It seems female developers are getting scarce by the day... Maybe it's just my region. 🤷🏽‍♂️

Maybe most women just don't like tech careers. What is current data about preferences saying? Not everyone is supposed to have the same likes and dislikes.
No one seems to complain about the lack of male fashion models

This Amycruz... is she an actual dev? If not, why?

@Fast-Nop Lol.😂 That's a good question. Legit one!

Get more attractive/less creepy dudes in the field.

Maybe all the female devs are employed, or otherwise not interested in the position 🤔

@spongessuck

Well I'm in trouble then....

@spongessuck Always nice to see how misandric sexism is perfectly acceptable. Maybe also add anti-white / anti-Asian racism on top of it so that you seem even more "progressive".

@spongessuck or rather, protect the existing ones from the creeps?

Somebody explain to me, what is this thing women will bring to tech that I have to go out of my way to encourage them to join, if they are interested fine I will help any way I can if they ain't fuck them that's not my problem

This question reads like how do we get more smart undersexed males fired and flipping hamburgers ?

This bitch sounds like the idiots in that long forgotten gamer gate crap

No offense guys but our field isn’t brimming with male supermodels so the assumption is a general lack of pussy lol

@MadMadMadMrMim That, plus my field of work combined with the power of anime figurines will protect my virginity.

I recommend listening to:

https://irlpodcast.org/season4/...

In 1995, 35% of devs were female.

"Unfortunately, we backslid. Most of the numbers show that we’re somewhere between 24 and 26% (2019).

We left because we weren’t treated fairly, we left because the opportunities weren’t there. We left because when we got right to the mid-career, there was no place to go."

@spongessuck I personally haven't encountered any creepy dudes yet. I've dealt with way worse (like outright sexual harassment, grabbing and people following me into bathrooms etc) in the other industries I have worked. If anything all the guys I've worked with have been super encouraging 🤷‍♀️ the CTO at my company is a woman (she is brilliant) and I have also met alot of good looking devs, who make good money so if anything I think it's a lack of interest or not enough exposure for women to realize how interesting / fun programming can be.

How do we get more women: you don't. Just keep calm and hire the best applicants among ones you've got and stop fucking caring about their genitals.

@Nanos 6 months and every hour of every day seems extreme for a website I would dip too LOL

@Nanos true. In my company I haven't seen even one male accountant.

@ars1 oooh ooh add a vape for double protection

@yesNo as if females don't use vapes

I'm Remembering my time studying (CS). Back then we had 2 girls out of around 100 students. Few years later our University introduced a more creative CS study (focussing on any kind of media) where around 50 % were girls / boys. I had the chance to get in touch with some classes and I couldn't see any difference from a performance point of view.
Looking at the market, I agree, most applications still come from guys (in our not so creative field), but the few applications we got from women were really promising and we hired most of them.
Additionally to the field of interest I think it still relates to social environments and given opportunities.
EDIT: I don't know how many girls are studying the CS thing I did today. So maybe it doesn't relate too much to the content itself

Why is this shit even an issue to some people? Why can’t it simply be about hiring people who want to work in tech instead of hiring just because of race or color nonsense?

Good. Let's keep this up. Once none of your daughters joined the force, we shall see where they actually end up. Lol. Plus, I can keep tell men how better than them I am to be their equal despite having a vajayjay.

This is ridiculous, but hey, it works in my favor. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The less the women the more precious peeps like me get.

Get the kids programming. Seriously.
Make some kind, any kind, of programming part of the curriculum in school so that kids of all genders and backgrounds are exposed to it. The ones who enjoy it are going to continue with it.

@thehappyhipster I'd actually argue that doesn't work. Current methods of teaching IT is not cooperative, and as we know culturally women are more inclined to participate where they can talk and learn from their peers. It's not an issue of IT per se, (indian tech presence of women, exhibit A) it's more the way work and studying IT is based on masculine culture. The solitary work environment, the lack of discussion, the severe lack of work-life balance, all are contributing.

It would be much easier for moms returning to industry to get involved in tech than school-kids, but no one banks on them either.

@NoMad I don't know, my kids came home from school yesterday wanting swift playgrounds (apples learn to code app) on their iPads because they had done it at school that day.

https://developer.apple.com/swift-p...

@C0D4 we had a similar thing in school, but how many do you think ended up in IT? This is not a good measure tbh. Most girls I've seen have changed line of work.

@NoMad I think it's a mistake if we assume anything about preferred methods of working based on things like gender, even if statistics and/or historical data seems to back it up.

I believe what personality type you are is what will determine what line of work you will succeed and be content with, and what personality type you are has very little to do with what gender you are. Ie conforming or not to a perceived gender role isn't the same as having a certain personality type, IMHO.

seriously like in my college a company arrived only to pick 100 women, no matter even if they didn't had enough skills
talk about tough luck

@NoMad getting the kids interested and keeping them interested enough to get passionate about it are different things, I agree.

I think as long as there's interest, there's something to work with later.
Socially, Dev jobs suck and are boring and unless you're into design work / front end, there's not a whole lot of visible creativity to share with others.

@thehappyhipster I understand where you're coming from, but the same can be applied to male nurses. Is it because men are not compassionate? They become firefighters so why not nurse? I think it's less personality, it's more about how open the work culture is to diversity and difference in general. Ofc, you always get the prodigies in every field, but if people are allowed to be mediocre in a field, then you have proper inclusion.

@C0D4 the last part you mentioned, same can be told about accounting jobs. And you have eye witness above of the rate.

The creepy ones are usually in marketing. Women are also often in marketing. These two are destined to talk to each other a lot.

There is a concept in our field named compatibility. You can't run a PHP7 application on a PHP4 server, it just won't work.

Look at how women are in 2021 and how our jobs are in 2021. Demonstrably incompatible.

@NoMad "if people are allowed to be mediocre in a field, then you have proper inclusion." was a great conclusion I must say! :)

@ostream to be absolutely honest here I'd personally prefer the blind approach to the " ""women"" just don't want to do it." But that's just me.

@thehappyhipster there was actually a quote from someone about that... I'll find it in a minute... Hold on...

@thehappyhipster

“I’ve said this many times — there’s plenty of room in the world for mediocre men, but there is no room for mediocre women. You have to work. You have to work exceptionally hard, and you have to know what you’re talking about,” - Madeline Albright

Relevant:

https://forbes.com/sites/...

It could be because the said company has a sexist culture or has many male devs that make female devs unwelcome/uncomfortable (judging by the tweets I've seen on that topic from well-known ladies).

Or because there simply no interest from ladies for that role.

We can do the reverse-china trick and make it insanely unprofitable for a family to have a boy!

Suddenly the female numbers in Tech will increase!

@Hazarth The reason why a boy in China is profitable is because he will bear the duty of supporting his parents when they get old while girls have no such obligation. Guess which group resists the most to changing that inequality? Adult women of course.

I also love how you people totally contradict each other. No no no, there are no differences between men and women. Can't possibly be.

Except that the learning strategy is targeted at men while women prefer cooperating and talking. Wait, how can that be when there are no differences? So suddenly there are differences in that women statistically prefer chatting over reading manpages? Well, there you go.

Btw., the argument with the work life balance and lack of career perspective is ridiculous. Nurses are off much worse in both regards and on top of that also paid worse - which doesn't keep women from going into that profession.

@Hazarth or back up feminism so the perceived pressure on men to be breadwinners reduces and women could replace men in workforce? And make it more acceptable that women are the head of the family and men can spend time with kids or do something they actually enjoy instead of working just to feed the fam?

@thehappyhipster gender does affect psyche. That's a statement backed by empirical data. There's no way around it.

@Fast-Nop the two are unrelated. What culture enforces on kids as gender roles and expectations have nothing to do with their capabilities. At this point you're ignoring social norms. Good on you for being such a rule breaker, but also, signs of autism?

@ostream it's not blindness. Tech is generally made in such way that is pretty much incompatible with female preferences. Almost any type of job is pretty heavily inclined in gender representation because - surprise - genders are physically and psychically different.

@NoMad That fails because women at large will rather stay single than partnering downwards. Male doctor plus female nurse works out - the other way around doesn't because the woman likely will refuse that until she is too old for a family.

It's also why women stay with the kids - because they don't choose men where it would make economic sense that he does that because he earns less than her anyway.

Of course, that's freedom of choice - but choices have consequences.

@Fast-Nop lol. And centuries of women not having any financial freedom and independence has nothing to do with it?

@iiii Of course it does, statistically, because testosteron production is different. Just ask F to M trans who have also taken testo and hence can compare the difference.

What should be there, and what we reached in the West already 30 years ago, is freedom of choice for those women who are interested and capable of being in tech.

But there will never be gender equality unless we restrict freedom of choice, as shown in the gender gap even growing instead of shrinking where women have more freedom of choice, such as openly feminist countries like in Scandinavia.

@NoMad No, it hasn't because we don't live in such times, and we havn't for generations. If you argue that women live in the past, maybe they should arrive in the present.

If women want change, they should start at themselves instead of moving the responsibility for their lives towards whatever man is around to blame for their decisions.

@Fast-Nop there will be no gender equality unless there will remain only one gender. I can't see it possible otherwise.

@Fast-Nop I really wish for your daughters to end up having kids with a man who has the same ideas. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@Fast-Nop and yeah, I know about that imbalance because of freedom. you're preaching to the choir 😁 were on one side

@NoMad I refuse to have kids because I refuse the role Western society assigns to fathers - being exploited as pay slave only and otherwise discarded. That's my way of dealing with gender related injustice - the real one, as in systematically anti-male sexist family courts.

@ostream I know it is not a bullshit. The science behind"social constructs" is almost nonexistent. It's not backed by anything than empty words and delusions of those who want to get a bigger slice of pie for nothing

And btw., the one dev domain with most unpaid overtime and worst pay, that's the game dev industry. If women don't enter there, that's just reasonable.

I can see though why the game dev companies would very much like to increase the pool of people they can exploit.

@Fast-Nop I've had colleague who worked in a small game dev company before, and she got out of there after a week of bullshit

Ps: a female colleague. And she was a good specialist, most probably better than me

@NoMad To be fair, you just wished @Fast-Nop for his daughter to have kids with a man that thinks women are independent and capable of bringing change for themselves.

I don't see how that is even an insult.

Isn't it better to have a partner that supports you in achieving your goals rather than someone who just does it for you when you ask?

Men... so much stupidity...

Let's be clear only stupid companies hire people because of diversity.
Except in VERY specific fields, your tech skills are not enough! In the industry part, we are way past the "genius creep coding in his basement".
Tech skills are a MINIMUM! You have to bring something else to the bargain to have a really good position.

And yeah TRUE diversity is a plus. What's true diversity? Having different " life paths", contexts... People coming from the same neighborhood, going to the same high schools, colleges inside the same socioeconomic layers... All think pretty close!

And yes, it's a problem. If you don't get it, you dumb...

Now, the main problem is education and "common culture". And YES we have to change this.

NB: 6 months for a website? Are you compiling your kernel and build your keyboard die style? A normal website us 2w to 1 month MAX! If not, it's either not a website or you fucking it up..

@Hazarth what I understood is that he still thinks most women are stupid and modern societies (which, btw, have stopped being patriarchy) are anti-men. And feminism is bullshit and men and women cannot be equal because women don't want it so. So... Yeah idk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@ostream

You just reduced the discussion about biological differences between men and women to "your dick doesn't give you special brain power"

You do realize there's a whole lot of chemistry going on the inside of the human bodies. It's not just the reproductive organs but millenia of evolution. There's about a million of examples in nature where different sexes of the same species behave differently. What gives you the impression that for humans it just boils down to how your genitals look?

@NoMad If women want equality, they have to get their asses there instead of making life decisions and then blaming random men for the consequences.

I'd say that this has actually happened already, and the gender disparity in tech is one of the results of this decision process.

@NoMad I don't think he said stupid. I only read "picky".

And yeah, I think I know what the problem with societies looking anti-men is... It's actually quite prevalent if you follow modern political channels, but I still believe that's just a vocal minority and it does boil down to what sort of news people subscribe to ^^;

I like to think most humans make sense and don't actually hate men nor women with such blazing anger as the news would like us to believe

@jotamontecino diversity if ideas is definitely a valuable asset

@Hazarth
https://sciencedirect.com/science/...

Tldr: brains work the same in the end.

@NoMad where is that written exactly? It states the opposite.

@Hazarth I actually don't want to argue men vs women. Whether there is a difference or not, women make half the society. In europe, even more than half. I just know we're not going back in time, and discriminating against either is as stupid as one can be. So I won't be the strongest defender of "women" as much as I am a defender of my future kids not struggling just because of their perceived gender.

@NoMad

Brains do! But having two identical machines in two different environments doesn't give you the same results! The most glaring example is always estrogen vs testosterone... Those hormones alone are shown to make huuuuge differences in people not just physiologically but also behavior wise.

For me, that ends the discussion. We have the same capabilities, but different hidden variable setups. Ignoring that will only lead to more friction in the industry and social space.

I feel like we've overcomplicated things when we all started feeling butthurt about ourselves. That's why nop is probably so on edge regarding this topic, and It's why the OPs post even happened... Everyone is just being an asshole >:c

@ostream that's what i did. and it clearly says there are definite differences. the only quazi-equality it states is equality of IQ despite different structure. and IQ is not even nearly everything about human brains. IQ does not measure *how* the individual thinks, but only measures the outcome, and our topic at hand is *exactly* about the "how" and not just abstract analytical outcome.

@NoMad I'm with you on your last point...

Honestly all I do, say and believe in is to ensure a future for my future children :( they will be the best no matter who they are... Unless they are a Youtuber! Then I will disown them >:D

@iiii IQ is a meme *dabs*

@Hazarth also that. a meme born by american eugenists

@Hazarth so OnlyFans is fine but YouTube is not? 🤔😏

@ostream well, if you are going to criticize the only measure of equality they state... then there is no equality stated in that paper

Didn't read above. Just here to say: it's not important.

@ostream oh, and my dick definitely gives me a special ability: ability to spread my seeds in females. i doubt any female can do that. 🤔

@NoMad The one thing you personally can do for that is choosing a man who doesn't have more income than you, ideally less.

@iiii you found a bug in my morality module!

Please file a ticket with support and we'll add "OnlyFans" on the blacklist in the next version!

(PS: I keep forgetting OF exists.. or twitter... Or instagram... Or tiktok... Or roblox.. or realy all of that shit I avoid like the wildfire, so it skips my mind!)

@Lyniven *this person sums up this thread perfectly*

@Hazarth lol. I don't really see any strong reason to impose anything on the children. they are their own individuals with their own personal responsibilities for their lives and wellbeing

Women are full of shit, they want all the advantages to being a man and none of the downsides

@jotamontecino The race and gender discussion only came up because the left abandoned the best point it had - fighting classism. That's because the armchair lefties are usually from well-to-do households.

Only that the one factor that determines one's income isn't gender or race, it's the income of one's parents. You can be white as snow and male as Chuck Norris, but if your parents are from the "white trash" class, you won't make it.

@EpicofGilgamesh

O_O !

Do you hate living?

@ostream yes. my genitals in the workplace mean nothing. and they mean nothing for a female developer as well (i've stated previously, that i've worked with at least one female who was probably more capable than me professionally). but... the genitals are the external sign of innate structural, physiological, chemical and psychological differences which DO affect the decision making process and very heavily affect the odds of individuals of one gender ending in a specific type of workplace. and I'm not talking only about IT, I'm talking about every profession out there. there is not one that is totally equal in gender representation because every profession tickles different parts of our psyche which results in different individuals having more preference in one type of activities over other ones.

Fast-nop also mentioned a huge empirical evidence: more freedom results in more gender imbalance in workplaces.

@Hazarth i like being alive

@ostream oh, the beloved topic of radical lefties: the cursed pay gap.

i wonder, why do you dismiss IQ as nonsensical, but not pay gap because of the same reason? 🤔

===========================

And this girls and boys and all you other folk reading , is why we can't have nice things

===========================

@ostream I don't hate women you dipshit

@ostream I wasn't speaking about a pay gap, which is a lie in itself, I was speaking about gender disparity per profession.

@eo2875 boy if you people knew why I was fucked on work right now it would revolutionize the word “discrimination”

@Nanos they’re called gold diggers

@yesNo that’s because they’re used to hookers working under the guise of professionals

If it’s any consolation that’s become a trend with male white collar people too because the money just isn’t there

There’s a whole sad layer of people that has formed an ever growing mound of trash in our society that were warped from a young age to be child predators and are worked as prostitutes

They’re thoroughly evil people and they’re a disease but companies host them to reduce the amount of money they have to pay competent people

Hehe reminded of stackoverlfow now where you tell the truth and people downvote you lol

Did I mention the imposters who are headed to total losers dom go out of their way to spread discord among men and end up screwing them over the first chance they get to try to sponsor their own male equivalents into the workplace ? Lol because they somehow want to replace everyone like some weird invasion of the body snatchers shit and think they won’t have to work for anything else but the offspring of evil men and women ?

@ostream well... social statistics is not exactly scientific in the first place. regarding it as a very strong evidence of anything is a mistake

@MadMadMadMrMim the fuck are you smoking, dude?

@ostream Of course it's personal preferences - not just choice of profession, but women, on average, also tend to opt for a better work-life-balance than men. Which is reasonable, but not as good for career. Guess what, men who make a similar choice aren't the ones making top careers, either.

On top of that, women work more part-time because they don't partner down, that's why the man is the main bread winner. That's another choice that limits career because others at the same age will have more experience.

I think the biggest problem in choosing one's career is that you don't have a good idea on what that career really feels like when you're making the choice.

When I made my choice, I had ruled out some disgusting industries (like marketing), and I knew I wanted to study for a university degree. But after that is where it gets a bit blurry. I think I ended up choosing my programme mostly based on what I was most familiar with from my hobbies. I ruled out choices I didn't know about, in part because the risk of me ending up not liking them was greater. And in part because I didn't know to think about them.

In the end, I feel like the biggest problem in choosing one's career is that it's rarely an informed choice. At least where I live.

@Fast-Nop I personally have zero problem choosing a guy who does what he likes, (excluding morally questionable work) even if he doesn't get paid. I would expect regardless of how much work or how much money, that he attends to the kids and does some housework tho.

@ostream errrm so you worked at apple ? The home of the people I just mentioned or one of them ?

@iiii another case in point lol

@C0D4 where are the nice things you talked of? I may end up scooping my eyes out just to forget this convo.

@NoMad you sweet sweet likely still awful person I wish you well if and only if you’re not and deign to send you multiple adult peoples of your preferred gender to dote on you hahahaha

@NoMad hehe an inactive pile of neurons from the depths of hell
Welcome to the modern world
Nice TIGER!!!!!

@ostream I'm a fan. Your argument is progressive and I hope you can bail me out once woman-hating eventually gets to me and brings me to man-hating. Good luck with that tho.

@NoMad I had a whole bag a few hours ago, seemed to have dropped them somewhere in this chaos 🙄

@MadMadMadMrMim yes, I am awful, and no, I don't want anybody you send. Now, run along before I bite.

@NoMad no ones really woman hating in this thread lol
So far as I see
And that post is also very old news
No ones telling chicks they can’t become fat miserable coffee swilling people with numb asses and back problems for a living
Though for a long while I worked out personally

@NoMad bad bad tiger *snap* you are special because you are you *snap* everything you do is unique and wondrous *snap* ALL WHO OPPOSE ME SHALL BE DESTROYED.. oh wait that last one was a total lie lmao

@ostream That's because men and women are different, inherently. The gender profession disparity in Sweden is larger than in the Iran where you have more female devs, and that's because in Sweden, economic pressure doesn't hamper freedom of choice as much as in the Iran. Note that this is despite Sweden being pro-feminist and the Iran not.

Equality of opportunity is what we can reach in the West, and we did so 30 years ago. Equality of outcome is only possible when sacrificing freedom of choice, e.g. through poverty.

@Fast-Nop personally I’d rather work on my own projects and or only dev as a hobby

Just not sure what else to do to make money

@MadMadMadMrMim Paid work always sucks somewhat because if it didn't, people would do it for free.

@Fast-Nop but then I’d also like to start my own paramilitary organization to root out the corruption in our country and crush the chomo sponsored economic cartels that are slowly spreading to every part of our economy

Yeah that does sound crazy and that’s the idea the truth is so ridiculous no one believes what is slowly happening at first

Anyway yeah and that
And then I’d make their whores my breeders to replace them with we’ll adjusted offspring who can grow to be the next wave of free citizens and then use them until they’re too old and put them to work recycling carbon rods in special towns I build for them while their children grow up in the only state where they won’t be like them which is without them :)

@MadMadMadMrMim what do you smoke and where do you get them? Link me to your dealer, please. They seem to have good stuff.

@NoMad I got something she can smoke :) good stuff too :) guaranteed to make her light headed and giddy as a school girl no matter how old she is haha

@ostream You didn't debunk that. Instead, you tried to sidetrack the discussion from the profession gender gap to the pay gap myth, and now you're trying to get personal. You lose.

@Fast-Nop personally I don’t know why we don’t say in this country
“We Gota bunch of houses we throw out half our food here both are free but you have to maintain the house and if your don’t you go live in a ghetto exception being if you’re old or crippled or have some other valid reason “

@ostream you uh do realize I majored in psych right ? Lol

@ostream all I gotta say is thank god it’s impossible to diagnose someone in most cases due to false positives over the internet as the sole source of data or I’d be contacting the apa on you demanding your degree get nixed lol

@ostream I love to hate you btw even though I really don’t lol yet lol

@ostream I won't "shut up" on your order, and of course I'm right that the profession gap in Sweden is larger than in the Iran with regard to devs. Sure you want me to shut up because you can't bear facts.

The very same discussion was here a year or so ago, and I just won't google up shit again.

I kinda want to get in on some of these arguments, kinda can't be arsed tho...

Thank you for reading this short interruption. You may continue scrolling.

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*epic music plays*

@ostream You guess a lot. That is, when you don't repeat outright debunked nonsense like gender pay gap that can entirely explained through other variables. Statistics, eh?

@ostream I already argued gender gaps and oppression with my dad tonight. I don't have energy. The thing is tho, he seems convinced. I won irl.

@ostream lol well I don’t smoke crack or anything else
Sigh but I must admit I’d like some low grade Chiba right about now lol

@ostream If women prefer nurse jobs to dev jobs, and nurses are paid worse than devs, that is no gender pay gap because male nurses would also be paid less than female devs.

In addition, what passes as "social science" at unis these days is rather spoon-feeding crooked ideology than anything else.

@ostream there is a corrupted vent in studies right now anyway that is intentional
And of course especially with psych we don’t fund much needed replication we just pretend that extending studies off possible crap is good enough

@Fast-Nop the question is did the people who wrote the pay gap study everyone is referencing present their data in categories with enough refined subject variables for it to be relevant or did someone trying to make their point just push a meaningless average out there
I must admit like many in my generation I’d rather read about how affect is influenced by color sound and recent events and how neurons fire together to paint executive function than why I’m evil for having a penis lol

@ostream god if only we could return to those days when the job market was saturated with vacant positions a person could raise a family and buy a house on !

@ostream Women by and large refuse to partner down, as I already explained. Basic evolutionary behaviour among mammals. Humans aren't that special in that regard.

Now if the other partner is the main earner, obviously it makes sense to let this partner bring the main income.

@ostream There is no proof that this is because of education. That's where unis these days start from, as in ideology, not as in conclusion. That's why the whole gender ideology is an unscientific hoax.

However, there are always people who are different, and these are what equality of opportunity is geared towards. Such as women who care about tech and want to be devs - and it's good that for them, the options are there.

It's just that this will never be 50%.

@Fast-Nop partnering "down" would be nearly impossible considering that they were second sex until very recently. There was no man "less" than a woman for centuries.

@NoMad A female noble was always above a male peasant, and a royal female above a noble man of lesser rank. For centuries.

Also, Western society was already on equal footing (of opportunity) when your generation was not even born yet.

@ostream The academic institution in that domain isn't smart. It's a fraud that tailrides its ideology on the scientific image unis used to have. At least in the US, it's also a commercial fraud handing out useless degrees for real money - plunging gullible students into life long debt.

@Fast-Nop same iranian culture you refered to, is heavily patriarchal. One reason why women study is to escape, as far as I've heard and I do have friends who still try very hard to not go back to Iran even if it is by making themselves more valuable to western societies. (Aka more education)

Also because, and I quote from a friend currently living there: "shit is so expensive here, and income's too low; no one can live on one person's salary".

@Fast-Nop you cannot wipe inequality in one generation and by one law change. And royal women were never above peasant men. Even royal women lost everything after their husbands died.

@NoMad And you don't wonder how it comes that women even CAN study tech stuff in a patriarchic society?

The other half, with the economic pressure, is exactly what I argued. Economic constraints take away effective freedom of choice because you can only choose among what you can make a living with.

@NoMad Both claims are nonsense. See e.g. the struggle between queen Elizabeth and Mary Stuart. Females on both sides, remarkably.

@Fast-Nop yeah but they still can't become mechanical engineers. Lol. The issue is not how to force women into tech, best-korea style. The issue is why it is not an attractive option to women who can choose.

@NoMad Because for most people, men and women, it is pretty weird to sit in front of a computer all day, reading arcane documentation and hacking even more arcane shit back into the machine, with the only upsides of having coffee and not having to do real work.

@Fast-Nop both in a place because the king couldn't produce one male heir? AKA where there was no man?

Also Elizabeth never married otherwise she'd lose throne.

@Fast-Nop sure but you get paid. Isn't that the main reason for most men?

@ostream oh you mean until they monetized abuse and employed women and men for the same purpose ? I want the ideal not the lifetime channel. Bystander apathy is a symptom of a much deeper problem as i just mentioned. In a civilized society that would be punished. Unfortunately in this civilized society that sort of thing has more and more been the result of very very damaged women occluding the real victims by actually staging these things to happen so they could experience the catharsis related to destroying a male they drove crazy. The idea that men are the only source of evil in this society is utter bunk we have child murderers evil women who sell their children into the sex industry and get off on this and a variety of other hideous personality types that are growing more and more prevalent in men and women both. The idea that we can’t fix our system to enable the woman to leave if she decided to stay home or that staying home is drudgery now is ridiculous

@NoMad Yeah but they didn't lose everything after the husband died. Mary Stuart in particular didn't lose against norms of society, she lost everything because she overplayed her hand against Elizabeth.

@Fast-Nop sidenote: are developers secretly a bit autistic? 🤔 the symptoms seem to align

@NoMad I could as well have taken other professions.

Actually, I would have wanted to do something else, that being space technology. But when I took up my studies, the USSR had just collapsed, and space was always a prestige project in the Cold War.

I figured that expenses would dwindle down, and I would not stand a chance as noob in a domain abundant with unemployed experienced folks.

184 comments later, and we are still having a battle of the sexes....

Tune in to tomorrow episode for "why can't men be nurses"

@Fast-Nop so I'm gathering the choice was actually economically motivated. And that is the case for most men. It is a cultural/traditional expectation that men make good money. But if you were born a woman you probably wouldn't make the same choice. Is that correct?

@C0D4 and pre-school teachers.

@NoMad I chose the next best thing where I saw the option to make a living, that being some tech stuff with computers.

That was at a time when computer hacking wasn't glorified like today. It was paid well in the industry, but at school, it was rather looked down upon. Both by girls and boys.

If you even had a private computer in the late 80s, you were already different from the others, and with the urge for conformity, that wasn't a compliment.

@Fast-Nop yeah during an economic downturn try to find work in this country with a gap in your employment brought on by financial hardships

They want everybody to be perfectly positioned at all times

If not they try to arrest you if you’re in the street or expect you to take a job that won’t even begin to get you out of it

Americans greatly misrepresent the real problems here

The second it takes to fall can take years to recover from if you’re not lucky family values are shit and people play along with our two dominant nazi party variants keeping us fighting about dumb shit like this while one of those does nothing to make the country better just more convoluted and the other sits and defends its right to hold onto all the money and deny people basic human dignity who take that one paycheck plunge into poverty

@NoMad mainly because they’d likely be pedophiles lol

@dUcKtYpEd wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Lol

@Fast-Nop But wouldn't it be nice to do what you actually liked? If equality was a thing, you didn't have to worry about being financially capable for your entire life. Wouldn't it be nice if your wife, for example, could pay the living expenses while you studied or became qualified in your field of interest?

@Fast-Nop you're right, they should be hot black dudes, preferably wearing revealing clothing.

@dUcKtYpEd nah it's modern life. Got a friend who's a theater director and they said a similar thing about theater the other day.

Is it possible that modern life is making all of us a bit sick?
And that's my theory thanks for listening to my ted talk. 🤪

@NoMad personally I’d love that but often that’s not how it works out lol besides one of the issues growing in this country that you see all the time is that our country embraces employment volatility

Besides most women dump their husbands when they do poorly for awhile speaking of studies

@NoMad when you are speaking of equality you have to mention which one: opportunity or outcome. Those are mutually exclusive types.

@dUcKtYpEd oh damn. I've mentioned similar thought earlier... And I do believe I have some autistic condition myself.

@NoMad and honestly most women would appear to want a man that can take care of them
Unless they’re really sexy

@MadMadMadMrMim I do agree that Americans tend to represent domestic problems as worldwide ones, while the problems aren't that prominent worldwide.

@dUcKtYpEd he's fake 😱

@iiii Nono we tend to lie through our teeth to avoid fixing the root problems lol because no one well positioned wants those problems fixed because they benefit from them in some way

@dUcKtYpEd FYI, Asperger's is no longer a subject of diagnosis (it comes down to ASD, which a few people here seem to think can be diagnosed purely based on someone's comments).
And many of the diagnosis has been studied in mostly males (ASD and ADHD being notable for this), so it's more diagnosed in males.

@dUcKtYpEd Yeah, and it's just one of a few disorders/conditions that disappeared or got absorbed by others (ADD being the other one I know of).

@iiii it was a joke LOL

@NoMad I wouldn't ask for such a thing. In a partnership, both sides need to be able to care for the other one if the shit hits the fan, and that includes the financial side.

At least, that's how I want to live. I'm not willing to drop my part of that mutual insurance, nor would I accept a woman who is either unwilling to do that, or as per her life decisions, unable. If the ability changes lateron, such as by an accident, that's fate.

Also, I'm opposed to equal income for everyone because demand and price drive career decisions so that you won't end up with a whole economy of liberal artists. There's always work that isn't nice, but necessary.

@Nanos Can relate...

@electrineer I could not agree with that more

.

🙇‍♂️🍿🍿🍿
WHAT did I just miss? A recent rant with 200+ comments, that is!

I just got like, 5 different forms of cancer reading all of this... I was sure I was on devRant, apparently this is Twitter lmao XD XD XD XD

I just lost, like 5 out of my last 7 brain cells lol

@ostream so was that you or just supposed to be you ?

I lost while reading this thread.

I'm quite sure everyone else will lose too.

@electrineer You mean you lost the game?

so they fuck everything up and rewind us to the most ridiculous time period that ever existed and then just keep ratcheting it up and making it queerer.

what a waste of goddamn time.

@GiddyNaya aww cute deer

Imagine fucking discussing stuff with people online.
Nobody gives a fuck about your opinions so just shut up meine fresse nochmal!

Also 🍿🍿🍿

Rolling in on day 2.

Anyone would think @theAbbie was OP from down here.

@C0D4 yep. Back then. He stopped being a douchebag a while ago and he's pretty chill.

@C0D4 god I hate tumble weeds they always rolled by at ironic moments

Onlyfans pays more with less effort. Why would any girl even TRY to learn dev ?

@NoToJavaScript Because already as kid, she was curious how shit actually works. True story with Dr. Lisa Su, CEO of AMD. Her PhD is no BS either, it's in hardcore EE. That she earns millions per year (and deserves every cent of it) is just a side-effect of that initial curiosity.

Not enough brain juice.

Speaking of which - Su chose EE over CS as master because she thought EE was harder. She graduated with a master in 1991.

Note that this was 30 years ago, and I can tell you that EE was pretty much a men-only show (it still is). No cozy group talk stuff, just hard science, hard math (first semester EE exam failure rate: nearly 90%), and it only gets worse over the first six semesters.

Even if you are talented, that alone doesn't cut it - these studies don't leave much room for partying, they're a full-time job. Actually more than that.

Su went through that because she wanted it hard. I went through it because I hadn't known and didn't have any backup plan.

@Fast-Nop

One case of success, a prodigy. So you're saying all women must be prodigy to have the right to be in the field? I mean, apparently you had the same training and you're arguing with people on internet without fearing any consequences, so clearly you got nowhere in life despite going down the same road as her. So who had the lower bar and easy entry here?

The more you talk, the more you're making it clear how deeply sexist you are tbh. You are a sound dude otherwise tho.

Jesus god still ???
Here watch this

https://youtu.be/aZTbtTmGsws

@Berkmann18 someone's comments are their honest behavior. I've seen scientists literally use comments online for studies of social behavior and norm. And recently for mental health issues too:

https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/...

Plus, antisocial behavior is particularly easier observed online, due to sense of anonymity and freedom.

@NoMad The point is that this was 30 years ago. Already back then, working through got you somewhere - and complaining didn't, doesn't, and won't. She had the right motivation, curiosity about tech, that's why I regard her as a fellow.

Obviously, not everyone will make it to a CEO job just based on that, and I personally am unwilling to even invest the time I'd need to make any sort of serious career advancement because I value work-life-balance more. My priorities are exactly what most women also would choose (statistically), and I get the same result out of it.

The sexist one here, literally, is you - not because of your values, but because your world view revolves around having a dick or a cunt. That's also how you can come up with the absurdity of labelling admiration for Dr. Lisa Su as sexism.

@Fast-Nop I'd like to put to vote how sexist women in the audience think your views are, but unfortunately we do not even have enough women in the audience for such a vote. And I know for sure you are incapable of seeing the issue here.

@NoMad yeah but people don’t always view it as real and their reactions still can show people engaging in socially desirable behaviors to conform

@NoMad harder to weed out deceit online

@NoMad Voting is a mechanism for legitimation, not for finding truth. That's an error of category.

My hint for you: you have all opportunities like hardly any generation before you, but if all you are able to make out of that is complaining, you will fail. This world is for doers, not complainers.

Note that I don't complain about me not making career because that's not what I prioritise in the first place. In terms of minimising the hours for the money I earn, I consider myself pretty successful.

@Fast-Nop well, you've been complaining about how white men particularly are discriminated against, and yet you've failed to do anything about it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@NoMad Haha good point! Well, I did choose accordingly. In my company, we are actually diverse, but not through an anti-male sexist and anti-white racist woketard HR. I let companies with such HR policies just drown, because you know: "get woke, go broke" is a thing.

In my company, it's like it should be, that nobody gives a fuck, which is also why it's normal in engineering to run around with metal shirts like it's Wacken.

@C0D4 There is a difference, the OP isn't even participating in the comments, it's just people arguing among themselves, I atleast participated in comments to keep the flame alive.

@NoMad + @Fast-Nop, go get a room already 😅

@theabbie true, this is a let it sail into the sunset and see what fiery ending we get.

@C0D4 get a room and do what? Play Django? Sexism is a turn off at best.

🍿🦌🍿🐘🍿🐂

@NoMad depending some women like being teased with a challenge to their supposed power dynamic

@NoMad yet again you are stuck with your eyes veiled by labels and not reality. Believing in a fantastic dream is nice, but mixing a dream with reality is not. Do you want to be one of the Carens who are so deep in sociopathic delusion that only a bullet can make them useful to society?

@TeachMeCode meaning? If you're so better than us, do share the wisdom.

@NoMad nah just a joke from giddynaya ‘s cute deer eating popcorn meme. I got no wisdom to share other than people should be hired based on what they can do

@TeachMeCode I agree with you on that people "should" be hired based on their capabilities but we all know in reality people with prejudices make that really hard.

@NoMad I agree, I’m a white non hispanic male dev and i agree! It sucks talented people are denied due to ancestry or gender in favor of people of the “right” gender or ancestry. I’m an equal opportunity type, if I think you can do the job I’ll be happy to be with you regardless of owning a dick or ancestry from some piece of land

@TeachMeCode oh, but those are straight forward discrimination. You have the hidden one too where you don't fit the job because you don't have short cut hair (and that's "unprofessional", I've been told) or because your voice pitch or accent annoys the guys. Or just because your presence makes the guys uncomfortable because they feel like they can't make sexist jokes openly anymore. People with prejudice make all sorts of excuses to justify that they're not indeed prejudiced and discriminating.

@NoMad well my hair is short and I have a very low voice (in fact, I pronounce “the” as “da” or “with” as “wit” so I sound pretty dumb lol I guess it’s a New York thing).

@TeachMeCode it's ok to be who you are. Lol.

I'm just saying, such unnecessary requirements usually mean to exclude people who don't "look/sound/feel/behave like us". (Us being whatever is majority.)

@NoMad absolutely true

There'll always be "discrimination". Sadly being able to communicate and highly collaborate with people is not easy. There is a lot of ineffable stuff (humans being humans).

Now what is crazy is the level of stress and fear of being " replaced" by "less capable people". Now a shit ton of things are crazy in the US... So....

@NoMad I've gone through the diagnosis and did some pretty extensive research on it and I can guarantee you that ASD isn't one of the conditions that can be spotted solely via text, you can spot signs of it for sure, but the diagnosis (I'm talking about the full one that includes ADOS, ADI and psychological assessments) an *require* in-person assessment.

And it's tiring to see the huge of people reducing ASD, ADHD and OCD to small aspects that are often not indicative of the condition and just being plain ignorant about what it really means to have either of them, and that there's no such thing as "a bit autistic/ADHD/OCD" (same goes for Tourettes, DID, Pure O, etc).

As for anti-social behaviour, there are many conditions that would align more closely to that than ASD. Speaking as someone diagnosed with it who knows people on the Dark Triad who would likely have APD (Antisocial Personality Disorder) but not ASD.

@jotamontecino You say this and it reminds me of various people from the UK, France, USA (and probably more) that were so afraid of immigrants "taking their jobs", but I digress.

@Berkmann18 oh sure. I never argued on "solely". Ofc, a diagnosis is more wholesome.

But yeah, occasionally you can see clear tendencies for one disorder or condition in the way ppl interact online. Might be a mask for other things tho. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I do wonder tho, if we feed a neural network messages people send their closest friends and family, would it spot serious mental health issues? I think we might be able to do that with personal journal, but would the messages also point at the same direction?

@Berkmann18 if you have a low-level job, you should be fucking afraid! Our great neo-liberal paradigm incentives companies to search for an always lower cost on "operations".

But let's be clear if you have a low-level job in the IT industry the offshore boom should be way scarier. And wait for the no-cost stuff to recreate an " integration" low-level...

@NoMad That's a good point and yeah, people could be masking (in the autistic way or manipulative way) or just putting on a character.

You could try feeding an ANN, messages from someone to their closest friends and relatives but I can immediately see that the result could be in the "correlation != causation" territory (with some number of confounders), especially with the numerous variables (going from if any of the people have a disorder/disability/condition, upbringing, culture, emotional intelligence to emergencies). I mean, there will surely be interesting insights but the level of control on all those variables could be really expensive.

As for the journal, well, there are many types such as gratitude, achievement/planning, emotional-dump (or whatever that's called) so you'll need to check for the relevant type.

It will definitely be interesting to do, provided there's enough data to account for everything.

@jotamontecino True, but here's the funny thing (at least from what I saw first hand in France and the UK), many of those "they are gonna take r jobs" people don't want to do low-end/low-level jobs (like cleaning, dealing with rubbish, washing windows, ...) and yet complain when people (mostly immigrants) fill in such vacancies.

@C0D4 I find strong women attractive, not feminists.

@Berkmann18 actually, on a second thought that won't be doable. It can't be unsupervised, so you need diagnosis that you can count on, therefore cross examining the participants. That is already invasive as fuck. reading their journals and personal correspondence on top of that, I don't think that'd be even ethical to do so.

@Nanos 🤨 wow! Didn't thought it was a thing to be paid to be like that.

@NoMad Yeah, that's true, and you'll also either have to hope subjects went through all the diagnosis (given people can have a mix or cocktail of them) or pay a massive amount of money to specialists to assess each subject will take ages.
Plus, with GDPR (and ethics, as you mentioned), it will be a nightmare.

I didn’t have patience to read all the comments why that many women aren’t in tech

I am gonna just chip in with what i think the reason is

1. They doubt there ability ( may be not encouraged enough, due to lack of role models )
2. Most of them simply don’t what to its boring to them which is ok.

Irony is that term software engineering was actually coined by a women in MIT 😅

I have adhd, diagnosed after extensive evaluations and on meds. They work great thus far but adhd is a pain in the ass at times

Well your mileage may vary. I take adderall xr and it really helps with focus, clarity and motivation, especially when it comes to dry tasks. adhd makes organizing code a bit of a pain bc I’m a scatter brain but it does allow me to come up with creative solutions when it works together with the meds. I’ll admit, my code can be clever but at times it’s a little on the spaghetti side. I try to clean it at least

When a thread had 17x the comments as it does likes, you know you are in for a wild ride.

@yesNo jeez this comment aged poorly

@retoor can you please explain your comment about ice cream?

@electrineer I could

@retoor would you

@electrineer let me tell you about the donut first

@retoor please do!

@electrineer * Netflix asks if we're still watching *

@retoor <hartman>A jelly donut?!</hartman>

@Fast-Nop like the ones you see on TV

@retoor What I meant with the Hartman reference: https://youtu.be/k4eMhddTPg4?t=62

@retoor did you even fall into my troll?

@electrineer what troll?

Do you fall in mine?

@retoor did you scroll through this endless thread trying to find your comment?

Waiting for the thread to flame up again 🍿

@ostream Yeah, it's 2023, stupid shit is still stupid shit, and you are still a dumbass who refuses to take his meds before posting. So what?

@electrineer who's trolling who? 😁