Stop f*cking calling me minority or part of a underrepresented group. Yeah I noticed I am one of the only women on a conference. I DONT CARE, I AM A PROGRAMMER NOT A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE. Hire me for my work, not because you want you company to be more diverse.

Fight the power!! 👊🏻

Good on you! :)

People lose sight of what equality truly means. They get lost on the aesthetic of it without having the foundational integrity to support it.

@NoNameCode exactly, it is luckily at the company where i am atnow. But this whole diversty discussion is driving me mad. if you want more women (or asian, african etc) or whatever; be a rolemodel by doing awesome techstuff. Not only by telling how stupid it is that it the techworld is not 'diverse'.

Nicely put!
All this sexism bullshit really needs to fucking stop.
Hire someone because they can do the job, not because they do or don't have a vagina.

We need to hire N more people from minority group(s) X.

No you need to hire programmers regardless of their gender or ethnicity. Having a minority quota is discrimination in itself and gives the person hired imposter syndrome because they cannot be sure they were hired for their skill or just as a pawn in a political agenda.

What we want is equal opportunity not equal outcome.

I agree and think this is a great point. I really dislike when companies look to fill quotas.

The way I see it, and like this rant is about, we should be trying to make a difference at the education level instead of trying to compensate during hiring.

I don't we should go out looking to hire more women or minorities because they are part of that group, but rather make programming education more accessible to those groups, which in turn makes more of them viable candidates based on skill.

I think a lot of this has to do with intern programs. I've always been a fan of internship programs trying to give some opportunities to maybe poorer people or groups that normally wouldn't have access to good programming education.

You'd be shocked at how many companies scream for diversity and then hire summer interns who are generally pretty wealthy/well-to-do, same race, who still need a ton of coaching, but probably nearly the same as an underprivileged student who you could bring on instead.

@dfox
Indeed. it is good that there is some fuzz going on about diversity. But the way discussions are going is what is bothering me. I feel awkward when someone goes in a talk: look around, do you see how? unrepresented women are here. *tries to dissappear*' You can talk about your awesome initiative for getting more people in tech without doing that, and without the "all white western men are evil" mentality

Once upon a time I was part of an interview with a prospect developer that, when HR asked the template question "What do you think you can bring to the company?" she replied; "Well, I am a woman". And that was it. Cue awkward silence.

it puts you ahead of other male candidates, so you can't complain!

What country do you live in? plenty of female programmers in London and surrounding areas.

London too. Never had the opportunity to be part of a dev team with a woman in it, but I'll take your word for it :)

@KyleSoBold huh maybe it's just the companies I work with lol.

Netherlands in Amsterdam, Utrecht area, they are scarce

At my client company, there's a lot of women who codes.
My current project leader also a woman, having a lot of experienced in the industry, and my project manager too. Both are well respected.
Furthermore, our best dev in the team, is a also a woman!

Hats off to the women who code.

@dfox the issue is normally that unless you get lucky then an internship is generally un- or underpaid, meaning the intern needs to be able to fund themselves (or by their parents) for the duration of the program. That is something far fewer people from poorer or minority communities can afford to do, further leading to their underrepresentation :(

@odbx that's a good point, though I was mainly talking about large companies like the one I have experience with. They pay interns very well (more than some full-time employees at some companies).

@dfox more than full-time employees? That's awesome! I was lucky to have a paid internship for the past 12 months and it has been entirely invaluable. Before I was offered that though I had only been offered three others unpaid and just wouldn't have been able to take them :/

Glad to know there are some other people who see the insanity of quotas. Hire talent not appearance.

THANK. YOU! Skills not diversity

@NoNameCode I already have one :) ghehe

@Keepertje respect! 👏👏

Somebody hire me please

@odbx actually a lot of larger companies are doing paid internships - I have had paid internships with NASA the past two summers (they pay HS interns $2,800 over 8 wks and college interns $6,200 over 10 wks @40hr/wk) and just had an interview with Union Pacific for a paid internship. So yeah. Paid internships are definitely a thing

@AngryDev I'm not saying they aren't a thing - just that there are far fewer of them than is needed, and that unpaid internships are still quite prevalent. Like I said, I had a year-long paid internship, but was also offered three year-long unpaid internships before that.

I am glad someone said it. I have thought it many times but devs younger than me are very focused on equality issues. I have been afraid to say that it has not been an issue for me.

i cant like this enough

@handle I honestly don't think anyone disagrees with you...

@Letmecode said in one of the first comments on this rant that "of course there is still discrimination"

But I think what is being called for here is fighting discrimination with creating equality, ex. things like blind resumes (no name so you can't tell race/gender, only skills), etc. not favoring any specific group.

@dfox its hard to do that though in the real world.

what needs to happen is the hiring managers need to change (and in alot of places, they have). The problem is, the only way we have to do that is laws...and we see how well writing anti-discrimination laws works out....

so were stuck in a spot where we need change, but cant demand it effectively....

@Letmecode i think what you mean is we WOULDNT need feminism if everyone was a decent human being.

It's the first time I hear a woman say something like that. Totally agree, I would feel like shit I knew I'm somewhere just because I belong to a group.

This is exactly my point, woman are treat as special rather than part of the collective.

Sorry you had to experience that on behalf of fellow male developers.

@koreus7 totally agree. It is crazy that saying we need to hire this person because it would make is look better is dumb. Maybe that can do the job but looks should not be the deciding factor.

I fear my opinion will definitely screw up the whole discussion lol

Anyways, only thing I'd really like to know is why we really don't see a lot of girls interested in this field.

@Letmecode Headshot!

@Letmecode it depends on the country as well. In Brazil quotas were created for black people in universities, cause more than 90% of the places in the top public universities were/are held by upper middle class white people. In other words, black people who study mostly in lower quality schools have little chance against them(because for historical reasons, are generally less resourceful)

@ezbie that makes sense. Thank you for the culture lesson of today.

I know that feeling. 😅

I hate that. In my class, we are 5 girls on a total of 70 people, and everyday it's the same "oh they hire you because you show them your tits", or "Well it's easy for you to find a job, you just have to suck the interviewer's d*ck". (I have IT class and IT job, like one day class, the other days job).
Don't be jealous guys, I have the job because I'm more qualified than you are.

In the country I live, people also hire because of looks, gender and nationality. Also freelancer is a synonym for unemployed. Planning to move to Magrathea soon.

May the Force be with you

@DroidPulkit live long and prosper

🖖

It infuriates me when people are hired for diversity, and then once they're there either they're like a zoo exhibit or their work is completely ignored.

now this sounds line a true rant

Superb!

When I started out in development in the late 90s there were all types of people programming. Why do we now have to count who is not a white hetero male. It is embarrassing the way people look for ways to be victims.

@AlexDeLarge Not really sure how I ended up reading a 2 year-old discussion.

You'd be surprised how many western countries, like Israel where I currently live, still have some backwards laws regarding women, just because they didn't have the common sense to separate religion and state.

While I do understand the aversion for some feminist groups or other SJW, there are still some battles to win, and if we don't fight for ourselves, no one is going to do it for us.

Thank you, this echoes my sentiment as well, as an asian guy. People are stunned when I bring this up. Sometimes I go along and say, I identify myself as "The space master, Conquerer of all" and I can see their face burning because I choose not to conform, lol.

Oh I bumped a 5 year thread. It came on my popup lol.

Thanks