388
mochi
3y

Just saw a recruitment post for a female speaker to join a female panel at a "women in tech" event. And it's by an organisation called "codelikeagirl". πŸ˜’

As a female developer, it gives me the upmost cringe to hear about any #women or #girlpower events. Do you really need to validate your ability and support because of your gender? Men don't go to #menInTech events, so why do you need to go #womenInTech events?

On the surface it seems all friendly and gender equality fluff. But if you segregate yourselves into an all exclusive group, isn't that the opposite of what your trying to "achieve"?

Comments
  • 13
    Insert "thank you" meme here
  • 5
    Yes and its 2017 already, gender equality in terms of work, pay grade, livelihood, lifestyle has already been achieved. Thank you for highlighting my concerns, from a girl's POV though
  • 1
    Would they advocate for creating a JAPgrammer to counter the Brogrammer?
  • 44
    @sam9669 umm, no. Women still get paid less, and sexual harassment is still way too rampant in tech. The women I know who go to these events go there so they feel less alone and have a support group that goes through the same shit.
  • 22
    @iam13islucky umm, yes. Because when you actually factor in everything and take two equally qualified individuals in the same situation where only the gender differentiates, the woman DOES NOT make less.

    But if you just look at all women and all men, and say, Raw average, you get a difference, but what that doesn't say is why, which in a lot of cases, is women deciding to leave the workplace before their male counterparts, or pursue lower paying fields.

    Now as far as everything else I don't debate, as I don't have the relevant statistics, but the pay gap is GONE.
  • 15
    So, by having a group that brings together women for a specific field you cringe? By having a group that supports women in a field that is still dominated by men you want to cringe? Because a group was made to support a specific group of individuals they are segregating? I see an environment being created to foster growth and provide support. Special interest groups are by definition "segregated". I can see the group name can be off putting, but I think it's a play on the "<blank> like a man" culture.
  • 1
    @laangi so how do you've gotten interested in computers and coding? And why are you a coder now and not a nurse or a kindergarden teacher?
  • 23
    I hate seeing this thread hijacked by men complaining about gender equality advocates. You are all missing the point of the original poster. Her saying that she wants to be treated equal does not mean that she is. The sexual harassment still exists. The wage gap still exists. The double standards still exist. So quit your bitchin and be the change you want to see in the world.
  • 11
    @brettmoan do you really believe all sexual harassment is overt? Sexual harassment is not always grabbing someone's ass. That's the same logic as saying a parent isn't abusing a child just because they don't hit them.
  • 11
    @heyheni
    Cuz making stuff with computer is fun and pays well. "Traditional" female roles like teaching and nursing never interested me and I would never be good at it.
  • 2
    But out of respect for the OP I'm going to bow out of this discussion that has become a bastardized interpretation of her intentions.
  • 34
    I've never been treated unfairly due to my gender. The guys at work treat me like a bro.
    Also never experienced gender pay gap (just got a promo for doing well). Isn't it illegal anyways?
    I'm just saying I don't get why some women need special gender groups or cry. They know they entered a field that men are naturally wired in. They should improve their skills rather than cry because​ they're female.
  • 2
    @tizo I said nothing about sexual harassment only wag gap....
  • 2
    @brettmoan my apologies. That was meant for @bioDan.
  • 7
    Something I saw a while back was this college humor video that was made sponsored/directed/written by a similar company, GirlsWhoCode, and It is so bad, they are literally a company dedicated to this and it's like they don't actually know the first thing about coding. https://youtube.com/watch/...
  • 14
    In Germany some companies even have equality officers, whose job is to ensure "women are not discriminated against" (protecting men is NOT a goal). The job is only given to women.
  • 16
    @laangi literally these events are for improving their skills. The high male ratio breeds macho culture and for many women, that doesn't feel very inclusive.
    Quit whining about others needs just because you don't experience them yourself.
    It's not about segregation it's about support and empowerment in a field primarily run by dudes.
  • 2
    @tizo I didn't say nothing about sexual harrassment being over. You are the one who is over interpreting and confused about the facts. Stop stomping on all men because of the actions of a fringe of them.
    There are many laws and regulations regarding sexual harassment and the law is enforced in the vast majority of western countries.
  • 4
    @Huuugo 😞 I don't want women to get discriminated against. But damn man! That sounds so absurd. Those women must find discrimination in a work place to justify/advance/keep their positions. Therefore they have an interest for discrimination to take place where they work.
  • 3
    @nicholai funny you are preaching to @laangie to not whine about other's needs which she don't experience herself, when it's exactly what you are doing.
    Self negation approved.
  • 1
  • 4
    Roses are Red
    Violets are Blue
    I can't think of a way to end this
    Oranges are orange
    Bananas are yellow
    Please stop fighting :'( and go download trello ^_^
  • 13
    Men don't need men in technology events because it's always been a male dominated industry.
    I think the women in technology events are there to encourage women to join, succeed and excel in an industry which (like many others) has generally seen the treated as less competent simply because they're female.
    To the OP, it's great that you have the confidence, ability and self worth to not want that support and empowerment, but unfortunately I think it's still something that's very important for women in many industries.
    Women still get the raw end of the deal an overwhelming majority of the time.
    To the guys complaining about feminists, grow the fuck up and open your eyes, read a bit.
  • 5
    @biscuit remind me to give a link to a biased article with an appealing infographic. The article will be based on assumptions and statistics which will NOT cite sources or how the research and gathering of information was conducted.
    Then I will be able to prove a point in accordance to your terms.
  • 3
    @biscuit your assumptions are wrong my friend. It is you who needs to do some more reading, preferably from different sources. I would recommend a podcast or an article on the issue of you wish.
  • 4
    @bioDan mate, the pay gap has existed forever, it is closing slowly but it still exists.
    That article and info graphic is based on researched facts, not just guesswork like your I'll informed assumption that there is no gap in 2017.
    Id urge you to do a bit of reading about it. From a blokes point of view, it's quite shocking.
  • 3
    @bioDan what are your sources?
  • 5
    @biscuit i'm sorry mate, I read the link you gave and there are no sources in it. Just an opinionated article with an appealing inforgraphic.
    There is no pay gap - the logic is clear.
    Business have 1 main interest - to maximize revenue.
    If women were cheaper labour force you would've seen much more women in the work force than men.
    People get payed for how they value their labour regardless of their gender.
    People get stomped on and exploited regardless of their gender.

    Wait.. no.. The dark forces of the patriarchy had a meeting 5 years ago and decided to increase the wage gap between men and women. Sounds much more rational.
  • 2
    @biscuit I'd gladly spam all my sources here, but start with this video that nicely sums it up: https://youtu.be/yNMiTxso4Q0
  • 6
    In a perfect world women wouldn't need any "special treatment" but it's not a perfect world...

    In the company I work for there are a 100+ men and maybe 3 girls working with tech stuff. At the same time we're having a hard time hiring skilled people.

    That is absolutely fucking horrible. Such a waste on so many levels. Anything that helps to alleviate that problem is great.

    I'm a guy by the way.
  • 5
    At least in Norway genders have a pretty high pay gap. Overall @ https://ssb.no/en/arbeid-og-lonn/... and IT @ https://ssb.no/en/arbeid-og-lonn/..., and this is in the third most gender equal country in the world (https://google.no/amp/s/...)
  • 2
    @biscuit there is no privillege for a white man living in Africa or Arabia.
    The U.S. census from 1995 to 2013 is not enough for you?
    O.k. I'm 33 years old btw, been working over 20 years in development position. In my tech company we have more women than men in different positions.
  • 1
    @bioDan you got hired before you were 13?
  • 4
    @biscuit yes. My first job was a summer job as an assistant Q.A. when I was 13 years old in a company named Madah-Com in Israel (1997)
  • 4
    @biscuit lol so typical of your kind to attack a person rather than confront the idea. I wonder how many more buzz sound bites/adjectives you can use..
    I think your attitude is the problem dude.
    Now fade away please.
  • 11
    @laangi: Kudos on turning a programming forum into A MOTHERFUCKING POLITICAL WARZONE.
  • 8
    @biscuit
    Dont show me the "White male" card...
  • 5
    In my opinion, the most effective way to combat inequalities is at the source.

    If you have children, let them play with dollhouses and soldering kits, regardless of their gender. If there are kids in your family / friends circle, give them a present which broadens their horizon.

    I don't think organizing a woman only (or black people only, etc) event is a great way to integrate minorities into a field. Just empowering one camp is going to be counterproductive if you purposefully isolate them.
  • 2
    @bioDan what's my kind?
    The buzz(words) sound bites were all presented in his video titles and what he said in them.
    His attitude is the epitomy of oppression, whether it be by race, sex or religion.
    You picked a shit role model dude.
  • 1
    @Linux but we are, like it or not it makes life smoother... Add in rich...
  • 1
    @laangi sorry for the hijack
  • 4
    Imagine a #codeLikeAMan event, people would go crazy sick about it.... Lets do it.
  • 3
    It a tough topic to discuss really.

    On one side i can see it encouraging for women to go to events where there they don't feel isolated but on the flip side i want you to integrate with the rest of us and join us at "developer" events and balance out the numbers to actually acheive equality rather than elitism.

    Sure the industry is dominated by men but i never have viewed that is a fault of men nor have i ever seen someone say you cant be apart of this industry because of your gender.

    If i saw that then i would speak up because this industry is here for anyone that wants it, plain and simple.
  • 4
    @biscuit lol man.. You can't get by personal attacks? Why do you hate him so much?
    And he is not my role model, but he does speak to the point, has his facts checked, and doesn't act like you and your kind do with all the personal attacks.
  • 4
    I agree with OP 100%...I have always said this.
  • 8
    @biscuit "your kind", to use buzz words as you like, refers to the snowflake, beta male, social justice warriors mentality
  • 0
    @bioDan What's wrong with social justice?
  • 6
    @gloslistan the ideology, the premise, and the way they conduct the war
  • 3
    56 comments, fuck me.
  • 3
    What's sad is studys seem to Indictate that women are perhaps even more capable than men at programming. We're just bias. Sorry on behalf of my gender. http://bbc.com/news/...
  • 2
    @gloslistan Those were confirmed to be fixed and BBC has since apologised.
  • 2
    @bittersweet haha I don't recommend letting any children play with soldering kits. Maybe that's just because my cat is wrapped in bubble wrap but Lego is cool too? Little bits (the electronic engineering toy) are colourful and safe too.

    I completely agree with your point though- little boys and girls need to be empowered from a young age to do whatever they want. More men than women work in tech, and I find that changes product that they develop. I find very few feminine apps that are not patronizing. (Bellabeat leaf app is an example of an app that is not patronizing, most period tracker apps are...)
  • 5
    @biscuit
    Well, start with yourself and dont project your issues on others.

    You do not know me, so fuck off.
  • 1
    Wow, new chat room ideas :
    Politically critical topics - superbly active participation
  • 3
    Roses are Red
    Violets are Blue
    Please end this flame war
    And say "I love you"
  • 8
    @biscuit
    So you are assuming that I am a white male only because my profile picture is? And you are assuming that I am well paid too?
  • 1
    @TacticAlpha Well that was easily the most sexist thing I've seen this year.
  • 5
    @eedrawso My mom taught me to solder little logic circuits (latches, timers, flipflops) and how to code on the C64 when I was 8. My dad thought that was a waste of time, and mostly taught me chemistry, english and cooking.

    Of course you shouldn't just give your kid a soldering kit, but with a little bit of oversight it's a superb way to learn.

    Kids need to learn about dangerous tools as well.Your job as a parent is not to prevent them from getting hurt, but to protect them from permanent harm.

    You could always let them mess around on a breadboard first, and then do the soldering on PCB together.
  • 6
    You now have +500, you had +499 before I tapped plus. 😊

    Sorry, couldn't resist.
  • 3
    @bittersweet true. That's awesome that you were exposed to that at such a young age actually. Sounds like you have amazing parents.
  • 4
    @biscuit you're need to check your premises. You're arguing on flawed logic not backed up by facts. In fact even the site you chose, the info graphic has a toggle.... Click it, educate your self. The "wage gap" is mostly an age/experience gap" people with both equal age/experience get paid very equal regardless of gender. The gap in the total, is mostly due to: total number of employees(of the genders) at each level of position/experience. It's common for women to actually leave the work place than men. In self reported reasons, it's normally given as some variety of the answer "to spend more time with family" or "to presue other interests"

    I'm not arguing that women should be paid less, I too AGREE that people should be paid equal regardless of gender, and that pay should be based on merit/value. Gender is irrelevant to an employer. I don't see a gap, when you look at equal jobs and equally qualified candidates.
  • 9
    @Ashkin

    I hope most people realize that you can support equality and oppose racism/sexism without going full retard liberal idiot social justice warrior screaming that all white men are privileged evil oppressors and must die in the most horrible way possible.

    Sadly US politics (and EU more and more as well) is heavily polarized, and it seems difficult to fight for a middle ground of common sense.

    I view myself as moderate. I think education and science deserve to be the center of attention in political debate. I like good roads, and good public transport. The unfortunate need our support, but we don't have to become a communist state to do that.

    You know... moderate. Maybe even pragmatic. Those seems to be dirty words. It seems like you must choose between being an extreme leftist liberal idiot or a conservative authoritarian bigot.

    Why the fuck is it not acceptable anymore to have a reasonable, measured opinion on a subject?

    /rant
  • 4
    @bittersweet Agreed.
    I'm a libertarian, and very very close to center.
  • 4
    @Ashkin same. @bittersweet pragmatism is the way to be
  • 3
    I haven't read the whole thread (too long) but: who needs feminism? What we need is equalism.
  • 7
    And I thought DevRant was politics-free zone.
  • 6
    I disagree. It's important to have mentors and role models to whom you can relate.

    While I have had several great male mentors and role models, none of them can relate to being a woman, being a woman in a male-dominated field, nor what's it's like to get into the field after being a stay at home mom.

    There are far more men these days that have been stay at home parents. However, almost inevitably, if one parent has to stay at home when a couple has kids, it is the woman (assuming a heterosexual relationship).

    Really tired of the snowflake crap already. "Your views are different than mine, so I'll resort to grade school name calling! That'll teach you to think for yourself!"
  • 2
    @dsteiner everyone does
  • 4
    @Letmecode well put my friend. I couldn't say it any better myself.
  • 4
    From my perspective, knowing that my girlfriend is quite into this stuff, creating a woman only event is not to directly exclude men or segregate for any bad purpose its just that women are socially conditioned to be wary around groups of men or lone men and instead of investing in the event, it would create a distraction because instead of focusing, they'd be constantly doing a subliminal threat analysis.

    So to create a space without Men, lets women focus on the topic at hand and makes them less tense about their surroundings and therefore the purpose of the event, is easier to achieve.
  • 2
    And the whole "womenintech" stuff matters a lot because its attempting to get more women involved in what is normally a toxic brogrammer environment.

    If you as a woman are starting your career in tech and you turn up and its full of icky men who try to hit on you, or make fun of you before you get planted and make a foundation for yourself, you tend to bail and quit very early.

    So these places exclude certain people in order to make sure you get founded in your principles and can defend yourself BEFORE! You need to deal with those kinds of people who might make you quit in the first week.

    Also, men who go to those events are typically not brogrammers and genuinely want to help women to join up because ultimately it detoxifies the culture and whilst men dont explicitly want women to put themselves in the firing line in order to detoxify a culture created by other men, lowering the amount of testosterone in programming would be a good thing for everybody involved
  • 1
    @chrisalexthomas I get what you're saying and I have no problem with that as long as the reciprocal situation would also be ok to have (i.e. - switch the genders in your argument) - for the first post.
  • 0
    @mykalm would you be sad if they died out?
  • 2
    @bioDan the wage gap is a widely reported issue and if you think its not true, then I simply think you dont WANT to believe it and nothing would persuade you otherwise.

    Stop denying other peoples reality.
  • 1
    @Huuugo that's because men as a whole dont need protecting, if you have two groups, one which has 90% that needs protection and the other which needs say 1% protection, then you go with the 90%.

    This is obvious
  • 1
    @Linux why are you complaining? You are a man and can already get almost any IT job you want....
  • 1
    @bioDan the issue about pay is widely reported and you an find stats for it everywhere, quit bitching because you got proved wrong, quit denying that women get paid less than men merely because they are women.

    you're making yourself look absurd
  • 1
    @bioDan howevere there is privilege in Arabic countries for being male, why was this not obvious to you?
  • 1
    @bioDan you wouldn't need to switch the genders like you suggested, since by default men dont have those problems. But if they did, then go for it
  • 4
    @chrisalexthomas well.. As a man working in a predominantly women work environment, with 2 women in the office, I disagree.
  • 1
    @bioDan well that doesnt make sense mate, since if the stats say its true, and you are saying its not true, then by definition you are arguing with the stats.
  • 1
    @chrisalexthomas - I have already been over this.
    I'm not arguing with the statistics. I'm arguing with the conclusion 'women get paid less' - it's just not true. Not from my personal experience, not from my logical point of view.

    Here is a reasoning that I agree with:
    https://youtube.com/watch/...

    And more on 'gender equality':
    https://youtube.com/watch/...

    I hope this helps. Have a great day!
  • 5
    @chrisalexthomas
    Actually, here in my country being a woman in IT gets you any job you want in IT. Because companies want equality and therefore choose women only because she is a woman - not because she is competent.
    And because she is not the most competent the company can argue to pay her less.

    Dont get me wrong, there is MANY girls with alot more knowledge than me. But when companies choose candidates only because they have a vagina - it is wrong.
  • 2
    @bioDan ok, in your personal experice, but do you think that it might be possible that your personal experience is great and for others, in general, it might be awful?

    For example, we all live in bubbles and if might just be a nice bubbls for you to live in. But for myself. Where I deliberately expose myself to many other peoples problems and issues, I can tell you that it appears far more likely that for the most part, women are paid less and treated badly because they cannot survive in this brogrammer culture which objectifies women

    Once you start looking outside your environment and into other people's, you find that its not so great afterall and I'm telling you, that this does exist and ive seen it and read hundreds of articles about it, so it must be a real problem.

    I'm happy that you dont have this scenario where you are, but dont deny other people's reality, which can differ greatly from your own
  • 1
    @Linux yes it is wrong and yes some companies will do it and they are wrong to do it, but it's a tiny problem and not statistically important, for one company that does this, a hundred wont.

    So it just doesnt matter and you probably can get almost any job you want anyway, so apart from you feeling its unfair, it probably doesnt hurt you at all, stop acting so delicate man, toughen up a bit
  • 1
    @bioDan that doesnt change anything, just because stats are just numbers and truth is not a number, doesnt mean that stats cannot prove an idea has validity

    This is just basic logic man...
  • 6
    @chrisalexthomas
    Sorry. but you are lucky that your government does not force the companies to do so unless they want to pay a fine when the year 2022 arrives.

    I am not fucking hurt either, and I wish I could get that job in the town I wish to move to with my family but the company told me that they wanted to have diversity and therefore I am not a candidate.

    Time to wake up dude.
  • 6
    @chrisalexthomas
    Why should they need a helping hand if we are equal? I just do not get your point really.

    Where is my advantage of being male? There is none, please enlighten me. I have never had a colleague who have claimed that they are sexually harassed on a daily basis, have you? Maybee you are the one who harass?

    I feel sorry for you that you grew up in a environment without any problems, and because of that you came up with problem that do not really exist.

    I am just saying that companies should only hire people based on competence and not vaginas/penises. I really do not understand why that is so hard to understand and why that is something bad.

    Women and men are equal, and shall be treated like it! You are not promoting that!
  • 5
    @bioDan

    You are talking to a fucking pile of stones with twisted reality, dont waste time.
  • 4
    @chrisalexthomas

    I dont. Only because the industry is male dominated does not mean a male is privileged.

    Let's talk about women dominated workplaces then. Does that mean they are privileged? According to you they should!

    You cant change my mind to believe something that is just made up.
  • 5
    @chrisalexthomas No - tipping the balance toward women is adding more discrimination to a situation where you already have checks and balances to deal with discrimination.

    And suddenly you are the expert on all things that happened since time began.

    OK @Linux, you are right my friend. There is no point - they just don't want to understand.
  • 6
    @chrisalexthomas those are the most silly arguments i've ever heard.

    Can you find more extreme fringe examples?
  • 5
    @chrisalexthomas

    Oh, I thought you lived in Berlin and not Saudi Arabia. That explains it.
  • 6
    @chrisalexthomas - your deduction is so bad, i'm sorry you are so biased towards your opinion. In the example you gave to @Letmecode, you assume the woman didn't get the raise because she is a WOMAN and not because the way she performs in work.

    I BET YOU that if she had an integral or crucial role in the company - she would've gotten a raise.

    I can't stand this beta male virtue signaling mentality - it's so indecent and one sided. BE MORE PRAGMATIC WILL YA?
  • 4
    @chrisalexthomas - sorry, you can't change our minds with bullshit arguments from authority and opinions.

    I wish you would try with logical arguments instead. Then maybe we would have a healthy discussion and actually get somewhere.

    Also if you had a decent and civil approach maybe the bullshit wouldn't taste so bitter.
  • 4
    @chrisalexthomas omg she CREATES TEMPLATES!!! yeah that must be a crucial job which no one else can do.
    sheesh..
  • 5
    @chrisalexthomas oh wait.. another woman does the exact same thing..
    I guess its not that crucial after-all ;)
  • 5
    @chrisalexthomas anyway - thanks for proving my point once again.
    And you can keep your little insults to yourself, I don't care what you think about me.
  • 1
    @bioDan you obviously do care, otherwise you'd not be commenting now
  • 6
    @chrisalexthomas - again with the flawed logic. pull request rejected.
  • 4
    @chrisalexthomas @biscuit - I am willing to change my mind when presented with logical, reasonable facts.

    You both fell short of supplying them.

    You both stated clearly that nothing will change your mind.

    Please try to think hard and honestly answer - who is more closed minded?
  • 4
    @biscuit so well documented you couldn't even cite one.
  • 2
    People arguing about not important stuff and throwing fallacies if they don't have any more arguments. This comment section couldn't get more toxic.
  • 5
    'social justice' is an appealing sound bite disguising a shitty concept in theory and immoral and ineffective in practice.
  • 4
    @chrisalexthomas - oh really? you know my argument very well? present it then..

    What is my argument for the 'wage gap' myth?
  • 2
    @bioDan how is advocating to treat people with respect and equality, any of those things?
  • 5
    @chrisalexthomas - i see you don't know my argument very well :)

    and regarding your latest question, you may think you are advocating to treat people with respect and equality, but actually you are doing the opposite.

    you haven't treated @Linux, @Letmecode, or myself with any respect. You dismiss our arguments by asserting that we belong to such and such groups and categories, and that we think or believe in such and such things by flawed deductive reasoning.

    Respect is earned when basic courtesy and respect is given. Respect is also reciprocated, so if you don't pay me no respect - don't expect to get any in return.
  • 3
    @chrisalexthomas well, if you 'know the argument i'm trying to represent' - (suddenly it's not my argument but another's argument which i rely upon)

    Then present to me that argument instead.

    If you KNOW IT VERY WELL then you must know how to put it in simplistic terms..
  • 4
    @chrisalexthomas - i'm not complaining about your lack of respect. I'm just showing you how ambiguous and far-fetched your claims are.

    Still you can't present my argument (or the one you claim I'm relying upon), how surprisingly unsurprising that is.
  • 0
    @bioDan my claims are so far fetched, that with a single Google query, you can find a dozen of sources to back it up, from tech leaders, CEOs of companies, to studies that researchers far more qualified than either of us on the matter have done.

    But all of those things, dont matter to you, because I didnt copy and paste them here for you. Jfc.....
  • 4
    @chrisalexthomas -

    "The fact is, that there is clear and irrefutable proof of discrimination, harassment and inequality in the tech industry, and if you or your fellow cohorts cant see that, then that's not really my problem."

    And still, with all that 'irrefutable' proof you felt short of citing a single source.

    keep it up with your wishful thinking and imaginary machine, but don't be surprised when the truth comes knocking on your door with that kind of thinking.
  • 4
    @chrisalexthomas - its just shows that you are full of bullshit arguments. I'm done venting, ciao.
  • 4
    @chrisalexthomas Even if you did care, you can't educated me with flawed reasoning and logic.
    Whatsmore, in the education I'm expecting to get - I want to be exposed to both sides of the coin. That's why I think you are not educated enough yourself on the issue. You are too one sided.

    Also, I never asked to be educated by you, nor I want to.
  • 4
    @chrisalexthomas hahahah! It's like you're a human lorem ipsum generator. Your words make no sense!

    Educating people that already agree on your side of the argument, very effective 😏

    Another classic example of your flawed logic πŸ˜‚
  • 0
    If you didnt know something I was educating you on and I told you the agreed answer, then how would that mean I'm educating people who already agree with me?

    I mean, you literally are not making sense now, your last message, is nonsensical and I'm not even sure you understood it
  • 3
    @chrisalexthomas - i'm very straight forward, but if you didn't understand - allow me to elaborate.

    You wrote:
    ".. After that, I will only educate people on the one side of the argument, that 2+2 is 4 and that's the end of it. .."

    If you have an argument, let me pick a random one 'there is a pay gap between men and women'.

    I say 'false'
    You say 'true'

    Now you go educate everyone which say true (i.e. - your side of the coin), that 2 + 2 = 4 or some other dumb tautology.

    How very effective (not).

    But I can see from your logic that you are interested more about the end-results (i.e. - the answer), rather than why and how that answer came about. Which is fine in cases that you don't care too much for.

    But for this issue, which you do care about, is not good.

    Therefore you are the one who needs to get educated, not about the end result, but about how and why your answer came about being what it is.
  • 0
    @bioDan you're missing a crucial fact, people already acknowledge there is a pay gap, some outliers like yourself would say otherwise, but you are like flat earthers, not statistically significant

    That still doesnt address how I would be educating somebody who already agrees with me, as you mentioned in another one of your comments
  • 0
    And I already know how my answer came into being, do you think I just randomly picked a side here? I'm perfectly able to understand how and why I came to the answer I came to and I'm secure in its reasoning.
  • 3
    @chrisalexthom you say 'fact' and then you actually give an opinion.

    Your words are vague and arguments are incoherent.

    Perhaps you mean well but you can't seem to communicate your point.

    I can't dumb myself down any lower, you just don't want or can't understand. Sorry.
  • 0
    An opinion becomes fact when its proven with enough certainty.

    Just like a hypothesis becomes a theory, when enough evidence has been given to support said hypothesis.

    So because you refuse to listen, puts you in the same category as flat earthers or climate change deniers.
  • -1
    My points have been understood by other people, the fact that that you cannot understand them leads me and probably others to believe that the problem isnt with the arguments I'm presenting, but with the person (that would be you) who is attempting to understand them.

    Your arguements on the other hand are simplistic and easy to disprove, a casual Google search is all that was required.

    Try it, I'm sure you'll learn a lot
  • 3
    @Letmecode you are right my friend. I give up. His supercilious indecency and fake confidence is appalling.
  • 7
    @chrisalexthomas here's the thing you don't get.

    When you actually account for all the variables such as: job title, time in the position, preformance at the company, time at the company, education, work location, etc. There is little-to-no difference in pay for women and men. It's only when you don't include those and compare them equally that you see these drastic differences in pay.

    None of these guys @bioDan @Linux @Letmecode WANT a difference in pay. They all agree that women SHOULD be paid equally to their male counterparts, what they are arguing is that women ARE being paid equally.

    You'll find ZERO studies that control for the job attributes as described above and actually show a wage gap.

    So that's what we were saying that you repeatedly didn't understand, and vilified them for. Not for saying "women should get paid less" not for saying "woman deserve less" but for saying "that's already happening, why are you fixated on this?"

    Congratulations dueschbag
  • 4
    @brettmoan bravo πŸ‘ you articulated my point exquisitely! Thanks 😊
  • 0
    Jesus fucking christ guys, it took a single Google search to find enough information on the inequality and pay gap to bury you.

    Your arguments are disproven time and time again, I just cant understand how this is so difficult to grasp hold of.

    So, I am done with this discussion now, if you cant read and understand what everybody else sees, then I am done trying to explain it to you.

    https://glassdoor.com/blog/...

    https://google.com/amp/...

    https://danluu.com/gender-gap/

    https://fastcompany.com/3053226/...

    https://google.com/amp/s/...
  • 4
    @Letmecode

    Well, that is some real sources, not some random crap like the other dude
  • 3
    @Letmecode lol πŸ˜‚
    Thanks for the links!
    Just by looking at them I could see your sources are much more solidified and less biased than @chrisalexthomas links.
  • 4
    Just as @brettmoan said, I think that EVERYONE should be paid equal for the SAME job.

    And companies should not focus on getting "more women" or "more men" into different businesses - they should get PEOPLE that can make their company profit.
  • 5
    @Linux fuck diversity, we are all the same.

    But seriously, lets segregate stupid people.
  • 6
    I love how @chrisalexthomas's rep decreased so much.

    But seriously, liberal ideals and methods are so nonsensical and contradictory. It's kind of amusing, except they hold onto them with such aggressive fervor that it's actually kind of scary.
  • 4
    @chrisalexthomas so let's talk about glass door for a second.

    The report itself has many flaws in the accounting. And the only metric that you can actually get, and which I firmly believe is something we can change, is the pure number of women in stem jobs. From the numbers you can see a much larger number of men than woman, (which we all already knew) and that's something we should address as a culture. Tech isn't and shouldn't be "guys club" we can fight that by promoting stem fields to women from youth to young adults.

    However you cannot compare salaries for example as this report does, of engineers with 4.4 years of experience vs 6.9 years of experience, look at a disparity in pay and yell inequality.

    Secondly, you cannot use "mean" years of experience and "median" years of experience to get a good metric to compare across.

    If they wanted to get a good metric, you would actually scatter plot the individuals by pay/years all of the same job title and see the trend
  • 4
    This. Thanks, OP.
  • 5
    @Ashkin yeah I'm going to go with scary.

    Or dogmatic, religious zeal.

    Honestly I see more religious zeal and dogma when talking to liberals similar in attitude than when I attend church. /shrug
  • 5
    @mykalm I agree. Both the far-left and the far-right are horrible.

    I was referring to his lack of sense, overly-aggressive attitude, and method of "arguing" moreso than what he was saying, though they all definitely fit.
  • 4
    πŸΏπŸ€—πŸΏ
  • 5
    @gloslistan you ask what is wrong with social justice?

    1/ social justice done bad : discriminating the majority over minorities (racism against white people)

    2/ pretenders : I see lots of people on social networks pretending to be autistic while only being dsm-4-nos or faking to get a unique social status and making real autists have harder times, and making it feel like something that can be overcomed (pro tip:it isn't)

    3/ decision blurring : being forced to hire the first woman available due to legal pressuring even if its competence, behavior or ethics are shitty

    That is why social justice is a double edged blade. It has few benefits, but is nevertheless harmful to minorities
  • 4
    Holy shit this is a lot of comments. 198.
  • 4
    I feel you, but if these events help bring more females to the industry, I'm for it. Here where I live, I can count the number of women who code with the fingers of my hands. And they are all taken :(
  • 2
    201 comments counting this one, damn
  • 4
    you ... i like you you're awesome fuck them shit with their gender identity politics. a dev is a dev vagina or not all that matter is them skills.
  • 1
    Holy fuck. This has amassed a lot of comments.
  • 2
    @sam9669 fedora's, fedora's everywhere.
  • 4
    This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of organizations that promote, validate, endorse, and encourage women in tech. Saying that bringing light to the fact that STEM jobs are predominantly held by men is segregating women is akin to saying that the campaigns to earn women the right to vote segregated women.
  • 10
    In an environment where like 98% ish is male, it's just nice not to feel alone. I was the only female out of 32 people in our computer science class. I would have loved to have someone to talk to, about coding, life in general and girl stuff. The guys only talked about porn, wanking and which STD names they should name their variables (I'm not kidding). Easy to feel lonely in such an environment and I would have loved to join any get-together with other females.
  • 2
    Events like this oppose the got damn idae of giving confidence to all those girls who are doing a damn good job everyday at whatever field they are working..They make them belive that they are not good enough and puts in inferiority complex..Treat every wonen as individual..be proud on what ever they are doing..and most importantly dont confine them in any barrier. In this era we, wemon should stop fighting on proving the point that who is better..man or women.They are always reciprocal.. Accept!!
  • 6
    @dfox, a jump to bottom of thread feature would be nice.
  • 3
    Well that was a long read!
  • 5
    @laangi @muliyul YES!
  • 4
    It hit me just now... isn't whoever is behind the comittee organizing this event a capable female programmer that can do the job of speaking? This job post strikes as odd then... it may be not a community effort but rather someone making moneyzzz off the #girlpowercode trend
  • 2
    @honeyBadgerJeff be a boring event if it only had one speaker
  • 1
    213 comments. Never seen so many.
  • 4
    Half way reading this thread I went TL;DR and just skimmed until I found a comment by another woman, found a couple at the end of a 200+ discussion on equality in the work place.

    Make of it what you will. It's interesting
  • 2
    TLDS (to long; didn't scroll).
  • 2
    now we need to request for a to top and to bottom feature @Dfox for many comments
  • 5
    @biscuit how sexist of you, dismissing logical and reasoned arguments because of the gender of the people giving them.
  • 2
    @biscuit yep.

    @brettmoan A thread about gender equality, >99% posts men talking about it.

    Not saying there aren't logical or reasoned posts, I just don't think we are totally qualified to make judgements based on the experiences of women.

    That is on all sides of the debate.
  • 2
    @Hedgepig totally qualified? What requires such qualification?

    Imho, the only qualifications you need for an argument is logic, reason, and decency.
  • 2
    @Hedgepig Did you just assume our genders? :D
  • 1
    @bioDan the qualification is direct experiences of any sort of gender equality/inequality.

    Such a qualification would be perfect. If we could see everything, know everything and have the perfect ability to understand it all.
  • 1
    @penguin ha, I presumed by avatars, inductive reasoning would suggest that my margin of error is negligible.

    Though in light of my previous post, sir, I may have just shot myself in the foot
  • 2
    @Hedgepig sound like everyone is qualified to me :)
    More so because such a "perfect qualification" doesn't really exists.

    In my view, logic, reason and decency outweighs personal experience when presenting an argument.

    For example, from my personal experience most of the time feminists speak about men and men's issues. The majority of feminists are women.

    >None of them are qualified to talk about men.
    >I don't care for qualifications, I care about truth. Give me logic and reason plz.
  • 1
    @bioDan In part I agree with you.

    A single personal experience does not necessarily represent the wider "truth". But in this context I'd much rather read the personal experiences of women devs than read men pontificating on what seems like entirely non existent evidence.

    Yes evidence, logic and reason mean nothing when it's not backed by empirical facts. Hence, I am looking for evidence via the experiences, as well as data such as pay scales. It's not accurate, but entirely more substantial than our flawed and baseless "logic and reasoning"

    Alas, I'm falling into the same trap, so I may just duck out of this one.

    Plus I really should be working
  • 3
    @Hedgepig hahah nice one ducking it :)
    Good luck with the work!

    I also partly agree with what you say, where we differ is the weight we put on personal experience.

    I think personal experience is overrated because:

    > a person sharing his/her personal experience may be decent or indecent due to his/her personal convictions and interests.
    > belief in the truthfulness of his/her claims is based on how well you know him/her.

    That's why I think personal experience may be counted as evidence, but not nearly enough to make a solid conclusion.
  • 1
    Okay for the sake of clarification:

    @Letmecode you're just debating the English. My apologies if I wasn't clear. I don't want an definitions debate but I will define some terms (based on Google define)

    Empirical: based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.

    Empirical facts: facts based on the above foundations. Therefore they are objective by nature.

    Logic: reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.
  • 2
    @Hedgepig
    "you're just debating the English"
    What's wrong with that? You can't be mad if you aren't using the correct English words and people misunderstand you.

    There can't be an empirical fact. I think what you mean is empirical evidence.
  • 2
    @penguin what I meant was I didn't want to debate the definitions, as they aren't directly important to the debate. But it is indeed important to have common understanding of underlying meaning.

    I will own up and admit I got the terms wrong. I did in fact mean empirical evidence rather than empirical facts. Sorry for that.

    @Letmecode I'm glad I've entertained you :). And thanks, I'll be sure to check those terms ;).
  • 1
    One more thing before I make up for lost time:

    Isn't everything we ever observe an experience?

    Sorry for taking this way off topic.
  • 3
    @Hedgepig I think this post, and most of the replies, shows why female-centric conferences are necessary. I'm genuinely disappointed by the reactions of far to many devranters.
  • 2
    @Letmecode I'm not begging approval... I've made an observation that many of the comments come from a mysoginistic viewpoint which is exactly why these conferences are necessary.
    I'm not going to keep trying to convince you that it's an issue as you made your views very clear. It's a fruitless exercise, and frankly a waste of my time, trying to change your unwavering opinion.
    By stating that observation, I hope it will help any fence sitters to see the mysoginistic theme running through this thread and help bring them to a more equality based viewpoint.
  • 3
    @biscuit and there it is,

    Anyone who thinks that disagrees with your premise(that there is a gender pay gap in 1st world English speaking countries that is caused by gender discrimination) is a misogynist.

    Yet the question of "is there gender pay gap in 1st world English speaking countries?" IS NOT EMPIRICALLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY PROVEN.

    Did I single person argue that there SHOULD be a pay gap?

    No

    Did a single person argue that woman should be discriminated against?

    No

    Did a single person say anything that women were in anyway less qualified for STEM careers?

    No

    In fact the only person's intelligence that has been questioned in the entire conversation is you questioning others, and others questioning your full and utter inability to understand logic and debate.

    If you want to get people on your side you need to show 3 things:
    1 empirical evidence that equally qualified candidates are being paid less based of gender
  • 3
    2 it's because of gender
    3 show events directly targeting one minority by discrimination against the majority helps the minority without hurting the majority .
  • 1
    @brettmoan and there it's not.
    Nothing you have offered has empirically or unequivocally proved there is NOT a gender pay gap.
    I'm not making a sweeping statement that those that disagree with ME are mysoginists, this discussion isn't about me.
    Sexual discrimination is a fact, and picking holes in my argument isn't going to change that.
    You seem so intent on proving you're right, your blinkered to the bigger picture.
    I can accept I will not change YOUR views on the subject.
  • 3
    @biscuit and you haven't proven that your not an fascist. The burden of proof is ON YOU and those who argue that special treatment is needed in order to combat injustice. You have to prove there's an injustice actual occurring, and you have to prove that it's because of some misogynistic intent. When you call people who disagree with you misogynistic you better have the fucking facts to back it up asshole. especially since every single 1st world western country has specific laws legislating that said discrimination to be illegal.

    I think women and men are equal. Males and females do have some general genetic differences (besides the genitalia) but nothing to make one sex or gender more or less suited to STEM careers. And more generally with any problem solving, a diversity of people tends to higher results in creativity and innovation.

    Yep real misogyny there right?

    Either back your narrow minded political views up with facts or stop claiming disagreemet is misogyny.
  • 1
    @brettmoan Difficult to find many studies that account for hours worked / experience etc as most are done on an across the board comparison.
    That said, have a read of the study linked below.
    It goes past the simple he earns / she earns comparison by explaining how hiring practices contribute to the wage gap.
    It might enlighten you to the notion that it's not as clear cut as you seem to think it is.
    It does show percentage pay scales at the end and there's a clear difference, however ... I think it's the concepts of how and why this gap exists that would benefit you the most. (I don't mean that rudely, I think expanding your viewpoint may give you a different perspective).
    https://stlouisfed.org/publications...
  • 1
    @brettmoan in answer to 3. show events directly targeting one minority by discrimination against the majority helps the minority without hurting the majority...

    The hiring practices, gender bias and therefore opportunities offered to women are limited in the more male dominated industries.
    By having female centric conferences, women are given the freedom and opportunity to behave in a manner unaffected by the 'general sexism' that exists in these industries.
    I'm not saying that the men in these industries are deliberately sexist or making a conscious decision to be sexist ... it's an inbuilt 'attitude' that has been passed down by previous generations.
    Don't forget that women only got the vote in the US in the 20's, yes it's nearly a 100 years ago, but that's only 3 or 4 generations and attitudes take a lot longer than that to change.
    I believe you need to understand and appreciate the bigger picture mate.
  • 1
    @brettmoan Another article for you.
    Again, I'm not pointing at the pay gap statistics as such, I think it's the 'why' that you should be reading about ... skim the top, but read the section in the bottom 3rd.
    http://smh.com.au/comment/...
  • 4
    Arguing about political crap is pointless and dull. All I know is, I want my mother and wife and sisters to make millions of dollars then give me enough so I don't have to do shit. Get after it, sjw's.
  • 2
    @ninjatini you might find it dull, but it's definitely not pointless mate.
  • 3
    @biscuit the Australian article had a mix of valid and invalid points. Particularly it asks some questions as to why, and then says "don't discount sexism" "random story about sexist occurring to somebody at unnamed time, at an unnamed company by unnamed people."

    One of the comments puts the argument best,
    " Of course, all of this is irrelevant, as the decisions taken by individuals and families are their own. In the pay gap debate, all that matters is that there is no systemic culture of sexism preventing women from achieving that which men do, and no evidence has been put forward that there is."

    The only thing that we can even potentially prove is that in some cases where jobs have a large training cost and turn around, there is a "statistical discrimination" in that employers have a higher cost with woman employees and the assumed risk that the female employee will quit sooner is translated into lower pay. The correct response would be to offer more flexible work sched.
  • 3
    @biscuit When it comes to high stress high hour jobs a lot of women self select a way from those jobs in favor of a job/employer with better work life balance. I myself prefer not to do overtime even though I'm hourly, precisely the extra time at home. My wife chooses to work from home as a sales consultant earning little above minimum wage, but she loves the fact that she's her own boss. I asked her to consider finishing her degree to get a much better paying job but she prefers to stay at home because she knows she wants to be a stay at home mom once we do have kids.

    These are only anecdotes but they show a common(for her said anyway) individual choice. And it's one that leads to a stronger society in the long run. The reason I'm not seeking a higher paying job is I'm content and would rather have time with my family, something that allows me to relate with many women at my work. I work with other woman that devote themselves to work, that make many times my salary.
  • 3
    @biscuit the reason I find the "gender pay gap" to be a pointless discussion is that unless you can point to an actionable company or person preforming misogynistic acts, and giving preference to male employees, there's nothing we can effectively to do prove it, let alone strategically combat it.

    I'm for promoting laws that create equality. I think when it comes to fighting for humanity and for equal treatment of people we would be better spent on initiatives like "lifewater" for 3rd world countries that don't even have clean enough water to live past 40 to 50 years. Or on cracking down on places like Saudi Arabia that practice honor killings. Fighting countries like Russia and North Korea where millions live in poverty in two of the worst dictatorships of our day. Or China where they polute the world left and right and care nothing of patents and intellectual property. Or massive drug cartels of South America and Africa or massive human trafficking.

    All much bigger issues.
  • 1
    @brettmoan ummm pretty sure Russia is a democracy
  • 1
    @biscuit call me when this discussion affects any change and we'll talk. Until then I proudly stand by my sentiments. :)
  • 2
    Someone mentioned burden of proof. I have mainly done a quick skim but they deserve a good read.

    This is for UK.

    https://google.co.uk/url/...

    For USA

    The Gender Pay Gap - Stanford University

    https://google.co.uk/url/...
  • 2
    @ninjatini thanks for your most valuable input ;). Hope you go away feeling superior :D
  • 2
    @brettmoan so do you honestly believe there's no systemic culture of sexism?
    If you truly don't then none of my points can get through to you.
    If you believe sexism exists and affects how women are able to live their lives, then you must surely see that it affects their opportunities and choices with regards to work as much as every other part of their lives.
  • 1
    @biscuit sexism has been by and large eradicated in the civilized world. Women don't choose not to enter stem fields because of sexism buddy.
  • 1
    @penguin seriously? How did you come to that conclusion?
  • 3
    @biscuit to fight sexism where it really exists and where it will producw an impact - not in western countries.
  • 1
    @bioDan again... Seriously? How can you think there's no sexism in the west? I understand that there are regions where women are oppressed in a much more obvious and severe way, but are you really claiming it's not an issue in the west?
  • 2
    @biscuit How are women discriminated on the west (to an unreasonable degree. Aka. More than men)?
  • 2
    @Letmecode yeah, well the clause is there because I'm expecting some really silly and menial examples :)
  • 1
    @penguin ask google that question, I'm sure you'll find something that will enlighten you. Or maybe ask a women, chances are they'll be able to give you some examples
  • 1
    @biscuit Great response. A+ ! You definitely have tons of very valid and important examples which is why you divert instead of just giving an example which would likely take up less characters. Really great dude!
  • 1
    @penguin FYI, if you do ask a woman, I'd recommend against telling them their examples are menial or trivial...
  • 1
    @penguin I'm not gonna tie your shoelaces for you either... Does that make me a bad person?
  • 2
    @biscuit yes. I am claiming it's not THE issue in the west. There are much more pressing issues, this is kinda like a very minor bug fix for a fringe use case.
  • 2
    "FYI, if you do ask a woman, I'd recommend against telling them their examples are menial or trivial." Most women don't think they're discriminated against. but you seem to think is some overwhelming and undisputed fact that it is indeed the case. Seems like you are in a little bubble bro.
    "I'm not going to tie your shoelaces" So you are bothering to discuss but you think your too good to give an example. Grow up. If it's too intimidated for you to name an example that we can critically look at and enter into real discussion, than perhaps you would be better off keeping your discrimination discussions on tumblr.
  • 1
    @bioDan as a male you might see sexism as a minor issue, I'm sure women don't. There are many other problems, they're just not what we're discussing.
  • 1
    @penguin where your evidence that most women don't think sexism exists? That's just a silly, thoughtless comment.
    As for examples, start here http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/...
    It's pointless posting it as if you did have any interest in finding out about sexism you could very easily have looked yourself.
  • 2
    @biscuit So the huffingtonpost is know for being trash and the article is written by a very impartial, self described feminist. Nevertheless I went through the points and summarized by responses .

    "Religious sexism" - I agree, religions can be discriminatory for sure. Islam is very discriminatory towards women.
    "Double standards" - Stupid menial example. there are double standards both ways.
    "Chivalry" - Sorry for being polite. Though if a boat sinks I'm sure those women who feel triggerd also don't want to hear "women and children first" either... right? :D
    "The high costs of staying safe.” - Safety and sexism aren't the same thing. Women tend to be weaker and therefore targeted more. That isn't discrimination per se.
    "Sexism in media" - Bullshit
    "Women pay more for our products just because we are women and considered not standard.” - Capitalism 101
  • 1
    @biscuit "Our language is profoundly biased" - Comes from history and is not discriminatory... also mostly bullshit
    "Street harassment" - Depends what country you're in I guess. Where I am that's unheard of.
    "We let our schools teach sexist lessons" - Bullshit
  • 2
    @biscuit as a male you are sure to be overly opinionated and biased towards what female issues actually are.

    Gender shouldn't matter, even if you were a female, you would not speak for all females so your argumenting points would still be invalid.
  • 1
    @bioDan I'm not biased towards female issues. It's called empathy. It's quite easy to understand what someone else might be going through even if you've not experienced the situation yourself.
    Ever lost a leg? Even if you hadn't you could certainly understand how and why it would make someones life more difficult.

    As a male (or female) of course one person doesn't speak for all, but with just a little bit of reasoning you can see that it is a widespread issue and not just one 'feminist' complaining.
  • 2
    @penguin It didn't have to be the huffington post mate ffs!
    Religious - not just Islam, most are based on a patriarchal way of thinking.
    Double standards - how is it menial?
    A man can fuck who he wants and be praised for it, a woman does the same and is shamed. Being shamed and abused isn't menial.
    Safety and sexism are related - have you ever worried about being raped while walking home alone in the dark? It's never even crossed my mind, but it's something many women will tell you is a real concern.
    Language - it comes from a history that was a lot more sexist and based on a patriarchal society ... that still exists today.
    Street harrassment - yeah, I now live in a place where if this happens, i haven't heard about it. In other places I've lived around the world you see / hear it multiple times a day walking down the street.
    You can't discount it just because you live in a 'nice' place.
    Won't comment on schools as it's been decades since I was at one.
  • 1
    @biscuit "It didn't have to be the huffington post mate ffs!" - Never said it did.
    "Religious - not just Islam" - Sure, but Islam especially, particularly in the way it practiced today.
    "Double standards - how is it menial?" - Because the double standards that exist today in the west aren't that terrible and there are I would say about equal double standards for both men and women.
    "A man can fuck who he wants and be praised for it, a woman does the same and is shamed." - 1. It's not abuse. 2. Generally it's because the guy has to work for it. Ideally, of course, people wouldn't care about such stuff.
    "Safety and sexism are related - have you ever worried about being raped while walking home alone in the dark?" - No, sexism is discrimination here. Discrimination is a prejudice against a group. This has nothing to do with a prejudice. Of course it's still a problem.
  • 1
    @biscuit "Language - it comes from a history that was a lot more sexist and based on a patriarchal society ... that still exists today." - Yes, but really this is a really small point. Women aren't disadvantaged by this in the least.
    "Street harrassment" Maybe it is an issue where you live. What kind of harrasment are we talking about? Catcalling? That would be quite disrespectful and sexist. We don't have that kind of stuff here in Switzerland, so maybe that is a valid discrimination where you live.
  • 3
    @biscuit it may come as a shock to you but you are very biased toward female issues. You can clearly see it by re-reading all you replied on this post.

    and with just a bit of reasoning, you can see that these issues are not as widespread as you want/present it to be.
  • 1
    @bioDan it's not a shock. The discussion is about issues females deal with, so my points have been about that. I thought it was more relevant than talking about issues men face in a workplace...
  • 2
    @biscuit what you have is called 'empathy and genusmasochism' because you only have empathy for one side of the argument.
  • 2
    @biscuit <sarcasm>
    yes the discussion is about female issues which have no consequences whatsoever on males.
    </sarcasm>
    Nice try, you are welcome to try again
  • 1
    @bioDan at no point has anyone brought up the male side of things.
    You keep changing the focus of your arguments every time I reply.
  • 5
    @biscuit again here is the point,

    Sexism exists, but it is not systematic, becuase our systems actually criminalize sexual/gender discrimination in the work force. Im not arguing that women have never felt or been affected by a sexist comment/action but what really is the action to take that actually helps? It certainly isn't more legislation (we have plenty). It certainly isn't groups like that group shown on the college humor video. It would have to be groups that aren't segregating.

    Again some premises that I reject are: "women need groups that can tell them they can accomplish X cause women rarely have done X historically"
    "white men don't need told they can do X, there's already another white man whose done that"
    "individuals identify their value/potential based off of achievements of others they can identify with"

    these are flawed because is it teaches us to identify our potential with a given sex/gender/race/age/etc.
    Each individual is unique and has unique potential
  • 4
    @biscuit here you go lying again..
    It's easy to see how many times you mentioned 'men', 'man', and 'male' (particularly 'white male', don't know what you have against them) in your arguments.

    Keep deceiving yourself that you're balanced.
  • 5
    @biscuit there are sub cultures in the West with systemic sexism, such as: any oppressive religion, high school & college "bros", what I'll call "gangster" culture (for lack of a better word but a culture propagated through rap, pop and some R&B music/music-videos. predominantly black, but not by any means exclusively black)

    Workplaces, specifically tech, would certainly not be a culture with systemic racism, women have been part of computer science (and related fields) for generations (example world famous Grace Hopper) and their). Was there systematic sexism in the past? Sure, that's why we legislated against it. And if any company continues it they get their asses sued.

    Its counterproductive to propagate sexist behavior in the workplace as it likely leads to a lawsuit that loses thousands if not millions of dollars.

    Capitalism combined with good regulation (like anti discrimination laws) takes care of the sexism in the work place. Anything additional is superfluous.
  • 2
    @penguin re: Russia as a democracy,

    Only if you overload the definition of a democracy to include the assassination of dissidents.
  • 1
    @bioDan you should read @brettmoan 's recent replies... That's how you argue your point, accepting of some of my arguments but pointing out what and why he disagrees with others.
  • 3
    @brettmoan while I still disagree with you on the benefits of / need for the female only conferences... Your other points are well made.
    It's good to finally reach a 'middle ground' where, while not totally agreeing, we're accepting and understanding of the others point of view.
  • 2
    @biscuit honestly a majority of people have similar goals but differing opinions on what is effective. Sadly speaking just effectiveness of policy and action can not be made unless you already have some mutual respect or can fund a way to find some.

    When it comes to public policy I'm a pragmatist I think government should be involved in the parts of life that it is more effective that private parties (be that industries/businesses/churches/etc.) Where governments are less effective than private parties I believe it should be left to the private parties.

    Some "middle ground" that almost all western civilization agrees government is most effective at is things like: utilities, law enforcement, fire fighters, military / national defense, legislation preventing certain practices, etc.

    There are other things they are questionable about but ultimately most people want laws that protect us enough to allow "life, liberty, and the pursuit of property [and happiness] "
  • 5
    @biscuit You don't know how to argue so it's kind of hard/frustrating to argue with you.
    But I'm happy he got through to you. I'm glad you finally woke :)
  • 1
    Don't you people have anything better to do
  • 4
  • 3
    @shrike πŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸ€—πŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏπŸΏ
  • 7
    Let's organize an event called 'Code like an human'
  • 5
    @Thehandiest unconscious bias, microagressions and intolerance are flourishing? By what scale are you measuring these factors?

    Of course intolerance still exists and intolerance in itself is not always a bad thing but most of the time it is.'

    Let's take a small time scale from 100 years ago until today, I can't see how you can say that intolerance is flourishing. But for the sake of the argument let's assume it is.

    Unconscious bias and micro aggressions are futile to me as long as they don't manifest into behaviour.
    However what truly bothers me ( and seems to me its in decline) is the lack of thick skin, the decency, and the ability to recieve honest criticisms (critical thinking). I think these issues let intolerance thrive.
  • 6
    Lol devlopers trying to have a social debate...

    ***Warning: undefined behavior***
  • 4
    @RYPTAR lol developer trying to critic other developers for having a logical debate and demean their message by calling it a "social debate" and letting the implied premise of "developers are antisocial" belittle the people in the conversation and imply that those here are "unqualified" to discuss these things merely because of their occupation as developers.
  • 3
    @brettmoan wow man, I hope to see your code one day (in hope its at least as good as of how you've articulated your arguments in this discussion) πŸ˜ŠπŸ‘
  • 3
    @bioDan If you ever get the chance I hope it lives up.

    Don't judge me by me github though please. Everything in there was written in college when I was young and stupid.

    An Aside: present me all ways calls past me young and stupid because it's always true.... and past me can never defend himself.
  • 3
    @brettmoan -______- By "social debate" i implied you were having a debate about the social aspects of life i.e. society, recent events, the works. My opinion, being a developer, is i find idle chitchat about worldly problems a waste of time seeing how all the non developers also engage in this past time instead of actually working towards solving the problem. Stop wasting your talent on being pretentious and go develop solutions to all these opinions you're so passion and knowledgeable about. Anyways God bless you and hopefully some good works come out of your debate πŸ–’πŸ½πŸ–’πŸ½πŸ–’πŸ½
  • 9
    <rant>That shit always enrages me. Can we just stop making such a big deal about women in tech? We're here, we do our job, we like it.

    Events or clubs like that only highlight the fact that you are woman, is that really the first thing you want to indentify as in your development job?</rant>
  • 4
    @aymswick

    Gr8 b8 m8.
  • 5
    @aymswick you sir, mention me just to tell me I'm either a jackass or a troll. Then complained you thought this was a nice place.

    It surely is less nice now (that you're here)
  • 4
    @aymswick you sir are a troll or an idiot. Thought this was an intelligent place :(
  • 1
    Oh my god, thank you!
  • 2
    @laangi if you delete this post, will it put an end to this discussion?
  • 3
    @Siddharthkr93
    It has ended.
  • 3
    @Siddharthkr93 before you posted it had been 3 days without activity. Why you necroing bro?
  • 3
    @Linux I hadn't read till the end. My bad. 😝
  • 3
    @Siddharthkr93
    Do you realize what you have awoken?
  • 3
    @Linux @brettmoan I guess I'm one of those dumb guys who presses the red button that says "Don't press it!"😜
  • 3
    @Siddharthkr93

    Yeah why did you press it?
  • 2
    @Siddharthkr93

    No man nooooooooo

    Whyyyyyyyyyy. Now we're all sucked into this conversation again. What if we had production issues we had to deal with!?

    The end is near.
    The end is near.
  • 3
    And... Season 2 begins.. :D
  • 3
    Wow, that was intense
  • 3
    @biscuit Dude, you can't look at median salaries in isolation, spot a difference, and claim there is gender inequality. That's like saying Global Warming isn't possible because it's less than 10 degrees outside when it happens to be winter, when months ago it was 90. You have to control for decisions made by individuals.

    Men, on average, tend to spend more time at work. They generally spend more time earning money for their families and less time with them in person. Women tend to do the opposite. Because higher paying positions in any field require more demanding hours, less flexibility, et cetera, you are really comparing the choices made by men/women, not how they are treated. When you control for those choices, the difference almost entirely disappears.

    Also, let's use a bit of common sense here. As an employer, if I could pay women 15% less, all other things being equal, I would hire only women. Who wouldn't? In turn, no one would hire men, and they would earn what women do.
  • 2
    @Ashkin and your comment is a relief as well. With that, I am going to stop reading this enormous comment war.
  • 4
    @mochi Wow! I am glad that this Rant exists! Thank you OP for getting out the words!
Add Comment