The state of operating systems in 2024.

Windows - has a user interface that changes with every update so Microsoft can push ads even though it costs $200

Mac - an unusable interface designed solely for consuming media anchored to hardware that costs 4x what it should

Linux - absolute freedom to do everything you want so long as you don't want to play games, connect to Wifi, or listen to audio

I'm just going to go be a beet farmer in the 1600s

Bruh, The Linux one hit home. My Ubuntu installation has such an audio issue.. I can pay someone for fixing it.

@SidTheITGuy Earlier this year, I tried to switch to Linux full time as my main OS. I use it 16 hours+ a day in a VM for work, so I am more than familiar with it.

I cannot begin to express how totally flummoxed I was just trying to find a wifi adapter that would even be detected, let alone one that would connect. That along with problems with audio, input, font rendering, and the whole system just suddenly bricking itself out of nowhere, I had to go back to Windows just to function.

How is everything related to using computer so awful now? I know it's possible for them to come up with something great - Windows XP and 7 are as good as it has gotten. It almost feels malicious at this point.

i'm saying it all the time here on this platform, and im gonna say it again. I have a full blown studio setup running on Ubuntu 20, and had no issues whatsoever with sound. I also play all sorts of games, including VR, and my whole steam library of 200 games works (except for like 3 games)

I'm sorry, but youre out of touch with Linux lol

@ostream I have an Asus ROG Strix G17 laptop with 32 gigs RAM, RTX 3080 graphics and AMD Ryzen 5900HX. With specs like this, you absolutely would hope that Ubuntu work out of the box.

@ostream Maybe using no name brands like NVIDIA and Intel and GIGABYTE and Corsair is where my trouble started.

I guess it is too much to ask that the built-in wireless and audio in the machine I built myself and spent $4k on would work out of the box. Or that the OS wouldn't brick itself just sitting idle.

"so long as you don't want to play games, connect to Wifi, or listen to audio" - strongly disagree. all the linux distros i ever had handled wifi and audio very well (up unto the point where _I_ misconfigured something because i like tinkering with stuff)

as for gaming: you ever heard of proton? that argument was valid maybe 20 years ago, but not today.

the only games in my collection that don't run on linux fail to do so solely because of some bullshit anti-cheat-protection that depends on installing rootkits deep inside of windows.

@tosensei "It works on my machine" isn't helpful.

Games may very well work now, but my audio and wifi don't work reliably so I can't verify that.

@cuddlyogre unless you want to configure a 5ghz AP, any intel wifi pcie adapter should work OOTB

@netikras What if I only have a 5ghz AP?

Also, if you're buying new [really new] hardware, don't expect it all to work right away, by default. Linux is community-driven, so the community has to have some time to come across the new hardware that lacks support, analyze its docs/rev-engg it, make augment its drivers, pass through the whole testing/approvals procedure and only then release to the public. And even then you can have some issues, as since it's fresh out of the oven, none had a chance to try it out and come across malfunctions, documment them, report, get some dev attntn, get the fix released - all this repeated for all the possible bugs.

1-2 year old hardware is generally OK on mainstream Linux with the mainstream [not the stable one that comes with the distro] kernel versions installed

@cuddlyogre 5ghz client works perfectly fine [using iwlwifi driver] with intel cards.

But you can't run hostapd with them to use your linux box as a 5ghz ap/wifi router. Intel fucked up massively there [enforced automatic region selection in firmware level... that doesn't work]

@netikras I built my machine this year so my hardware is brand new. Which is why I have trouble with basic things like audio and wifi.

Even though I understand why there is the delay, it is little comfort that eventually Linux will catch up because the only real alternative I have is to keep using my old machine or use Windows.

@cuddlyogre it's exactly helpful as "doesn't work on my machine", so your argument invalidates itself.

and trying to define the "state of operating systems" based on just _one_ machine that doesn't work for unknown reason, especially when contrasted with dedicated gaming devices running with linux by design (steam deck - heard of it?) is dumb.

@tosensei How a Steam deck performs is irrelevant. I don't have a Steam deck. I have the machine I built out of common parts produced by well established manufacturers.

I am not the only one that has these problems. Instead of solutions, the only response everyone like me ever gets is "it works on my machine".

My only sin, apparently, is that I needed to purchase old hardware so my OS could perform basic functions.

Or I could use Windows and have working audio and wifi.

@cuddlyogre what?
I bought my RTX 3090 used, when it still was the top GPU. Only ran it on my System, never had problems, except for crashes, after tinkering with undervolting and shit like that. However. Nvidia drivers makes my PC restart everytime i need to update them, which is super annoying. But i guess its for windows users all the same.

@thebiochemic I'm not sure what you're asking.

Ooops you woke up all the Linux fanboys

Can't complain, current Ubuntu can even use wi-fi networking and docker networks at the same time, and Mint looks better than ever.

Audio also works, even Spotify, unless your default settings mistake every headphone or microphone as a combined headset.

Windows 11 is just ... does this have anything to do with the Microsoft operating systems that I used in the past? If someone asks me how to do something on Windows, I'm baffled.

@cuddlyogre well, i've had many self-built machines over the years. and all worked well. you're the first case i've heard of where it didn't.

Apple and Microsoft go in the same direction: reduce configurability to a few distinct presets.

Enter their official app stores and you end up with something like snap, only that it's mandatory for managed/default profiles. Imagine development on a Mac without homebrew?

@usr--2ndry I loathe development on Mac. The terminal is missing so many keyboard shortcuts I can hardly get anything done.

I was gonna say that Pipewire fixed Linux audio, but then Minecraft crashed and took my Telegram call down, so maybe I was overly optimistic.

@ostream That is the whole point of my post.

Windows - works but I pay to be advertised to

Mac - unusable except for watching youtube

Linux - free to do everything I want so long as I don't want to do anything related to drivers that won't be available for months/years/ever

Every option available to me is undesirable.

I am not interested in spending $4k on a political statement when I need it to put food on my table. I need something that works.

@ostream Also, I mention the cost because if I, not knowing better, listened to the Linux crowd and built this machine for Linux, I would be out a tremendous amount of money on a computer that won't be able to perform basic functions for the next 18-36 months.

I need to chuckle about the expensiveness thing regarding Linux.

WiFi - yeah. Not gonna lie, if you want a recent generation adapter, its hard.

If N is sufficient, pretty easy.

I can unterstand the frustration though. There is no "truly" good hardware database.

Linux is a dominator / dominatrix in that regard.

If you don't whip it in shape, it will whip you till you cry.

I'm running Gentoo since 15 years plus.

Every now and then there is some small hickup - Pipewire, Kernel, bug in some software or just a general: this combination of packages led to the apocalypse.

Always the same solution: Hour of tinkering, masking package versions after reading the changelogs, recompiling, done.

The same could be done with a binary distribution.

One reason I learned to love system administration: An OS with its hardware and software packages is pretty much an living eco system on its own. Its intriguing how many variables are involved and how complex shit can be. I love those kind of riddles that drive you insane by the way.

Linux is the eco system you can manage. It ain't easy and a hard job sometimes, but you can find anything you want with dilligence.

Mac is the walled garden. If it doesn't work, spend some money or wait till they fix that bug to introduce few new ones.

Windows: if it doesn't work. Format and reinstall.

I think Windows 12 comes with the possibility to reinstall while keeping programs and settings intact. That feature alone is proof how fucked Windows architecture is in my opinion.

@ostream Replace Linux with MacOS and your comment makes more sense.

Linux is a kernel

@Linux hi kernel!

Meh, games are for kids anyway

@cuddlyogre i was saying, that my PC consist out of new and regular parts, and it works out of the box.
RAM and NVME drive from Corsair in there, GPU and mainboard from MSI, Intel CPU, Be Quiet! Fans and coolers. I'm yet to have a single problem, that is directly linked to the parts. As much as i hate RBG, but even this shit works out of the box, thanks to OpenRGB.

Maybe your audio and wifi are already supported in a newer kernel than your distro provides by default? Worth looking up.

@ostream The problem is, my previous computer was built out of the same kind of readily available parts from well established manufacturers, but from 10 years ago.

Several times during those 10 years I tried to switch to Linux, but I always ran into wifi, audio, and self-bricking problems. How long the Linux people had access to my kind of hardware did not affect the outcome of any of my attempts to switch.

I built my new machine from scratch - like I always do - this year out of the same kind of readily available parts from well established manufacturers, and lo and behold I run into the same kind of problems.

I really wish I could switch to Linux. It would make my work life so much easier and I would be free of Microsoft. But I can't. I need my computer to function as intended. Even if that means being stealthily advertised to and having all of my behavior logged somewhere. The alternative is to not have a functioning computer at all, which means I don't eat.

@cuddlyogre you're not buying just hardware when you buy PC components. The drivers are an intrinsic part of the product. Those should affect your buying decision.

@electrineer Oh I get all that. But why would I devote days to troubleshooting and limit myself to years old hardware just so I can make a political statement?

And like I mentioned before, even my old machine had these problems even though the hardware is very common. For all I can tell, Linux outside of a VM is some kind of practical joke.

@cuddlyogre no, I mean that you should buy products that allow you to do what you want. If you want to run linux, you buy products that have the drivers you need because the manufacturer put in the effort. You wouldn't buy a fridge and complain that it doesn't come with a freezer.

@electrineer I did that with my old machine. I researched for days to find a wifi adapter that worked on Linux before switching. Only to boot up and not have wifi, and no way to fix it since I didn't have an internet connection. The sound was a stuttering mess the entire time even though it's realtek. And since I didn't have internet, I couldn't update the graphics drivers, making that a mess as well.

After that I decided to just use Windows and skip all the rigmarole and headache.

Another source of irritation with all this is Linux people pretend this doesn't happen, so a lot of people go in blind and wind up in the same spot I did. Sometimes it's even worse because they don't think to have a plan b because stories like mine are drowned out with "nuh uh"s and "works on my machine"s.

My dislike for Windows but still needing to use it because nothing else works in the time I have available is the reason I created this rant to begin with.

For ppl with AMD hardware games run better on Linux now than windows (steam). As for wifi I recently had to load custom driver during Windows 11 installation on ThinkPad to make it work so let's say the field is getting leveled, just in wrong direction...

I play games on Mac, had isues with speedlinks nxjoypad, but figured it out, works ok and actually a lot of games I play are supported.

For Linux, oh boy, ubuntu 16 was fine, 18 was full of audio and wifi issues, 20 fixed all of that. I am talking about same old laptop. Now I run elementary and play games, even streaming to twitch on laptop from 2015. Some BT issues but very rare.

Windows, well wouldn't really know as I abandoned it around 2017. I was working on the projects with .net back then and windows were required to run it. When I quit that job I parted with windows.

I have another old laptop with win7, mainly for hacking my consoles( so using it like once every two years). The truth is when i power it up, i get frustrated after 5 minutes of using it becuse everything UX is so awful and the worst thing is win7 was the last best one I tried (i tried them all since win93.1 to the win 11).

You forgot or use a trackpad

>as long as you don't want to connect to Wifi

What are you talking about? I only spent about 2 hours trying to figure out what the problem was, another hour trying to find the correct drivers, about two more searching through my cables to find an ethernet and an adapter, then it's an easy peasy installation of the drivers. 5 hours tops.

@cuddlyogre You can install Bash and several of the same terminal emulators as on Linux on Mac OS.

@ostream last time I ran Linux on incompatible hardware, it gave zero fucks and worked anyway

I have had many hand-me-down computers from my family which run GNU/Linux just fine - the WiFi adapter included in most cases. None of them use GNU/Linux themselves - the computers are always running Windows when I get them.

I'm beating Batman: Arkham Asylum right now on a 100" screen in 4K with a gamepad sitting on a couch with great surround sound using WiFi two-way headset... on Linux. Where problem?

@cprn "works on my machine lol" is not helpful.

@cuddlyogre I'm not here to be helpful, geez... 🤷‍♂️

Really, though, I haven't had a single issue I couldn't solve on Linux since 2016 and for last 2 or 3 years I haven't had any issues running games on Linux at all. So the situation must be getting better, right? I use Steam Controller and Xbox controller without issues, I got Valve Index VR set (it has one issue, base stations don't start from the client, I need to run a script for that). Lately I upgraded GPU and RAM and it just worked after hardware swap. Can't rel.

@cuddlyogre Okay, I read some of your comments. IMHO here's the deal. You used Windows most of your life. You had issues in the mean time that were pain in the ass but you've overcome them and learned to solve them quickly. It made you a capable user and over time you fixed even harder issues and felt more at home. Now after using Linux VM at work for a few years you're trying to compare experiences but in VM rarely ever anything breaks so you didn't have much opportunity to become a capable Linux user. You know how to use the system, install software, etc, but you don't know how to debug issues because you don't know architecture of file system, sound server, Xwindows, inputs, etc. You haven't touched those parts in a VM. So it's frustration of a newcomer. But you had that with Windows as well, you just don't remember. And same as with Windows, if you stick with it and systematically deal with every problem, you'll become fluent and efficient. Way faster even, due to less hoops. KUTGW

@cprn Not only do I not have the time for that, I don't have desire to be some kind of tester for something that has been broken every time I've used it.

I used to love to tinker and fiddle with config files and custom builds that took hours, but my spare time is far too valuable and rare for that now.

The last time Windows gave me the kind of problems that Linux does is Windows ME. Everything after that just worked.

There is zero excuse for a system being passed off as a desktop os to have issues with networking, audio, and font rendering. On more than one occasion the system bricked itself just sitting there. There was some kind of race condition and an important file somewhere gets corrupted.

When you only have one machine available, you don't have any way to troubleshoot effectively, so you either go back to Windows, which works perfectly fine, or you flounder for days and reinstall Windows anyway because you need to get work done.

@cprn If you've read some of my other stuff, you'd also see that I despise being left with no option but Windows. I would give almost anything to have a Linux system that didn't require hours of fiddling to enable basic usability, but so far, no luck.

@cuddlyogre I was trying encouragement instead of "works for me" and you're acting entitled. You want to use something new but you don't want to put in time to learn it. You want others to set it up for you even though their needs are different. You didn't put in time and effort to research hardware that is known to work and support the OS and yet you claim you'd do anything to have a working Linux system. Dude, if you don't want to learn it yourself, go on a course or pay someone to set it up for you. Linux *is* a great desktop OS for people who are willing to learn. If you don't have time for that, then stay on Windows and stop whining. There's no middle ground. What do you expect people to say? Maybe start with dual booting and use Windows for work and Linux for less vital tasks until you get accustomed to how it works? Your rant is valid, you've had a bad experience, but few people here told you why. Maybe find a local Linux group so someone could come and help you over some beers.

@cprn I universally receive variations of "works on my machine lol" and your response is no different.

"git gud" is equally as unhelpful. I have been doing IT and Linux server admin for a very long time. I know how to read logs and follow instructions. None of that helps when something is supposed to work, but doesn't, and everywhere I look I'm told "git gud" or "works on my machine lol".

Needing my tools to work without days of fiddling is not entitlement. If my machine doesn't run properly, I can't work, which means I don't eat.

I would consider it unrealistic to suggest a person be able to drop everything they are doing for days so they can play around in a system that half works to try to make it mostly work. Especially when they already have a system that fully works.

Try explaining to a client or employer that you can't work because you're tinkering with something.

@cprn To prove the point one way or the other, I'm going to install it this weekend and see if anything has changed since the last time I tried. I will post my results.

I hope I have been wrong, because I really don't see a future where I can tolerate Windows for much longer.

@cuddlyogre It hasn't changed. I'd wait for Windows 12 releasing next year before wasting any more time on it. For the least troublesome OS, I recommend you just get used to the interface of Mac OS; or get a Chromebook as Chrome OS can do anything any other Linux distro can now, thanks to Crostini.

@novasurp I would rather do my job via bone marrow biopsy than use a Mac.

@cuddlyogre Then use a Chromebook... Bill Gates destroyed most of the options we should have had, but it helps if you don't outright dismiss the options we do have for no real reason.

@novasurp I recently used a Mac to build and release an app to the Google Play and the Apple store. I hated every moment.

I have several rants about my hatred for Apple products, usually coinciding with my iphone thinking different and embarrassing me in a message or wasting my time. But there's some Mac stuff in there too.

@novasurp I also used a Mac for the first 18 months of my job. That was almost 10 years ago and the experience did not improve.

Mobile operating systems:
- Android: owned by Google, one of the most annoying companies in the world. The phones don't cost as much as Apple's, but they sure are riddled with ads, malware, spyware, and idiotic features that make the phones run at 2 FPS.
- iOS: still Apple, still smartphones with 4x the price and UNIQUELY idiotic features (missing jack, glass that breaks extremely easily, lots of apps missing from the store because of this or that, etc.).

@Gaetano96 Did you use any of the Android One phones? AFAICT from owning about 8 different Android phones over past 12 years, 6 of them being Android One, there're no ads or slowdowns on a vanilla Android. All of that comes with the mobile carrier bloatware.

@cprn all the preinstalled Google apps are not bloatware?

@dontbeevil It depends, e.g. I use Google services like Photos, Drive, Calendar, Tasks, Keep, Assistant, Duo, Meet, Clock, etc - even a Calculator. Also, you can uninstall most of them without loosing functionality. Carrier bloatware OTOH is either protected and you need to root the phone first, effectively loosing warranty, or you can remove it but then something random, like a GPS or a camera, stops working because whenever an app tries to access it, it crashes without reason. At least that's my experience. I've seen it on girlfriend's phones as well so I stand by it.

ITT: mediocre devs learning what drivers are

yeah, maybe dont try to run your linux instance on windows hardware

oopsie

clowns

Ensure that your speakers or headphones are properly connected to your computer's audio output port. https://geometrydash3d.io