially in global market where you want to be able to import goods (when you want your currency to have an international value)
  • 0
    @solocoder

    They alone produce society's wealth and they'll keep doing that, the difference is that they'll receive the full profit from production.
  • 0
    @solocoder regarding power corrupting people, I guess we'd agree on that, all I meant is that it's easier to happen when power is more centralized.
  • 0
    @cowsay that's a really nerrow point of view. It's like saying a manufacturing robot alone creates the product so he should rule the factory.
  • 0
    @solocoder

    That's just how capitalism works, as I said before.
  • 1
    @cowsay owning natural resources or land aside (that's not what produces most welth nowdays) how would you manage a factory or a high tech company differently than what's happening today? Each company spreads it's income based on what it earns? Equally (the cleaning lady earns like a programmer)? No income at all (won't work in a global market)?
    Also with natural resources, why would a dimond miner earn more than a coal miner assuming they do the same work?
  • 1
    @solocoder

    Well, clearly all I see here are doubts and misinformation regarding socialism. You don't seem to be trying to make a point.

    There are variations, but essentially Socialism is the socialization of the means of production. From that on you can search about anything that doesn't make sense to you. Also, I suggest that you read Marx's Law of Value, which has been proven right.

    Here's a very easy to understand resource on socialism and stuff: https://m.facebook.com/story.php/...
  • 0
    @cowsay I know Marxism... I don't agree with the"means of production" statement... It doesn't understand how actual value is created nowadays. I can have all the"means of production" and the labor that I want... If I don't market right, innovate in the right direction I will fail at "creating wealth"
  • 0
    People may hate a lot on PHP, but I personally love file_get_contents().

    It's so overpowered
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    Jesus this comment section is long
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    am I the only that reads all over again those tent comments and laugh, do I need a doctor :| ?
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    @gitpush medic medic 😷
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    @CurseMeSlowly let me check medicine box in the other tent :3 :P
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    Apparently this is the 300th comment!
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    301 Comment moved permanently
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    @PrivateGER it sucks we can't find comment 301, but 302 is found
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    @SZenC 303 See other comment
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    @PrivateGER well, that one is 304 not modified
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    @SZenC 305 Use Proxy
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    @PrivateGER 306 Switch Proxy man, that one isn't working
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    @gitpush 307 Temporary Redirect, look at above comment.
  • 0
    @PrivateGER 308 Permanent Redirect, comment on this rant instead https://devrant.com/rants/970614
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    Tike to make 92 comments so we can use the 4XX codes
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    @PrivateGER loool lets comment a char instead of writing full text in each comment :3
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    You guys are high on something πŸ€”
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    @CurseMeSlowly
    Ikr, what did I start? πŸ˜›
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    @coolq out of control now, you cannot end it anymore πŸ˜‚
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    @CurseMeSlowly
    No one warned me of this!
    Now who can I pass the blame to?
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    @coolq Trump πŸ˜‚
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    @CurseMeSlowly
    Good call πŸ˜‚
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