You go web developer when you can't handle real software development.

I don't care how pretty your website look, I don't care how many million request you can handle per second(you are probably using frameworks that happens to be the best only for 3 months, then you go another one). I don't care if we would be worse without web in general.

The basic truth stands though and you can't handle it.

And this is not even a :popcorn: post.

And as a developer doing both web and non web developmentI say you do not know what your talking about :)

Sure there are lazy or inexperienced developers doing bad code but that has nothing to do with web development, some if the worst code I have seen was not web.

And many times its not the dev that caused the use of libraries that then go out of support, thats a money issue and often management.

Either they hire the cheapest developers they can with no regard fir quality or they set impossible deadlines.

But unless your doing low level operating system development, micro controller development or similar your always using some kind of library that will become out of date, its all a matter of priorities and money.

Clearly someone can't handle the complex world of webdev.

Sure a shitty website can be launched in 10 minutes these days, now generate millions of dollars a month at scale with 0 down time.

Most of the work I do these days doesn't even have a UI but it's still web.

I can say a bunch of things about this "rant", but I'm gonna keep it simple for this guy.

Fuck You.

No "basic truth" there, Aviophile. Talking out of your butt.

Why start a flame war?
We all agree: Html and css is not programing.

All the other statements:

@magicMirror a web dev can’t post proper image.

@C0D4 not complex, just pile of shit. So much of a shit that they are changing king of the frameworks(not to smell the stink directly) every few months, each claiming to do what others can’t do.

And, if an illiterate clown ever makes money on web, it is because real deal guys put the infrastructure behind it.

@aviophile there are millions of companies and people making money from the web and infrastructure for the web is heavily tied into web development if you want high performance so unless you only referring to small pages build by single devs that sell their stuff only based on “using the lates frameworks “ and not based on any quality your still wrong.

Yes just like there are used car salespeople there are scrap devs selling crap to uninformed customers but do not label those as devs, they are more similar to phone fraudsters.

You are*
Amd if money making was a good argument for sth being good…

As an everything dev, i wholeheartedly agree.

webdev is annoying and somewhat pointlessly overengineered, but brings money.
the rest is interesting and challenging, and even brings joy.

I like both, but only because i like mostly all dev related stuff.

That's it, no pointe.

"real software development".

Last time I checked I can write:
SQL, T-SQL, Bash, Python, PHP, Scala, Java, XML-/XPath, C -/ C++, JavaScript, HTML, ... Probably a few more that I forgot. In a nutshell, if I want I can write in every language. That's programming.

Programming is easy.

Software development - if not done wrong - is hard.

Making a nice looking site is easy.

Making an interactive application backed by data is harder. Things form a system, a system means complexity. Frontend and backend form some kind of organism - it can be a nice organism or it can be a bitchy 4 year old throwing emotional tantrums. Depends on how good it was made.

Making a good interactive application, keeping things running without getting outdated, planning and migrating ahead of time, monitoring resources of the backend / frontend etc. That's software development for me.

And that's hard. Really hard.

...

Though I know what you mean. E.g. a web developer tried to sell me that it isn't bad that the typescript application has blocking code, making it only viable for one request per time as we could just spawn a few hundred containers....

But these are bad apples.

What do we do with bad apples?

We carve them. Put them in the blender. Make some nice apple jam out of it. No regrets.

Seems like you don't know shit about anything in regards to web development, otherwise you wouldn't have posted that shit.

😔

Can you blame it on a developer not further clogging up their brain with desktop interoperability though? It's the zoo of its own, mind. Saying that website clearly designed as software can't be an application is like sticking to the old speak, not acknowledging that language itself evolves - in the same vein, software development grows, whether you want it or not.

The webs just an I/O device. Code is code if you do it right. Web is usually most people's entry points because it's interesting, but the internet is just a communication layer. Same if you were built a desktop application.
Build your abstracts good enough, and your code won't give a shit where it's data is coming from

There are 2 kinds of developers: @aviophile and those too lame to be as cool as he is.

He is the coolest developer out there. Mostly because he's not some kind of a lame ass webdev. But also because he's a REAL MAN, writing codez for the hardware in assembly, because libraries and frameworks are but a pop-culture nonsense - they are for little sissoes secretly still sleeping with their plush unicorns.

P.S. Webdevs are lioooooozerz!!!

@Ranchonyx ok framework enjoyer

What technologies do you work with @aviophile?

The sad state of the average website shows that by and large, web devs are complete morons who don't even know basic shit and already fail to write valid HTML.

That's also tied to the race of the bottom plus the low entry barrier. If shit devs offer their crap for a dime, and customers accept that, the only winning moves for proficient devs are to either make more money by making the same crap, but with less dev time, or to leave the field.

Also talking crap, @Fast-Nop. The entire planet now runs on what's built by web devs. Enjoy Netflix, Spotify, booking your flight, buying your stuff... and it works on anything from a phone (of whatever type), to a tablet, to a laptop, to a PC to a Mac. You don't even know what it is you don't know.

@spongegeoff LOL Yeah the planet runs on web devs. Sure. For convenience stuff, but not for infrastructure or safety-related SW in fields like industrialisation, automotive, aviation, medical. Guess why.

@spongegeoff

Last time I heard insider talk about companies like Netflix, they - like any other site that has to deliver that quantity of data - had engineers custom tailoring FreeBSD and doing a lot of stuff you will never even dream of getting your hands on as a regular webdev.

While I get what you wanna say, be realistic.

https://papers.freebsd.org/2019/...

https://papers.freebsd.org/2022/...

If you can make headway through the presentation without your brain popping out of your skull, you are really good. But not a webdev.

PS: i can't make sense of all of it. Maybe 25-40 % but that's a rough estimate.

@Fast-Nop of cause you do not run machinery on web code, web is a display format.

Its quite possible though that the interface screens for said machines use html/web code.

As for security, that runs everywhere, in web also.
Andeven there most firewalls and tmrouters use webcode for the gui.

So yes industry and security are also dependent on webcode ;)

++ for kicking the hornets nest. lol

@Fast-Nop It's a long time since I heard a more irrelevant argument. Obviously, web developers have been developing the web, not the machine control systems.

@spongegeoff Backtracking from your argument, huh? "The entire planet now runs on what's built by web devs", that's what you claimed.

Also, just to drive the point home with Netflix as example: as I said, it already fails to deliver valid HTML on the main page. That's basic shit. Skipping a heading level shows further ineptitude.

Slapping the Aria role "link" on anchor tags is weird at best. What's also weird is throwing around useless Aria roles, but then failing on contrast checks.

On the upside, it shows that the Netflix web devs are better than average, as low as that bar is, because your average web dev doesn't even know what Aria is. The Netflix crew doesn't really understand it, but at least, they're trying.

Loading static resources from another subdomain is OK, but why over HTTP/1.1 and not HTTP/2?

I'm not in the mood to drill down further, but it's clear enough where this would be going.

@retoor i am in embedded software domain, rust or c mainly.

@Fast-Nop No, it's called the World-Wide Web and it is precisely that. Complex systems that make life better. It's just absurd to claim - as you do - that the people building that are "morons". @Aviophile thinks it doesn't matter what a site looks like and he doesn't care whether it falls over at high loads. Not an attitude anyone other than a baby would take into a client meeting.

@spongegeoff People who fail not on complex stuff, but on shit as basic as valid HTML are moron devs, and web dev is abundant with them. Your own example (Netflix) just proved it.

@Voxera @Fast-Nop @Demolishun

Do you see the irony that this guy aviophile called web dev "not real" software development, but chose to say this on a web-based platform?

looking at the amount of replies vs amount of ++
i think you hurt some people's egos @aviophile ..

oh well 🤷

@spongegeoff any field that has low entry bar as low as web development is doomed have disgustingly low average quality. My 35 year old ex teacher friend(from social sciences) try to be a web developer. Worst part is he can be! Since it doesn’t require any smell of intelligence.

@Sid2006 do you know how many times this shit app crash? Criticising some shit doesn’t mean I am not going to use it. Web dev is still for lower intelligence job.

@thebiochemic deep down they know the truth. Any mission critical software developer can be a better than average web developer in 3 months, or os developer or master race embedded developers like me. But reverse transition is not possible since web dev degenerates neurons.

You hurt many butts with this rant, kudos.

@aviophile Agaun your missing the mark.

Your correct in that the entry is low meaning many that should not enter the field, but that does not mean web devs are bad, just that bad devs often choose web development since its easier, correlation vs causation.

Its a common logical fallacy, “Post hoc, ergo propter hoc”.

Emscripten created a web library that could take a game written in c++, using opengl and run it in a browser with no problems “transport tycoon delux”.

And there are many other examples.

But for embedded systems or operating system there are a much higher learning curve so bad or lazy devs usually never make it there.

That does not mean there are no excellent web developers.

“Obligatory car reference ;)”
Its just like driving cars, getting a driving license is not to hard meaning there are many idiots on the road, that does not mean all drivers are idiots (just most of them :P)

@Aviophile I've proven my IQ more than well enough. God alone knows why you think programming non-web would be more complex, but I'm happy for people to judge your IQ on the statements you've made here.

@spongegeoff
Wikipedia says:
"While IQ tests are generally considered to measure some forms of intelligence, they may fail to serve as an accurate measure of broader definitions of human intelligence inclusive of, for example, creativity and social intelligence. For this reason, psychologist Wayne Weiten argues that their construct validity must be carefully qualified, and not be overstated."

furthermore:
"Some scientists have disputed the value of IQ as a measure of intelligence altogether."

@thebiochemic Clearly, I'm using 'IQ' as shorthand for 'intelligence', not as shorthand for 'IQ test result'. I'm thinking that can, to some extent, assess the intelligence (not the IQ test scores) of Aviophile and Fast-Nop on the basis of what they have written here. "There's bad html on some websites, therefore all web devs are morons" and similar.

@spongegeoff The issue is NOT that there is invalid HTML on SOME websites, but that this is the NORM. Even on a website that you yourself gave as example.

Also, if you can't even read properly, it's no wonder that you don't understand shit.

@Fast-Nop "can't even read properly" Actually, I took a First Class honours at Cambridge Uni for the Written Paper. I think you're confusing your own statements on html and Netflix with the ones I didn't make at all. But hey, all web devs are morons and you're the smart one.

@spongegeoff Well, given that you already fail to understand simple points, there's at least no doubt where you fall. Now go and develop some websites - with invalid HTML ofc.

@Fast-Nop I moved on from web development a while back, but I'd always coded to pass with a green on the W3C validator. So again, the reality is one thing and your perception of it is something else entirely.

@spongegeoff honestly, No. There's nothing clear about that. You're just using words wrong. Nobody mentioned IQ before you brought it up. What i did is clearing up why IQ has a questionable connection to what you think it does.

Coming back on topic:
The real OGs of web dev are the people who have nothing to do with webdev by itself and built the software, that powers all that Frontend and Backend nonsense, because its straight up is just regular old Software running on some Hardware or in some Container. Or the devs who built and maintain our Browsers, which at this point run in all sorts of Software. What about the people who built High Speed routing, Load balancing and Database software, Cloud Systems. But all this is not Web Development. Web Developers are just glorified End Users of that stuff.

And just to make my point clear, that is what a web dev is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

@thebiochemic No, you are really talking about what you think I think. As I have made clear, I'm using IQ in the normal sense of the word. No Wikipedia reference necessary, because it's (almost) universally understood.

"The real OGs of web dev are the people that have nothing to do with web dev..."

We don't really think the same way, do we? I'm done here.

@spongegeoff bunch of web devs think bad about me, who cares. I am going to be judged by my equals.

@IntrusionCM being able to write xml/xpath? What kind of talent is that? You don’t write xmls by hand or parse them. And XML is another bullshit format that is not good for anything. And xpath is even more trivial. It is like boasting about writing c macros, it is not a thing on its own.

Certainly, you are a CV pumper who thinks writing millions of abbreviation will convince people you are a master developer. If anything, your list says you are mediocre at multiple things.

@aviophile lol.

XML / Xpath is a standard, used in a lot of enterprise software. It is good for a lot of things, except when one thinks they're too almighty to deal with it. Software development means dealing with whatever you're given, no matter how much it sucks.

Your lil side rant and me calling mediocre shows in my opinion that you belong exactly in the category of "thinks they're almighty".

What do you by the way do when an API utilizes XML? Not using it because it's not good for anything?

You must be really fun to work with. Not.

Xml is a legacy bullshit and it is a fucking format. It can be learned in 10 min if you have brain cells. If you have to list xml to your skillset, you might as well add other file formats as well, json, txt lol

I am already dealing with xml because some shortsighted imbecile thought that verbose shitty format is good. That format sends 10 useless bytes for every useful one. I just use a library to gloss over it. It is a fucking map ffs, no skill required to understand it.

@aviophile If you want to be judged by your equals, go to a platform built by non-web developers.

Oh wait, that doesn't exist, does it?

Take this L and keep walking bitch... keep walking.

@spongegeoff What is the normal sense of the Word IQ then? And why didn't you just use whatever you wanted to use in the first place?

@aviophile youre not wrong. But C++ is also legacy shit and also still used everywhere.

@Sid2006 heh, if you resorted to personal insults, i accept your surrender. Now go study next month’s framework, kid.

@thebiochemic cpp is a programming language. Xml is just ashitty format. Web dev guy boasted with knowing xml, as if it was great achievement.

@aviophile I like XSL stylesheets. Have used those for some html intermediate transformations. Kind of fun to write. I chose XML format and then transform into HTML. The reason is so we would have flexibility to transform into another format in the future. I think I may change the output to QML for better control of the output.

@aviophile Given that most web devs routinely fail on delivering valid HTML, I guess XML counts already as achievement in web dev.

I wouldn't even be astonished for a web dev CV to list being able to turn on a computer by pressing the ON button. Or knowing how to use toilet paper without TurdPiss plugins.

@aviophile

I'm gonna bite just for the fun of it.

XML documents are *not* a map. The reason for the verbosity of XML lies in the approach of a human readable serialization of complex data types, unlike e.g. JSON which only allows simple predefined data types.

Complex meaning also user defined data types.

With DTD and XPath, XML becomes verifiable and easily parsable.

Which is the difference between e.g. formats like JSON.

When you say that you learned XML in 10 minutes and XML is like a map... Yeah. Then that shows a severe lack of knowledge and understanding.

Is XML verbose? Yes.

Is it intended to be verbose? Yes.

Is there an alternative to XML? No.

That's the simple truth.

E.g. as JSON can only serialize simple data types, most of the heavy lifting for serializing complex data types requires a gazebo of annotations or custom mapping definitions. Which brings me to one drawback of most other formats: they're entirely dependent on the serializer / deserializer and its abilities.

While the API for XML libraries might vastly differ, any XML document following an DTD should be parseable and can be used for serialization and deserialization.

XMLs verbosity regarding data to transmit has been a valid critic - but JSON isn't really better here.

BSON was invented for a reason, but even BSON is lacking.

Which is exactly why the future belongs *not* to JSON / YAML / ... or any other *text* based format, but rather to protocols auto translating to binary protocol data like GRPC with protobuf.

Which are an *entirely* different concept as XML or JSON - as protobufs binary format isn't human readable.

@aviophile I’m a Web dev and thoroughly enjoyed this. It’s been a lively and funny exchange, keep going down and you get to Wordpress! 🤣

@helloworld are wordpress devs “web developers of web development”? Kind of lowest of the lowest?

@IntrusionCM ok, i am updating it to 20 min learning time. Still not an achievement to show it in the skill list, especially along with programming languages.

@aviophile The only ones working with WP are those who don't have other options because even McD rejected them for jobs like flipping burgers.

@aviophile

I actually enjoy Wordpress for simple stuff. I have not yet spent the time to learn how to do "real" web development stuff. I wrote a plugin for my personal site like 10 years ago and it continues to function. I was expecting Wordpress updates to break it by now. Which I find interesting.

@Demolishun respect for the meme!

Bruh - it’s just bc they are hiring more people u old ass boomer

@aviophile Wordpress is at the pure shite end of web development. They are neither designers or developers, because neither would touch such a worthless piece of steaming, stinking, vomit inducing shite as Turdpress. If you are a Turdpress Monger cease and desist.

@helloworld this deserves a rant on its own

@retoor 🤣

@helloworld heh, yet it has huge market share:

https://tooltester.com/en/blog/...

@Demolishun So has MacDonalds

I think this is hard bait, and I like the OP. But I will just say that the last time another dev mentioned this to me it was a compiler dev, working on embedded language shit that was making about 40k less than I do building shitty websites.

No harm no foul tho, all good on this side of the world.

@ostream what a fucking retarded serial replying. I am living rentfree in your empty head.

Cry more bitch, didnt read.

When I was young my stepmother said "I had boyfriend that was a real programmer, hey uses hex codes and books, non of that crap you do with your C+1"

You put yourself in her category...